More and more I realize it's Pay2Win

So definitions are fluid? So... what's the point of things like dictionaries? Don't they record definitions?

You know... things which have been defined rather than different people making them up as they go along to suit their arguments?

I agree, a completely undeveloped character will be at a disadvantage facing a vehicle. This has nothing to do with pay 2 win.

It's almost as if they want you to invest both time and money into the game!

HOW DARE THEY! It's not as if servers cost anything to run! and they developed the game in their spare time for free! and all the support staff are volunteers! Why do they even need the money?!

Ah, the entitlement generation.

False. With TTKs as low as this game it has a limited effect in many situations, including most of the situations in infantry battles (vehicle weapons are more of an upgrade than infantry weapons)

Accurate as this info is, it has nothing to do with anything.

Actually, a hovering target is simple enough to hit if you are within range, but generally I agree. Again, nothing to do with anything else though.

No, I'm willing to pay some money for the entertainment that I have had and to keep the servers paid for.

A triple SC sale and then an item sale means you are paying next to nothing for a weapon, and this is far greater value than other entertainment. How much would a single evening at the cinema cost? A single meal out? A single night of drinking?

The game is far from perfect, but I don;t refuse to pay for the entertainment that I'm getting.

So? A few dollars go towards the costs of the server. END OF THE WORLD!!!

Seriously, look at the cost of a weapon when SC is on sale, then add in the weapon being on sale too (for the tight people who want to spend as little as possible). The cheapest ways are obviously the least convenient, they involve waiting for sales.

You also seem to misunderstand the burden of proof, and who it applies to.

I didn't claim anyone was the majority. You are the one making unsubstantiated claims.

And you didn't just say the majority bought SC, you said this:

Playerbase, by smed would mean everybody who has made an account? Or everybody who has downloaded the game? What about the people that have played the game within the last week, how much % of those people have bought SC. A lot of people have quit this gmae, many will just try this game for the first few levels. Also people can have multiple characters. A lot of those are factors and you don't know how Smed judges "playbase" it could be every character that was ever made. If everybody has made 3 characters that's a lot of playerbase... We just don't know....

Well, on Connery air is usually not much of a problem in "Platoons detected" area's...Sure there are air but it's never really a problem it's usually just target practice. and lib's are 1k meters in the sky out of AA max hit range, but they can't render any ground infantry anyways so it's whatever we're useless to them and they're useless to us. I am curious though you say it barely scratches lib's.... well are you lone wolfing? cuz 3,4,5 dual maxes(Or 10 people on maxes focus firing 1 Lib) it will either fly away or die very fast. Now I say 10 maxes because if people don't invest in the second burster 5 dual burster = 10 players on free burster, however the more players the harder it is to focus fire if there are air squads, what you going to do? Shoot the guy to the right? Shoot to the left? Shoot.. up? Lol you just can't focus fire so more people harder it is to get things done.

No it's not that I want to rant about vehicles or any "OP" the fact is there are counters to these things, however they all require A LOT Of time or 7 dollars.. YOu don't just spend 7 dollars and you can take on a squad of tanks, you need your squad mates to it, the pug's to do it, platoons to do it, outfits to do it. Look at ESF's remember the first 1-2 weeks? EVRYBODY WAS QQ'ING ABOUT THEM EVERYBODY ALL EVERY BODY EVERY ONE the forums were crazy!!!! It wasn't the nerf that made air "balanced" it was the fact that no one had AA... The first week or 2 I didn't even know what an AA max was... I can't even recall hearing the sound of a burster and it has a really unique sound too it also...

I realized something there aren't too many "OP" things in this game. It's the fact that people haven't payed for the counter too this "OP" If everyone on the battle field had a lock-on tank rocket launcher, everyone had C-4 or tank mines... you think Tank's would pose as great of a threat as they do now? If all our vanguards had the damage reduction shield you think that wouldn't have an effect on the fight?

By the way I may have used 300-400 certs on stuff I don't really use often, and that's at the maximum. I think I invested about 230 certs into my SAW that I do not use anymore, and some other default weaponry that I invested into addon's however the other 11k certs are spent on things that are mandatory, health armor or flak armor for my HA, or night vision scopes for my EM1 Or GD-7f or my x1 vision during day time, or my prox mines... all that stuff I use em all the time. If I spawn a reaver I need all those certs that I used on it for protection, or the ability to see ground enemies running to better predict their movements. I haven't really wasted many certs and I still have very little..

