[Suggestion] Remove MAX revive

would be a worthless feature, seeing as to how respawning is a common occurrence in PS2 and no one would mind it at all. What they WOULD mind, tho, is that they just lost 450 goddamn nanites. Infantry respawns cost nothing. I would feel cheated out of my nanites if my max exploded and released a HA for example.

Besides, D.va can call back her mech for a bit of ult charge, Samus gets hers back the same way as well (in smash at least). And Mario can catch Yoshi while he is running away, too. Regaining a MAX that is lost? Buy a new one. For 450 goddamn nanites. How about no.

IF I was allowed to get a second life as an engineer and repair my wreck of a mech myself before being able to enter it again, fine. That would be debatable, but the max going up in smoke like that? Hell naw.

It's not about the amount of usage, which is what Laughingdead pulled, it's about the effectiveness per use.

Most MAX AV weapons have the same V KPU for instance as C4... Per arm. But they've got two arms and these are usually used simultaneously, meaning their V KPU is almost double. Even "bad" AV weapons like Pounders seem to get similar results as C4. The big difference is ofcourse the fact that MAX AV weapons usually need to damage a few targets before they can actually get a kill that didn't get away in time, meaning these weapons are more powerful overall. Add the kills that even MAX AV weapons get and you quickly get to much better results than C4.

Once again you're comparing a single weapon to a Class. How about the 2.4 infantry I kill as a LA before dropping my C4 onto the tank and blowing it up? How about my AV turret kills or my rep gun score between my C4 kills? How about my healing and revive points in addition to dropping C4?

Pulling C4 doesn't give anything up to be useful except medkits.

Pulling an AV MAX makes you extremely vulnerable to everything that isn't a vehicle. I would go so far as to say a dedicated AV MAX can be solo'd by most decent infantry if not then 2 enemy infantry. As my numbers show the nanite cost of a MAX is only 2.3x more effective then C4. Plus C4 gives nothing up to be bought and used.

Your argument is tired. You should be comparing MAX cost vs ESF MBTs, and Harassers. It's far more apples to apples then MAX vs C4.

Yeah, what's the problem with that?
For instance you compared MAX's to vehicles, I bet you incorporated MBT's into that category and wouldn't have thought twice of adding the top-gun to the statistics. Well that's a two-player job, and mostly an Engineer one! Is that a problem? Ofcourse not! Because we are looking at what one nanite-purchase can get you. One nanite purchase can get you a brick of C4, or it could get you an entire class when you buy a MAX! And regardless of which configuration of MAX you pick you can make a case for them to be more efficient than C4 per nanite on average.

Again, there's nothing wrong with comparing a single-use C4 brick to an entire class that costs nanites. Just like there's no problem in comparing what a multi-crew vehicle can get you for those same nanites.

You didn't pay nanites to get those kills. You could have left your C4 at home and still achieved those kills without nanite cost. Now if a C4 brick gave you a standard buff to your firepower, for instance 10% extra damage, then you could add the extra kills you can get on average to the amount of kills and damage you do when you use the C4. However that's not the case, C4 doesn't do anything for you until you detonate it. So the nanite expenditure can only be considered upon that time. Everything you do extra as a class doesn't matter.

And that's a balancing problem I've been trying to remedy for a looong time. For instance with proposals such as making the Rocklet Rifle a utility that costs nanites for it's rockets, in return it can be more powerful or useful per shot. I've written dozens of idea's for this, all easily viewable in the LA section here: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/long-past-due-la-update-remake.211154/
However that's not important for the discussion at hand. We are discussing what C4/MAX's can do for it's nanites compared to other nanite purchases.

Yes, they are so weak that even after you subtract the Vehicle KPU off the infantry KPU that only the Vortex can't kill more than one person per life.
Oh wait, that's not extremely vulnerable. I would go so far to say that any decent AV MAX can handle a decent enemy infantry. Many MAX AV weapons, such as Ravens, Falcons, Comets, Pounders and Gorgons, are all used as substitute anti-infantry weapons. Many of them are actually used for longer-range AI work due to the lack of ADS range on the AI weapons.

