What's a good op NC max build?

also just want to point out how slugs on automatics make no real sense from a practical standpoint ...
like that gun is for throwing out pellets as fast as possible and has a high kick up, how are you supposed to use slugs on that if not for limiting yourself in effective rpm?
automatics still require 8 to 10 pelletshots to down a planetman from 20 meters ..
beyond that it´s hopeless

now i retried maxshotguns ..... ... yea mattocks are the only sensible choice plain and simple .... .... it´s a joke .... ... a sad one ...
grinder has 18 rounds with no extended? yea you need half of that to down infantry at 20 meters .. ...

hacksaws with their 9 rounds default need to unload they magazine on that range ... it´s just pathetic ...

gorgons need 10 shots which is 1/4 of their mag
mattoks need 4 out of 12 so 1/3 .... ...

compare to that VS quasar with 50 shots per mag i still can kill 2 infantry at 50 meters .... even with gorgons ...


can we just agree that shotguns are simply bull effin scrap

max v max from 30 meters

gorgons with a full mag

vs quasar 60 shots so 1 1/5 from a 50 rounds mag ....

mattoks with 12 rounds per mag default need 2 full mags

scattercannons 9 rounds per mag ..... needed almost a whopping 5 mags worth of ammo ....


max v max at 15 meters

gorgons 30 rounds from 40
mattock 1 and a half mag of a 12 rounds mag
scattercannon 2 full mags with a 9 rounds mag

yea i still say mattocks should get slugs
grinder as well being kinda a autocannon simmilar to gorgons but harder hitting per bullet at a slower rate
hacksaw and scattercannon should stay as the nc max shotguns and need more default ammo
but all of them need more damage at range to be somewhat in line with the other max weapons ...




edit: ... uuuummmmm ... hacksaws from 30 meters ....... i had to unload ALL the friggin ammo to kill a max ...
only at 8 meters i need one reload .....
seriously .... you call THIS in line?

which is the most balanced?
before, NC had, compared to TR and VS:
massive CQC damage, far less range, far less sustain, far more time reloading, far less accuracy.
1 big advantage for EVERYTHING ELSE being worse, a tradeoff, BALANCE.

now we have:
similar CQC damage, even less range than before, far less sustain, far more time reloading, far less accuracy.
so the only thing that they did well, the reason that they did everything else terribly as a tradeoff has been removed,
and yet all of those tradeoffs remain.

and you honestly consider this to be more balanced?
also i say that prenerf maxes had no range, because imho the devs should have removed slugs,
slugs were a bad idea, NC maxes were king of CQC and slugs were giving them more range than they should have had.
without slugs we had a unit that was really good at spitting distance and literally worse at everything else,
BALANCE.

it is perfectly balanced for one unit to be better at one thing and worse at literally everything else as a tradeoff.
it is NOT balanced for one unit to be worse at absolutely everything except one thing that it does similarly.

i just want to mention that with any VS or TR max weapon i only needed one reload from 30 meters to kill a max ..
i mean i didn´t even talk about ttk ... but just the ammount of reloads at range further than 8 meters should be MORE THAN CLEARLY telling how inferior NC maxweapons are ...

and again ... i am NOT an NC main ... it was the faction i started with, yes but i mostly play VS .. AND occassionaly TR ... ... i rotate between all the dang factions ..

Rather than making current shotguns into an autocannon I would completely build one from scratch. Example:
First shots accurate but with a high bloom. Shots penetrate enemies. Each shot deals 200 damage for 400 total per dual shot. ROF can be managed to achieve a similar DPS as other MAX's.
The high accuracy make them solid weapons for ranged trigger disciplined fire. Continuous fire would quickly cause massive COF's making them less capable at shorter ranges as a trade-off (up until facehugger range where they equal the others again). The penetrate ability is fun but not terribly useful most of the time, just a nice gadget to set it apart and make that autocannon feel a bit more real.

could also be a railgun (maybe with a chargedelay cause hey that is fun )
i made the slugsuggestions on the mattock and grinder for resource reasons ..
the max could use some more options that are similar to or like es and ns topguns anyway ...

Tell me, dear planetsider, exactly what else are slugs on a shotgun good for if not for reducing the penalties of buckshot on a shotgun? They effectively make for bad semi-automatic rifles instead of bad double-RNG-cannons.