Anti-air is one thing: you need several MAXs or for the air to be low enough for small-arms or vehicle weapons to be effective against them.
However, every player is capable of swapping to a HA, MAX, or tank in order to kill vehicles.

I agree, a completely undeveloped character will be at a disadvantage facing a vehicle. This has nothing to do with pay 2 win.

This is not a 1v1 game. This is a team game. It doesn't matter if you have100,200 heavies in the base with the default rocket vs 10,20,30 default tanks the tanks will rofl stomp. to counter this you need to invest, you also need a whole organized group, you need C-4 all different things just to handle this tank column

You fail to understand a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of anything I am saying. Ok this is complex please try to expand your mind just a little. To counter vehicles, not 1 vehicle not 2vehicle this is a team game. There will be multiple tanks, 10,20,30,40,50 tanks in these platoons. Ok So how do you counter that ? you need C-4, lock on rockets, tank mines..Anti tank maxes, anti-tank tanks. A whole bunch of different things to counter this. Now I ask you do a lot of people have this? Since these things are bought with a lot of grinding, or SC do people have them?

You can be assisting in killing these tanks but again this is a TEAM game you need people to have these weapons.. If they don't have it, it's not really balanced. if something isn't balanced and the other team is abusing the fact you don't have these weapon's therefor you're unable to counter it. They're winning because you don't have it. the crucial things that make this game balanced NEED TO BE BOUGHT. WHY DO YOU THINK ESF'S WERE OP In the first 1-2 weeks? No... one...had...AA....No... one.... had....AA..

I know you'll probably argue that the ESF's got nerfed.. however not the damage just the AOE that the max damage is registered at... Very very small nerf however are ESF's causing as much of a problem? Are the forums blowing up with "ROCKET PODS OP" no... many people have AA maxes therefor it's not a problem. If you remove AA maxes from the game they will become a problem again. If people don't have the weaponry to combat tanks they become OP... It's unbalanced because you can't expect people to buy these things so when the crucial weaponry that balances the game is being sold for cash. and not everyone has them by default it becomes an imbalance. Therefor people have to invest time to balance it... untill you balance it the opposing team capitalizing on the fact that you don't have the weaponry to combat it will always be "winning"

I am not saying I don't want to give SOE money and I am not saying they don't deserve money, but The...... crucial.... weaponry..... for.....balance..... is....... being..... sold........ for..... money...... which.... is.......mandatory......for..... balance...... do.... you.... see...... what..... i ..... am.... talking.... about..... or...... any....... clue............as.............to........what....... i ........am............talking............about?



False. With TTKs as low as this game it has a limited effect in many situations, including most of the situations in infantry battles (vehicle weapons are more of an upgrade than infantry weapons)

Edit : you also seem to still be thinking there are infantry battles, I mean of course there are.. but in big battles? nah not really... the faction with the largest amount of vehicles are winning. If you really want to see what I am talking about... taking a few hours out of your day . go to Connery, go to Zurvan amp station then ask yourself... "why can't I counter this" "how do I counter this" then you should begin to think a little bit of what I am talking about..

The point I am trying to make about talking about AA maxes is the fact that they play a big role in balancing, with no AA air rules... hence week 1 and 2? Ikeep talking about balance I keep talking about week 1-2 but you just can't apply any of this into anything I am saying for what ever reason you just choose not to comprehend anything I am saying, I think you know balance is an issue but you don't think balance is an issue but this topic was based off the fact that.. it's so hard to kill 10,20,30,40,50 tank columns... Without investing a lot of money... So going back to the beginning If you don't invest money you can't "win" you can't beat the tanks you can't beat your enemy if you can't beat them doesn't that mean you're losing? if you get pushed to Warpgate are you winning?