My argument isn't tired. It works. MAX's are closer to infantry than tanks, and used in infantry zone's as well. This means that comparing it to tanks is less viable than to C4 or grenades, which are usual infantry purchases.

Closer to infantry. Which C4 isn't. Since infantry don't cost nanites the MAX is infinitely less effective for its cost in nanites then infantry is. For cost in nanites the MBT is so much better as to make MAXs obsolete. For cost in nanites vs effectiveness grenades should cost 1-2 nanites or just be free.

The whole resource system is based around time between re-use and actually has nothing to do with cost effectiveness. 9 minutes per MAX or 90 seconds between C4.

I'm actually not even sure wh you're arguing any more. How about we make everything that costs nanites as effective as grenades.

Should make for a wonderful game right?

Actually, making MAXs more like vehicles could work. Imagine you're an engineer. Your MAX suit takes 40-50% damage. There aren't any engineers close by. You exit your MAX and repair it then jump back in.

You're about to die, you hop out, stealth as an infiltrator, run for cover while your MAX explodes.

Your squad has just pushed into a CP and cleared the CP. You jump out as a medic, revive a couple fallen teammates and drop down a regen field then climb back in to the MAX or leave it for one of your other team mates.

Another MAX shows up, you hop out, jumpjet to a balcony drop a C4 on the enemy MAX then climb back into your suit afterwards.

Hmmm. That could be cool. Obviously they aren't reviveable if you can exit them.

If they become oversuits they will be everywhere. I say that as a primary max user. You dont want a max vehicle that a dude can pop out of. All your gonn have is suprise mines, rockets and tankmines. Planetside is terrible at rendering pilots getting out of vehicles and the max pilot will kill you before he renders in a large fight. If maxes were immune to small arms and had 50% more health then sure make my coffin a one way trip. Otherwise make every vehicle something your stuck in till it explodes. Im sure pilots will love not being able to bail out to cheat the kill. I am a bailer as well lol.

i think we should compare max to lib (both played solo, solo lib is fairly easy.)

congratulations! you have 450 resources here are 2 of your options!

Option 1:

SPEED:
flies, moves at 200KMPH.

WEAPONS:
the fastest killing AV weapon in the game (tankbuster),
can also take an incredibly powerful AI weapon such as Zepher as a 2nd weapon,
and throw in an AA tailgun for good measure as a 3rd weapon.

SURVIVAL:
this machine takes 3 shots from the strongest rocket launcher (decimator) and default launcher to destroy,
it takes 8 rockets from the rest. (crow/hawk and counterparts)
and ofcourse like any worthy vehicle it is completely immune to small arms fire,
even vehicular AI weapons like Marauder do nothing.
it takes 3 bricks of C4 to destroy this machine (and ofcourse it is flying and moving at 200KMPH)

SUSTAIN:
the driver as an engi can repair his 450 investment to full in seconds by himself,
no need to rely on someone else to do something which you can do for yourself!



Option 2:

SPEED:
slowest moving unit in the game, does not fly.

WEAPONS:
only has access to two weapons at a time, neither of which is very practical unless used as a pair,
(but even then you can't even dream of matching the damage potential of Tankbuster or Zepher.)

SURVIVAL:
this machine takes 2 shots from the weakest of rocket launchers to destroy,
or 2 headshots (3 body shots) from an archer, or 2 clicks from a rocklet rifle,
this machine is prone to small arms fire and melts extremely quickly to vehicular AI,
this machine dies instantaneously to C4 and tank mines,
this machine dies instantaneously to roadkills, even from a tiny quadbike.

SUSTAIN:
the pilot cannot heal this machine by himself and must prey that an engineer does it for him.
but this hilarious waste of resources can be revived within 10 seconds.
(if you're lucky to get the 1 in 10 medics who actually rezzes.)


so what shall we spend our 450 resource on?

Try flying your liberator in a Biolab where no vehicles are or in other buildings...


Compareing a threeman Plane to a Unit which does just shredder everyone in the biolab is stupid... All in this thread should stop with that comparing against other things.

Fact is that the Max unit rises it's KDR and Tiny liddle wiener in every Biolab fight. Especially NC Max.

