(Long post) Quantitative proof that the rocklet rifle is unbalanced

This article shows that the rocklet rifle makes the Light Assault (LA) the most effective class/method of destroying sunderers, by cost, speed, and success chance: I do not make the claim that the LA is in any way unstoppable.
The following is factual, numerical comparison of the sunderer-destroying capability and cost of the rocklet rifle and the tank-busting weapons. (I didn’t waste much time doing this, so it’s not totally thorough)

Contents: Arguments #1, #2 & misc, refutations to objections.

Argument 1: Speed.
I spent time destroying sunderers in the VR Training room, noting how long it took to destroy normal and deployment shield (DS) sunderers by various means (Yes, I am aware that vehicles heal slowly there, but this is negligible and does not affect the results significantly – even if 3 seconds are subtracted from the vehicles’ times, the LA is still a strong competitor).
Here is a chart displaying the time in seconds taken to destroy a normal sunderer at medium-short range:
α – The Typhoon rocklets reduce a sunderer to so little health in 16s that it burns to death by the time the rifle has reloaded, meaning that even if you are killed or an engineer starts repairing the sunderer at second 16, either it will burn or you will be able to finish it off with the next round.


So here the LA can destroy a sunderer faster than a lightning with AP rounds, at roughly the same range, and beats the “Heavy” Assault (HA) by 8 seconds, even if the HA is using the highest damage rocket launcher.
The HA does not naturally carry enough rockets to get these times, so it must use the rocket pouch suit, forgoing armour.
For a DS sunderer, the situation is similarly obscene:

The LA is still faster than the HA, by at least 4 seconds.

An easy comparison can be made in the following tables (in order of ascending time):


α – same as above † -- 1 C4 only needs the player to be close-ranged for 1 second
§ -- the necessary rocket pouch adds 150 to the cost where 5 or 6 rockets are needed.


The Light Assault trooper is therefore faster at destroying sunderers than the “Heavy” Assault, DS or not. It is faster than a Lightning with AP rounds and the best ESF attack. If C4 is included, it is as fast as the Liberator Dalton or a Prowler with AP rounds.

Argument 2: Cert cost.
The chart for the cert cost:

The cert cost to be able to destroy a DS sunderer for an engineer is 1800, for 3 tank mines and the two mine-carrier suit upgrades. The requirement for an LA is 1200, 500 for the Typhoon rocklets and 700 for 2 C4 bricks. For an HA, the cost is 1700 certs, 1000 for the NS Decimator and 700 for the 2 C4 bricks.
For destroying a normal sunderer, all extra tank weapons cost 875 certs, while the Typhoon rocklets cost 500 certs, or 700 with 1 C4 brick, making the LA the one of the cheapest for destroying normal sunderers as well (and faster than the free tank cannons).

Therefore, the LA is the cheapest infantry class for disposing of a DS sunderer, and is cheaper than Lightnings, HAs, etc, against normal sunderers.

Extra arguments.
1) Light Assault troopers can equip armour when destroying sunderers, while “Heavy” Assaults need to use an ammo pouch – making the LA hands-down the best ranged sunderer destruction class. The same problem exists for engineers against the DS sunderer.

2) Light assault troops are much harder to spot than tanks or aircraft, which are fat and make loud noises, and HAs, which cannot fly onto nearby cover spots (which are always present near a deployed sunderer). This means that since they can fly, LAs are far more likely to reach a sunderer undetected and are therefore more likely to succeed in destroying it, whereas other classes can be run into by infantry leaving the sunderer.

3) LAs are much harder to hit than tanks or aircraft due to their agility – ducking and appearing somewhere else can be viable against the sunderer’s guns.

4) (Admittedly a rare case): LAs can attack a moving sunderer quite easily in cramped enough conditions because it can fly alongside for long enough to offload 2 C4 bricks. HAs stand no chance at this.

It is therefore safe to conclude that, in terms of speed, cost, and success chance, the LA excels beyond all other classes at destroying sunderers (the heart of most fights) with the current rocklet rifle. The main issue is that it is objectively better than the Heavy Assault for this purpose. Perhaps it is called the “Light” Assault trooper because it deals with the heavy jobs, like tank busting...

Refutations of predicted responses.
“16 seconds shooting a sunderer without being stopped should never happen”
--16 seconds is long enough in a small fight, especially if the nearest opponents don’t notice or are 10 seconds away – it takes enough time to locate the attacker if they’re good.
--That’s not the point. The point is that it far exceeds the ability of other classes.