In order to balance the game you need to have the weapons. Not just 1 people a group of people. the more tanks the more defense. the more defense the more weaponry. the more weaponry the more money. if something is being sold for cash the less chance people will buy it(especially if its a single purpose weapon like the AA burster, a lot won't buy it cuz wtf you going to do with it? just shoot air, you invest so much time just to shoot air? Single purpose **** is highly unlike to be sought after or "wanted" multi purpose **** will always be sought after. Not single purpose **** wtf 7 dollars for fckn stupid falcon cannot kill air or infantry stupid stupid stupid. and this is all being sold

Yeah absolutely however you need certain kind of tanks, you need, certain types of rockets, and max idk man they die just as quick as HA's in these huge battles. See I wouldn't complain so much if there were just.. 3,4,5,6,7 tanks in a squad... These platoons roll deep 10,20,30,40,50 tanks surrounding a base or it may be 50 meters infront of you waiting for your outer shields to come down....When there are that many.. you take 1 step into a tower, or outside a shield and you evaporate. You need a combination of things to counter act that zerg, however it all requires cash, or investing a lot of hours into grinding these crucial items for balancing purposes. everybody needs to cooperate too it's very complicating

My point is that you don't. All MAXs can equip an AV weapon as base. All HA have one as default. All MBT guns are effective against vehicles.
You can choose to spend SC to get a bit better at killing vehicles at the cost of less good against other targets, but by default, weapons that can destroy vehicles are available.

Against a huge column of tanks, even Certed SC upgrades aren't going to help you.

I can see this is pointless, you're back to talking about infantry vs. vehicle balance as if that has any relevance to whether a game is pay 2 win.

This is not a discussion, it's a propaganda thread where anyone who disagrees is called stupid and has the same irrelevant posts repeatedly made.At no point did I claim balance is based on 1 vs. 1, but once again where the facts don't fit your argument you just ignore them.

Well, enjoy your thread.

Wrong, everything OP'er crys about is to do with balance, has nothing to do with money and the game is not pay2win.

"I agree, a completely undeveloped character will be at a disadvantage facing a vehicle. This has nothing to do with pay 2 win."

I quote that because you said it. " a completely undeveloped character" you didn't sya characters, "will be at a disadvantage facing a vehicle" you didn't say vehicles you got me thinking that you're thinking of a 1v1 scenario. You aren't looking at the zerg you're looking at it simple 1v1. Infantry have the tools and play a big role in destroying tanks, if it's not destroying tanks it's assisting into destroying tanks, I.E. killing air, infantry trying to destroy generators, etc... and different weaponry give different results man come on dude you got to help me think too you like need everything explained thoroughly as if I need to explain someones life story exactly how it happened you need in depth explanations, oh my god dude you got to do some thinking bro... help me out here

And when you post something you should always watch your words carefully think about how the other person will interpret it... because I don't think you knew you said "character" Or "vehicle" the way I understood that comment was you're talking about a 1v1 scenario.. where this whole time we've been arguing I've been talking about zerg's...

So are you saying that tanks are OP or not OP? "Wrong, everything OP'er crys about is to do with balance" Because.. I am saying it's balanced. Just people don't invest money so it feels imbalanced... The tools are all here in the game... countering AA, Countering infantry, countering tanks, doesn't matter if it's 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80 tanks.. the tools are there to counter them.. They just cost 7 dollars each... My point being is that the CRUCIAL tools too balance are being sold for 7 dollars each... They're mostly single purpose.. meaning the desire for one isn't high... when i buy a burster I do it for the team.... the engineer behind me is getting more score per hour... I can't kill infantry with the stupid burster let alone tanks... making my statement about it being single purpose is a fact... If you release weapons with 1 purpose and the purpose isn't significant why would it be desired? That's why there's all these "AIR IS OP" Posts because people don't want to buy a burster... However if everyone in the game had a dual burster..... you think air would be a problem? Yeah i thought so.

There's no point watching your words when talking to someone who thinks that the definitions of things can be ignored and replaced as they see fit.

Regardless of what I say, you will take it to mean whatever suits you argument best. Just like you have done in just about all of your replies to me thus far.

I'm not commenting on balance at all, period. I'm saying the game is not pay2win.

Utterly false.

AA MAX has to specialise to the point of near-uselessness against infantry and ground vehicles while air can effectively fight them all. AA has to work together in a team while lone ESFs roflpod farm and 2 man liberators spam spawn points.

And as for actual counters, it's like rock, paper, scissors where paper and scissors are both beaten by rock and the only chance of winning is having more rocks than the enemy (air is the only hard counter to air, even though air is the counter to everything else too).