NC Maxes have the most advantage in Biolabs which does destroy the whole role of the Unit.

A Max should rather give fire suppression than farming every Infantry with ease.

You don't know what I'm arguing because you keep misinterpreting what I say.

It's very simple, it's still the very same as the first post: How much murder and mayhem can you buy for 1 nanite, depending on what you buy. And I say that a MAX can and will have a better result than the one-shot C4 bricks.
And since you don't buy infantry, they aren't infinitely more cost-effective. Besides that you forget that infantry do cost something. every minute equals 50 resources, so any time wasted can be converted to resources, and resources can be converted to time spend. So if you die and respawn, it takes for instance 10 seconds before you are respawned, add the time to get back into the fray and potential extra deaths in the time that the MAX survives and keeps killing and you can see that a MAX still has a chance to be more efficient than "costless" infantry.

Or just pull an MBT instead? Problem solved............no, wait, Maxes can run about inside buildings can't they. Don't get me wrong, I think Max revive should remain because I main engie and medic and they are valued customers .

Max revival can stay, but they have to pay more nanites to accept the revive!!!

Why have a resource cost on the max otherwise? Revive without another nanite charge just circumvents the balancing aspect of having the max cost the same as a battle tank because it is HIGHLY effective at it's roles especially with support. A single AA max can hold off 5-10 aircraft easily while taking some down in the process... and then should he fall he can get up as many times as a medic is willing to rez (and they are ohsowilling) whereas there is no Engineer rez for those pilots, they gotta go wait for resources to get back on their platform.

Your move, Devs.

are you guys serious?
one of you acts like a max wondering in to a defended biolab room won't instantly eat 2 rockets to the face and be dead,
the other acts like burster max is some omnipotent AA god when the reality is the complete opposite, it only takes a single ESF a split second to destroy a burster max, even in a straight up head to head the ESF wins.
a lolpod flurry or ANY nosegun will kill the max before the max can kill the ESF, also hornets kill maxes instantly.

?? Why KPU? It only shows you total kills without regard for any additional criteria (unless my understanding of KPU is off) When you start talking about TTK is when C4 clearly comes out ahead, I mean, even you seem to agree that MAXes need to kite the vehicles they target (which gives them more than enough time to find safety) whereas having 2 C4 bricks planted on you is already certain death.

Also you say MAX AV weapons top C4 even at one hand wield? Why? Even at dual Falcons you're still not dealing 2800 damage at the press of a button.

Late reply I know...Real life hits at times :l

LOL - I want some of what you have been smoking.

As the poster above says - a dual Burster Max will lose when going head to head with even a single ESF, let alone a Valk or Lib.

An M30 Mustang equipped Reaver can one clip a Max from full health - and that's without considering the Reaver may well be carrying lolpods too.

TTK of C4 is far longer than you can imagine.

Most people think of the TTK of C4 as the moment you press the fire button, like you just did. "TTK of C4 is instant! You die when he clicks the button!"
Some people dare add the time it takes to plant the C4, which is only reasonable. That C4 has to get on the target first before you can detonate.
And someone who knows the game adds the time it takes to identify and approach the target, plant the C4 and then detonate. This has the potential to have a faster TTK than a MAX when you accidentally run into a nice target. However it's unlikely in many cases for this to happen.

Also keep in mind that the game isn't just about TTK. It's also about ease-of-use. An accurate weapon like the Orion that can easily be hipfired is far superior to most other LMG's out there, despite there being LMG's with more ammo capacity or even DPS. It's easier with an AI MAX to kill infantry than as infantry, since you have more health and armor to stay alive and more firepower to boot. The same counts for AV MAX's vs Heavies. With C4 you buy almost only firepower. If you buy a MAX you buy ease-of-use, armor and firepower in one package. Sure there are downsides, but almost everything has downsides. C4 has an extremely short range and an arming time. Tanks don't have the maneuverability of infantry (and infantry don't have the speed and acceleration or tanks). Vehicles have a larger hitbox to be hit, but on the other hand they also have a high resistance to most weapons as well as a good healthpool. Vehicles can be repaired quickly in the field by yourself while infantry mostly is incapable of putting themselves back to 100% fighting condition unless they are Medics or carry resource-costing medkits with them. Vehicles can't be revived etc etc. There's advantages and disadvantages to everything, but on the whole you can be sure of one thing: Using nanites to buy something gives you something. Be it firepower, ease-of-use, armor, speed, maneuverability, regeneration or whatever is your fancy.
And you can try to quantify that. How much you get from one C4 package, or from buying a MAX. Ofcourse a MAX isn't as powerful as a tank, imagine that a tank that's capable of going through infantry buildings and chew them up, walking over them for a pavementkill... That would be over-the-top. Even if a MAX isn't as powerful as an MBT, you still get something good in return. The ability to have armor and firepower right in the middle of infantry paths.