At some point I'm going to have to add an "anecdotal evidence" counter in my signature. Probably replace the poll, given all of two people have ever voted on it so far. I'm not saying anecdotal evidence is always bad or always worthless, but it ought to be labeled as anecdotal and not toted as objective evidence. You may have done well with them, but it doesn't make them good. I've pulled off some pretty impressive Magscatter assassinations I would not have thought possible had I not done them myself, but that doesn't make the Magscatter good.

Slugs enabled a longer range but did not make them truly competitive at such ranges. Buckshot did not perform well at range either, hence why slugs were so popular.

Pounders were amazing at both AI and AV so obviously they were spammed relentlessly. But with Ravens being quite decent against armour, why would the NC use Gorgons for AV? The only reason to pull them at that point would be to act as AI.

The data shows a trend, not a reason. The data also shows the directive pistols are some of the best pistols in the game, better even than all seven [] of the Commissioners and guess what? They're not. This is an example of how the number of users can influence a weapon's performance stats.

The stats also show the Jackhammer is superior to the Piston (auto-shotgun), and guess what? That's right, it's not. This is an example of how a weapon's required platform can influence a weapon's performance stats.

Why are you trying to make it look like I disagree with a statement I just made myself? As for bad semi-automatics, that's a highly subjective claim, and I wouldn't equate them to standard semi-auto rifles much for the same reason comparing scattercannons to shotguns for standard infantry is nonsense. Different platforms, you see?

As for anecdotes, I was responding to your claims based on personal experience/speaking on behalf of NC players. Clearly both my statement and yours are false since 1) not all who use slugs used them because they felt them were great 2) not all players used them because they were the only option.

It is interesting how you speak of being objective and anecdotes when the data we have on the pre-nerf MAX and how it over-performed in KDR/KPU/Kills. If let's say only KDR was higher then it would be reasonable to suggest there might be more to it but not all three. That's not just a trend, that's a pattern.

Directive weapons over-perform for obvious reasons, i.e. a smaller pool of players with tons of experience. Slugs on the other hand is an attachment which added more flexibility to a platform which was uniquely powerful in CQC.

Why are you trying to hide from your own statements? Slugs deal less damage than a full buckshot and can't hit multiple opponents or score partial hits. In exchange they only go through one round of CoF games and give more range by controlling where the damage goes at bit more than with buckshot.

If a player were to use slugs in point blank range he'd be worse off than buckshot.

Bad semi-autos is fairly subjective, but at the same time they become the least accurate and shortest range semi-auto cannons that would deal less damage than a regular semi-auto rifle can. If given the choice to have two pre-nerf slugged shotguns or one semi-automatic rifle of one's choice, very few would take the shotguns. Most would have a Vandal or Bishop, or even an Impetus or Shadow. Probably not a Warden.

I disagree with regards to the platform. The base MAX is overpowered in my opinion, but even with TR's or VS' MGs they'd be better off with a single pistol in some cases if not just a regular LMG. Compared to other MAX guns or just infantry guns, either way the NC's shotguns are and were the worst slugs or no slugs. Regardless, do note I did not address the platform differences anyway. Consider them semi-auto cannons for the MAX it makes no difference.

My claims are not based on personal experience. As I've said before, I don't use MAXes and have almost never used MAXes. I didn't even have slugs on the single default shotgun I have. I say they are only good for negating the shotgun aspect because that's what a slug does. As above they are negative attachments in shotgun range, and as further above most of the time we are not fighting only in shotgun range. Hence why slugs being beneficial at range comes in as a factor.

This is a very common thing I see. The data is objective, the reason why the trend is shown is not. I'm not sure how to articulate this in a way that wouldn't be repeating myself, so here's an example I often use: There is a positive correlation between ice cream sales and murder rates. As one increases so does the other, and likewise the two decrease in unison as well.

This is objective.

Why this is the case is not. It could be that ice cream drives people to commit murder, but it's more likely that heat causes people to become more irritable than cold and that warmer temperatures generally allow for individuals to travel longer distances away from home and allows for more personal social interactions. Can't get into a fight with some guy in the park and beat him to death if you'd die of hypothermia before you got there.

This is not objective. There isn't a definitive explanation or objectively true observation to be made.

Hence why the Jackhammer scores better even though it's pretty much a flat worse weapon than the Piston.

Also "trend" and "pattern" are synonymous in this instance.