“It’s not a big problem”
--This depends on what sort of game the developers want. Unbalanced items, like the original rocket pods, were changed. Games just aren’t as fun with unbalanced items.
--It shortens fights and reduces the strategic aspect of sunderer placement.
--It reduces the tank-busting role of other tank-busting classes.

“Get good/adapt”
--Adaptation means accepting that sunderers will simply not last long in a battle. It’s up to the devs; I’ll play either way, but unbalanced things just aren’t as fun.
--Quality of play doesn’t come into this, since it is a presentation of facts and not just a whinge.


This ought to be changed. Perhaps increasing the reload time for the Typhoon rocklets would be enough but, at the moment, it seems that I chose the wrong class for tank-busting.

I'm not buying this, since "Argument 1", cuz LA (currently on live) does not have enough Rocklet ammo in order to destroy a Sunderer, unless it's Typhoon ammo.

Pfff... i cant get it.
The rocklet launcher (typoon rockets) has serveral disadvantages that you just dont put down, like distance, ineffective vs everthing else, esp. moving targets and infantry.The ttk goes up by a lot when you tap-fire (needed for everthing past 20m).

All those vehicle guns you listed have an advantage: imune to small arm fire, more effective health, and range.
The heavy also can shoot up to 400 m effectivly on a deployed sundi.

LA are not killing more sundies, but they kill them without the need of crossbow/ubgl.

The cert costs are off! Engie needs 1k for AV turret, default launcher for heavy is as effective. So much more to discuss like Narnite cost comparison, sound (omg, you can hear jetpacks, and with souround sound you can also locate them?!!, teamplay, sensors...)

In my opinion something is wrong with the spawn meta: When i see a 96+ fight and only 1 Sundi... 47ppl were to lazy to bring one more! Maybe lower the no deploy zone created by sundies?

I agree but I don't think it's laziness. Surely it's not because hordes of Sunderers get ripped apart from the Rocklet.
It's because the game has been designed with a strong emphasis on kills and kdr: everything that is not strictly related with kills is not very popular in this game.

Even spawning a Sunderer.

Until we move away from this childish e-sport mentality you will always see this kind of behaviors.

I see what you're saying and yes, we definitely need more things that can pop sunderers faster!

@Kristan: My comparison was indeed using the Typhoon rocklet rifle upgrade. The extended bar is meant to go off the top of the chart since it is not possible.

@LtBomber1: Your objections are valid regarding the disadvantages, comparing the rocklet rifle to a tank. The tanks do take a lot more work, and this article is barely aimed at tanks. However, I consider the extra work required to destroy a tank to be offset slightly by the time it takes to destroy the sunderer - a lot of people will notice you and do something in that time... The sunderers I place are many times more often destroyed by an LA than any tank.
The cert cost objection: I did not include the AV turret because the time it takes (I did not time this) + having to stay in a sniper sweet spot means I didn't consider it to be worth including. (I will go and time it).

EDIT: I have just timed it and it took 19s for a normal sunderer and 32s for a DS sunderer. The engineer's cert cost is misleading in the chart. The AV turret is a competitor for the LA (though my main comparison is with the HA) and brings the cert cost to 1000.

@FLHuk: Maybe so, but in that case, HAs need an upgrade - when I place sunderers, I am so much happier if an HA attacks as opposed to an LA, simply because I have way more time and the HA is unlikely to be able to destroy the sunderer.

I could make some quantative proof that the HA is unbalanced with his shield, LMG and rocketlauncher, after which you would say "but what you describe is the HA's role!" after that I would point out that the LA's role, by lack of an actual light assault role, incudes sabotage of stationary positions including chokepoints and Sunderers.

Also, as others pointed out, you conveniently ignore things like effective range, chances of survival, (lack of) alternative roles, DPS when firing at range etc.

Nerf Sunderers!

Do the HA test again using the A2G lock on dumbfired. I think you'll be very surprised.

Off in the distance, you hear the shriek of a feral Infiltrator.

If by unbalanced you mean terribly crappy then yes I agree with you.

@Demigan: Indeed, I did make the assumption that the LA's intended role was not sunderer destruction... Is this wrong? If so, then the thread was in error. However, this info from the official game description:

suggests otherwise. The HA is designed for such a purpose.
The game info about an LA does not mention tank/sunderer busting. Perhaps it is outdated by 9 months?