It becomes more and more clear with every post that you just don't play MAX. All your theory craft is good and all but it's not the true picture of actually playing a MAX. You're a smart guy. You have good ideas and generally know what you're talking about. In this though I really think the "looks good on paper" that you keep pushing doesn't hold water.

Play a MAX for the next 2 weeks. Pull 1 any time you have enough nanites. Give it priority over anything else you might using. Make the sacrifice of pulling that 450 nanites to fight over using say an MBT or Lightning or whatever. No matter the battle, choose the best MAX load out for the situation.

What I think you forget is that to pull a MAX you forgo an MBT for 3 minutes if you have 750 nanites. If you have 450 you forgo even a sunderer for 4 minutes. Every time you pull a MAX you're making a decision on what vehicles you may or may not be using to assist in the fight, or mines, or C4, etc.

C4 doesn't have the impact on your nanite pool that a MAX does. You're right about C4 TTK, unless you're spam dropping them in a specific way that 150 nanites is more target of opportunity, which means it has little impact on your overall play style to use it once in a while.

Pulling an MBT then dieing in 30 seconds happens, but it doesn't happen that often. MAX on the other hand? It's TTL is probably on average less than 2 minutes on a 9 minute resource cost. (Play one, even when the situation isnt perfect, you'll see, remember it's a class or maybe it's a vehicle, either way it has as much or higher cert cost and nanite cost as anything else in the game to be effective)

Ultimately I think MAXs are ok. They're good for very specific situations in which you have support willing to give up their game play to basically just tag a long while you "have all the fun". The rest of the time though? They're pretty lack luster and that price tag is huge. It takes a second weapon cert/dbc cost at a minimum to even really justify pulling 1. The AI/AV arm MAX is pretty bad. Cert wise to be able to survive a single AV mine or a single C4 they have to have rank 3 or better flak armor (I think, don't quote me on that, base resist will die for sure every time). On a whole they're huge cert sinks.

Play one.

MAX suits always get flak because tons of squishies hate to be killed by one, but as has been said here and elsewhere many times, they are one-trick ponies (indoor meat-grinds, and some AV support outdoors if they can survive long enough).

To pay for that highly situational superiority (blamming you in the face if you come round a corner) they are incrediably vulnerable to a wide range of weapons, they're slow, and they're still not immune to small arms (you might think they're tough but when I'm in a MAX suit that armour goes down very quickly even to just small-arms spam).

They're a very limited force multiplier.


Anyway agreed with the general consensus of not removing revive. It'd make them next to worthless, and apparently dev experiments proved that.

So, what if I didn't add the time it takes to plant a C4? What exactly changes if you can use a variety of different already available elements in the game to shorten the time it takes you "plant" it, or better yet, go completely undetected as you do it? Let's not forget C4 can be THROWN.

I'd like to ask. If you take a MAX and gear it SOLELY to kill infantry. How is it any different from taking an Engineer and gearing it SOLELY to destroy vehicles?

If you're going to tell me C4 and ease of use don't go in the same sentence then why, for nanites sake, are C4 users so high in demand? You see Platoon leaders telling people to pull their C4 more often than you will see them asking for demolition engineers/heavies, and far, much more often than they will ever ask for dedicated AP tanks.

Light Assault, Heavy Assault, Combat Medic and Engineer all have access to C4. If you still intend to say MAXes are the kings of infantryplay then it's probable you know of a way to void both C4 bricks on each class which I'm not privy to and I would be of little use in such topic of conversation.