I chose the directive pistol because they see more use than the rare skinned versions of other pistols, while still seeing considerably less use than other sidearms. If you care, just check the differences between all the NS-15s. I think there's seven or eight of those too.

I decided to max out ordinance armour since I go after tanks and other armoured vehicles and often find myself getting a brick of C4 to the face. I can't decide if agis shield is good? I mean I don't see the point of it unless I use it to get close to somebody but I'm using falcon rockets so don't need to get close. I guess I could hide behind it at range? Or a last minuite defence stat while my team hides behind me. So I'm thinking emergency repair is better option?

Also what's the best implants? I currently use ocular shield ( anti stun,flash, concussion) and sweeper hud?

Is salvage good? Says if I mele enemy max I get life? I mean if I actually get that close? But there isn't much else to choose from?

I wouldn't say negating as much as adding a different ammo type which opened up new strategic/tactical options.

I used it as mobile turret (shield + eng), removing surprised as all heck LAs, staying out of C4 range in general, the high alpha damage meant I could dunk HAs trying to rocket me since suddenly the "safe space" they thought they had wasn't, the alpha damage also got me a lot more kills on players peaking in and out of cover, aiming for high chest often mean one of the arms landing me a headshot, and generally just working better with the shield in general as it was easier to use it as an extension of physical cover. It rewards a more methodical style of play and having the option for both buck/slug is an advantage in of itself because of flexibility (which gets even better if you roll with a team and have a mix of them).

In short, why focus on what you lose over what you gain? To me, buck/slugs made the NC MAX are more complete unit since I could adapt to the fight ahead.

I thought this was common knowledge.

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With the ice cream / murder example. Yes, I agree on this and it was made exceedingly difficult by DBG to gauge the effect since they removed every aspect of range at the same time (reducing damage and removing slugs). The sensible thing would have been to simply remove slugs first and/or restrict it to certain weapons, maybe even rebalance one or two weapons (the least popular and most redundant options) and get some current data in before going all nerf happy.

What we can say for sure is the NC MAX used to over-perform and after a series of nerfs (in addition to general MAX nerfs) now the trends show it under-performs (and seeing much less use than the other factions). DGB would get a lot of more respect from me if they owned up to this and admitted they messed up on this one.

I'm sorry, that was me, I voted twice, I think...

I most certainly would say "negating," as that's exactly what it does. Can can dance around it and call it tactical or strategic but slugs still exist to remove the inherent penalties of buckshot.

The turret-style MAX sounds fairly effective, but does not require or even support the NC MAX over anther factions' MAX. At a distance rocket's fly too slow to be a major threat, and in shorter distances any MAX weapon would be a credible threat. The shield won't protect against a rocket at closer ranges unless it was already activated prior to firing.

I focus on the reason why a person would ever choose a shotgun in the first place, the main advantage of the weapon is being stripped away when using slugs. As I said, it just makes them worse semi-auto cannons with the only caveat be the increased range. It'd be like a special laser sight for the SAW which increased damage degradation and reduced the hipfire CoF. If I wanted a good hipfire I wouldn't take a weapon meant to do the opposite.

I imagine it is common knowledge, yes. Does that not support the argument against shotguns, that the popular attachment effectively nerfs the main advantage of the weapon?

I hate to keep repeating myself but in my opinion they should have just gone straight to machine guns instead. The shotguns just aren't working out for anyone.

I agree that they should just come out and admit that balance hasn't been good for the NC and never has been. Gotta just put their foot down, bit the bullet, and make a large impactful change for the better.

I gave you a list of how I've used them successfully. Since you haven't used them at all I do not feel you have much to add here, much less tell me what works and what doesn't. My list may be based on personal experience but your claims doesn't even have that.

You're focusing on the default ammo type's advantages while dismissing the advantages of another. I'm well aware there is a trade-off. That's kinda the point. I, too, would not use slugs if I wanted the innate advantages of buckshot. That being said, even with slugs you were a powerhouse in CQC with good aim but obviously not as powerful as with buckshot.

I'd be fine with machine guns. It would be cool if we at least had some options with shotguns (with and without slugs). We've already seen that they can do other stuff with weapons such as the Tengu and Horizon too. Plenty of ways to make each arm feel unique + being useful.

machineguns i feel are rather the realm of NS with gorgons (they should also get a walker imo ... .. and a fury type gun .... and maybe something like the halberd or AVmanaturret) ..