GtA rockets have pathetic hit detection and since the game update 1 seems to be so slow that most air can simply fly away from the HA and the rocket will not hit them.


The balance issues between air and ground are not caused by AA availability, but by the fact that SoE want AA to be a deterrent instead of a hard counter.

Well, I have an open mind towards many many things if the logic is there... your points you're making actually makes me think you play the forums more than you play on miller... this may not be true but you knowledge of zerg's are not up to standards to be trying to argue with my logic... Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be arguing with me and try to disprove anything I say just because I maybe using the term pay2win differently from your definition, even if I am using it wrong... The way I see it, it's similar to that maybe not your exact definition or the online definition but it's not like I'm calling an elephant a zebra... It's very similar. Also I cannot edit it.. so don't hate me for misusing the term... Like I said earlier if you proved a logical argument I would admit myself to being wrong of my judgement about this game. I am wrong with YOUR definition of P2W however that's all I can admit too... if that makes you happy. So If you just came on my post because you didn't like my definition of P2W and because you didn't like it, you wanted to get personal and spit your logic to counter act mines I think I deserve an apology.

Now try to look at this with an open mind don't intentionally cloud your mind just because you don't like me or you want to believe you're the smartest man the world has ever produced(and it's cool that you want to be the smartest man in the world dream big) =) but being smart is the ability to process information and analyze it thoroughly...
Dude you have 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 dual maxes, compared to 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 any reasonable number of air.. If they're close enough to hit they're going to die... ESF'S CANT EVEN HOVER with more than 2 maxes targeting them.. they need to do these random roflpod attacks that are so inaccurate a 1000 meter wall could dodge it. Ok a bit more exaggerated but when we're fighting for the crown man we got like 20 AA maxes on NC side surrounding the base if not more... you don't see much air around these parts bro not much air at all.. now if everyone in the game had AA maxes... i don't think anybody would even bother spawning air... Also you have piloted a lib? well I do I pilot and I gun... And we can't even come close to 500 meters up we usually have to go 800+ meters up then gradually come down to start rendering infantry ... then when some maxes realize im in hit range i need to run away... I do agree that air counters all... except for AA maxes and I said maxes not max...

Let me refer you back to week 1 and 2.. The forums blew up I was on the forums... because of the rocket pods thing I made my rocket pod QQ post because I was extremely ignorant.. however now I see how effective maxes are.... I can't make another air QQ post I need to make AA max QQ post or balance QQ post... because if everyone had AA maxes.. air wouldn't be a problem..

And if you're being camped at your spawn point and you have AA maxes... again with an ES not just max.. maxES you shouldn't be getting camped by air..it's 100% guaranteed because of tanks or infantry... Then you need to counter those... Bursters don't kill tanks and infantry.

Again, please look up "the burden of proof" to find out who should actually be providing some proof.

Having an open mind and making up what people say and what terms mean to suit your argument are not the same thing.

And your made up definition is completely different. "Being able to buy vehicle (or anti vehicle) weapons" is pretty much your argument for the game being pay 2 win.

I came into this propaganda thread because people who have yet to try the game may read this thread and think the game is actually pay 2 win, without realizing that you were in fact lying to them and that it's not pay 2 win at all.

I don't want people to not play the game because you don't know what pay 2 win means. Does anyone here want that?

:edit:

From your latest post I can also see that you are a pilot, which explains why you insist that AA is good enough (if not too good).

Ok thank you I have realized already that the internet definition is not my definition, however it's understandably similar I think you can agree?

Ok, I didn't know your definition of P2W in my mind that's how I saw it,I can't recall playing an actual P2W game. therefor I did not know. And yes "being able to buy vehicle(or anti vehicle) weapons" is similar to how I see it... To win bases and win the defense.. you need to have these crucial anti-weapons that all cost money. So basically in essence you need to pay to win... Well that was my logic however I understand that's not how the internet views Pay2Win. It's like you were complaining about earlier how Air is OP it's like rock but the rock counters the paper and scissors, etc etc.. however I tried to prove a point that when you have maxes air will run if you point and click... and I said maxes not max..

And yet another of these threads - for the umpteenth time the game is not Pay2Win. It is barely Pay2SaveTime.