Let's not forget that OHK shells can be SHOT, at great distances, and high velocity.
Also let's not forget that even the "far" throws of C4 still land maybe 5 to 10m away from you. That's one Sunderer length! Whoop dee doo!
And yes, it's very important that you didn't factor in the time to plant C4, and even more important to factor in the time it takes to get to the right position. Imagine if we removed the plant+arm time and let C4 simply explode upon impact! Let's see how 'unimportant' that arming time is now! WHOOOHOOO! Gimme some of that instant-explode C4!
It's even more important to factor in the time it takes to get to someone. It's like with shotguns or SMG's. If you go attack someone you can't just say "well the TTK is incredibly short". You have to factor in the effort it takes to actually get to your target without dying. So what if you shotgunned someone in the face once, if it took you 5 tries to even get in that range then the shotgun is worthless! (or the player).
And that's the problem. You only count from the moment the C4 fairy is on top of you deploying that C4. Imagine this: You spot a C4 fairy as it's approaching you. How long is that C4 fairy his TTK going to be against you? You can just avoid him, take potshots until he dies or gives up. Jobs done! You can reverse and still stay ahead! All because you spotted the guy! And even if that C4 fairy is outside of your elevation range your FOV still allows you to look up incredibly high and spot the C4 fairy, and when you've spotted a C4 fairy you have to have been standing really badly to let that C4 fairy still succeed. Or you must have done absolutely nothing after spotting that C4 fairy and went about your business of standing around not moving an inch while he bombed you! And that was just spotting the dude in time, which isn't too difficult. You can also plant things like Spitfires, you've got more of them and it doesn't take long to visit a Sunderer if you run out nowadays. Or you could equip radar, or if you think there's C4 fairies dropping from aircraft you can just move about. You don't have to move far, just a little movement. Sure your kills per minute will go down a little, but not as much as getting your tank C4red!

Because this doesn't have anything to do with the point I made?
Ok maybe it has a little to do with it. What's different from taking a MAX compared to an Engineer if we gear them out? Well you don't compare apples and oranges, you compare them for the same task. The difference between an AV MAX and an AV Engineer is how they function. An Engineer has to rely on a stationary AV turret that can be one-shot, while the engineer can be one-shot as well by AV weapons not to mention that he's a good target for snipers and anyone flanking him. You can place mines, but then we are comparing the cost of AV mines against the cost of a MAX. Factor in mine accuracy of 20% to 44% (32% average according to Dasanfall as far as I can tell) and it's clear that a lot of mines are spotted and detonated safely.
Anyway, then we have the MAX. You pay a lot of nanites upfront but then you get to shoot for it as long as it lives, even after revives. You have 2 AV choices, usually one shorter ranged and one longer ranged. However the MAX isn't stuck in one position like the AV turret nor can it be safely disarmed like a mine (or does mineguard increase the amount of MAX's needed to kill it without further costs). Additionally the MAX has more longevity against AV weapons, being able to tank one shot to the face of any AV weapon.
So once again, you buy something special. In this case firepower, longevity and the ability to move while doing AV work compared to the Engi.

Wait, what? I've never ever heard of anyone telling me to pull C4. "destroy that Sunderer" is about as far as people go. Maybe if they see what class you are while standing almost on top of a target, like an LA, they can expect your best AV weapon to be C4 and then ask for it for a quick kill. But they don't ask you to pull out C4 specifically beforehand.
And even with LA's latest upgrade I've not seen any leader anywhere ask specifically for LA to be pulled. LA aren't wanted in squads. I've already tried to remedy that with tons of additions to the class, including additions that remove C4 from being the only utility choice, but ofcourse people prefer to nitpick about stuff.

How to avoid C4 bricks as a class, step 1: Shoot any ****** in the face before they get close
Step 2: have some SA and make sure you keep an eye out for places where an LA might appear. If you it's easy for an LA to get up there (for instance because it's the barrier your allies and enemies are fighting around) without being spotted and shot by you or your allies, then you are in the wrong spot. Find somewhere with a roof, or away from a roof, or where allies will happily shoot any LA because they will be spotted easily.
Step 3: Profit.