I consider chance of survival to be directly linked to destruction time - surely an LA will live long enough to destroy the sunderer while slower classes will be stopped first?. In situations where effective range is relevant (so not loads of rock cover), I do admit that the AV turret is the better choice. The HA would still not be capable of destroying it fast enough.
In the situations where there is loads of cover, you will not be able to hit the thing from far enough to worry much about effective range.

@Ziggurat: I have tried using that. It got 23s. (My stat about the rocket launcher time should be a couple of seconds less)

[I am not out for loads of goodies for the HA; I do not even play as an HA]

Good, they need to make sundies easier to pop.

Like someone was saying, no one pulls them, and the reason is because a lot of people see 1 as enough. Once they're more vulnerable, people will start getting annoyed by their party getting crashed.

Once that happens, you will start seeing 2 or 3x...

When the rocket launcher was added to LAs i was slightly confused about it. LA current meta is high ground control, amp station shield assault and C4 the hell out of everything over the finiky terrain. HAs act as main go to dmg class, in particular launchers is the main trait.

I do not have any bias against HA or LA but i am pretty sure HA has to keep their *heavy weapons* trait. Maybe LAs could get some form of demo charges and C4 available on the same load out, that would make a bit more sense. demo charge slot 3, C4 in 4

A heavy can reliably destroy a vehicle at range behind cover with practice.
The Rocklets, need you to be closer, and unless firing in burst (which needs even closer ranges), can let the damage be repaired during the reload, or the LA is killed.
If the LA has cover to fire off the rocklets, before the Shield Sundy can recover or any Engineer can repair:
That's due to sundy placement; And lack of any defender engaging the enemy LA.

The LA isn't faster, it is simply capable of rapid elevation.
What is "fast enough" in terms of the heavy assault destroying it? It has 5 or so rockets, capable of being used at medium to long range.

In order to use the Jets, an LA in general is exposed, in order to deal the full damage, the LA must be exposed for the entire duration.
If you use burst fire beyond close-range, the rocklets will have a great chance to miss - And you need most if not all the magazines.
If no ally of the Sunderer pops the LA during it, repairs the sundy, or the Sundy itself doesn't open fire..

The problem isn't that the LA can actually destroy a Sundy with their Tool before several enemy respawns, it's that no one is paying attention to the Sundy's defense.

As ironically, due to the idea that the Sundy is durable, and there is seemingly no profit in guarding it, the LA can manage to kill it.
The Heavy Assault class is more likely to end up where the departing Allies of the Sunderer are heading.
The LA can go where the majority isn't traveling - Avoiding walking into them, forcing engagement.

(Also it says Tanks specifically)

Imo Sunderers do not get spawned often not because 1 is enough, but because many players do not care about the importance of the bigger picture. They just care about kills, respawn is something someone else will take care of.

We are back to the same old topic: the game does not reward players for playing per objectives. This is a combined arms game, meaning there are different roles and activities, some classes and vehicles are strong in a certain niche, others are weaker, others are completely vulnerable.
But this logic does not really work well with an e-sport: in a game where players are supposed to cooperate, the idea to focus achievements on kills and to emphasize KDR as main statistic was a huge error. It leads to behaviors like Infiltrators sniping all time but not using recon devices, Medics (less popular class!) shooting but not reviving, Engineers repairing their own vehicles but not supporting with the Archer, and players spawning dozens of battle tanks to shell the spawn room from 200 mts... but only 1 Sunderer.

You think making sunderers worse will encourage more people to pull them? In a game where 99.9% of player only really care about their own KDR?
Lol.

when did I mention anything about making sunderers worse...?

You're saying that weaker sunderers = more pulled.
Am I somehow misinterpreting this?

In order to get more sundies i suggest to remove the no-deploy zone, that sunderers create when they deploy. Imagine bringing a shield sundi, but you cant deploy in a good spot, just because someone else has packed theirs. What to do?
Sit there?
Blow other sundi up?
Drive it around, with the danger of blowing up? (good if you have a squad that knows squaddeploy, but rare)
Leave it alone?

These are painfull bad decisions. More painfull, when you have a shield/stealth sundi, that is total worthless until deployed and a repair/ammo sundi has taken the spot.
Often i see a deployed sundi and anotherone next to it, empty. They cant reach other positions because of No-deploy zones and the frontline. They are just useless. Allow them to deploy, and as an attacker you have a 2nd fallback sundi. This more or less garantees sunderer drivers the chance of spawn xp, and not just the empty road.

What will happen: Fight will be longer, Sundi spam will be a good tactic. Tanks are more important to drive attackers out. longer battles in a base, more battles between them...