NC as a faction is about OOMPF in their weapons compared to the other 2 be that the jackhammer or the gausssaw ...
and imo the nc max should keep that .. that´s why i say that the shotgun and high bullet damagetrait should be split among the current four AI MAX weaponoptions while bringing them all more in line with the rest of the AI max weapons ..

Funnily enough, I don't need to be told how to point and click. That's about as much is needed and is even possible with slugged shotguns. I didn't actually realize that was a list, I thought you were just listing off things that the turret-style usage offered. Regardless, are these still not all things that could be done with only MGs?

Ah yes, the good old muh lived experiences. Who needs logic and numbers and stats when we can all just base reality off of our own subjective random observations of the surrounding world?

As always, I don't need to do something first hand to understand what to do. Personal experience is warped by the brain without it even realizing it in order to fit the world into a preconceived narrative it can survive in. Are you really making the argument that your personal experience invalidates everything I have to say?

Again, I'm focusing on the weapon type's advantages. No one picks up a shotgun because they want a slug rifle when they have an actual semi-automatic as an option. The only reason to use slugs on a shotgun (in PS2) is because they don't have a better option. Shotguns have inherent advantages with buckshot that aren't available on other weapon classes. Removing these advantages makes them worse versions of the weapons they're emulating.

I don't want to see any shotguns, but if everyone had the same NS set that'd be fine. MGs are just better almost universally and compared to the current set of shotguns...

You speak as if you're bring up numbers and logic when you're just pulling theorycrafted claims out of your behind based on nothing but your experiences with OTHER weapons in the game. Now if arguments from personal experience triggers you maybe you shouldn't use experiences outside of said experience and expect me to care about those. Especially since I made no effort whatsoever to hide the fact I was arguing from my experiences. Meanwhile you make assertion after assertion, saying "the only way/reason" people do X or Y. I guess we should all be thankful for you, Campagne, for telling us why we use slugs. We really had no idea we were giving up the advantages of the default shotgun. Oh man, I've been living a lie. Was it all a dream? Nothing matters or makes sense anymore.

As for your last point (bolded), no, of course not. I am a lot more likely to listen to someone who has experience versus someone who doesn't though and probably hold that person's opinion in higher esteem. If you can't deal with the fact I've used slugs willingly and successfully while being fully aware that I am giving up the default buckshot advantages for something else, that's your problem. I can only suggest being more open-minded and try things out before condemning them in the future.

fixed

A person making a claim based in numbers doesn't have to list said numbers if they are common knowledge or are otherwise readily available. I don't have to provide the detailed explanations of why 1/3 is greater than 1/4, nor do I have to list the raw numbers for the maximum damage of a spread compared to a slug, nor do I have to list the numerical probabilities of a spread pattern being favourable compared to the random placement of a slug within a crosshair.

As for logic, I don't know what you're expecting. As with the ice cream example, logic is used to justify a pattern with an unknown cause. Logic dictates ice cream does not instill a desire for murder though this cannot be proven. Logic also dictates a weapon with several large disadvantages and one major advantage which outperforms the inverse does not reach this performance because of the one advantage it has. A different weapon type requires a different method of use which alters the data as a direct result.

Again, no. Personal experience is not required to interpret invariable number sets. I don't need to know how to fly a plane to know how a plane is able to fly. I understand how shotguns, MAX machine guns, and semi-auto rifles mechanically behave in PS2 without ever using MAX weapons outside of the VR.

Personal experience arguments don't annoy me, they just don't support a position very well and certainly cannot support a position alone. They have a place in an argument but they are not the argument.

Hilariously, that's not my last point. Regardless, I don't think you're understanding me here. That, or you're making a strawman. I'm not saying buckshot is better or slugs are automatically worse, I'm saying the NC's MAX shotguns are and were so **** removing the only advantages of a shotgun made them better. And therefore, inferior to MAX MGs. As a result of this inferiority, player behavior must be adapted to create situations where the advantage is in favour of the MAX more often than general run-and-gun playstyles.

It all comes together. Gotta get one of those corkboards with little red threads tying it all together in super dramatic fashion. Or alternatively, just read the argument as it is presented.

Hey, ever notice how my replies are longer than the quoted posts, yet the replies to my responses just get shorter and shorter? I wonder why that might be...