Long Time Vanu Here, and I'm Unhappy

Just to put my 2 cents in this nice thread.

Ive only played for 2months and only TR so im relatively inexperienced and also i dont know how the receiving end of my Prowler's cannons feels.Though i imagine that it must be painful,especially for infantry .That Prowler is a mobile cert generating machine!Until i see that sexy Vanguard rushing towards me without me being anchored and having had the first 2-3 shots on him!

Anyway with the exception of the PPA,the arguably less visible default camo and the abuse of the 0.75 Orion by only a few strafing veterans i honestly dont think the VS are OP.

However i think that for whatever reason they feel more annoying to fight against.Some of their advantages in the grand scheme of assymetric balance FEEL cheap...Also parts of their arsenal,such as the Magrider,seem to have the biggest discrepancy in efficiency between average and master users.Fighting a Vanguard is always fighting a Vanguard while fighting a Magrider can feel anywhere from "HAHA this thing is cannon fodder!" to "OMG i literally couldnt have done anyhing to counter him! (due to climbing-absurd positioning most of the time)".They also seem to have,even on Cobalt, the most "must WIN attitude",better organized outfits.

Anyway my personal answer to the frustration they sometimes cause is my kill per empire pie.And i dont say that to sound badass(or masochistic for that matter) but to point out that sometimes its best to practice and hone your skills against the opponent that (at least) feels stronger.

And who knows maybe they are a little!

In a game with the scale it currently has, I would not be suprised if a faction has differences in strength. Personally, it seems balanced enough to enjoy all sides. I have seen the Vanu get destroyed, but also be victorious. And it was no different when I played with the Terran Republic.

Honestly, I have good faith in the developers and I believe they are one of the few who actually know the issues that affects the game as we type. Remember that they are seeking nothing but profit, which they will lose if 80% of the community leaves or refuses to make purchases due to an overpowered 20% (Vanu).

That could be true, given that in American servers, the competitiveness is rather absurd. I'm mainly speaking of the Emerald and Connery servers, both based on US.

Honestly I don't think the PPA should be touched at all, given that its purely an Anti-infantry weapon. All factions have a different sort of 'strength' to it really; I mean take the SAW and the Orion, both have different strengths to it that just acts like a sort of balance within itself. When a weapon under performs in its intended role then it should be improved like the spiker for example. But when faction specific weapons over perform, toning it down doesn't solve the issue but stop all use of the weapon. Its best to improve the other options given to other factions.

Though when a weapon negates the use of any other weapon, like say the Halberd in the past, then that should be modified. Personally, now I see that the Commissioner, the NS side arm is a rather overused side arm given the function of it. That there really isn't a point to use any other side arm.

I think mobile PPA is the core of the problem. It reminds me of the Prowler AoE from way back. It's why I stopped playing Infantry and moved to flying ESFs almost full time. I can't speak personally toward the complaints about Orion, etc.

If/When PPA goes away, we will invariably see something emerge to become the next problem. Air and Ground Vehicles tend to be the most likely problems. Air is a mess because AA is so sporadic and unreliable, and Air units themselves are powerful. I think Ground Vehicles is likely a consequence to the nerf of various AV including the AV Mana Turret, which (although OP) was one of the few methods of reliably suppressing/disrupting Tanks/vehicles.

SOE Devs do not have a strong grasp of what is going on in the game in terms of balance and playability for the average player. I worked as Designer on a sister company to SOE. I've known a lot of SOE people. Consistently, they disregard most feedback, barely any read the forums, only some of them play (outside of mandatory sessions), and the ones who play only play with certain Classes/Vehicles or in certain ways (full squad with full Certs, etc.). To be fair, this is pretty standard for most Devs across companies. They spend the day doing work on the game and don't want to dedicate all their free time to playing it too.

In addition, only the higher ups are focused on profit, and that only trickles down to the people who actually work on the game through very specific mandates like maybe "no more 2x SC sales" or "no more free XP to non-members". It does not cover balance or most the broad control the Designers have to define the game's direction across most areas.

FYI, the Light PPA is solid (once you use Coyote to offset the PPA's terrible A2A ability). I pretty much only fly ESF these days, and I switch between Light PPA and the Banshee. I've only dabbled with the AH, but so far I don't like it (seems AH is a weapon suited to players with very good aim, aka Aces/Top Players). If/When Banshee is nerfed, I will probably switch full time to the Scythe Light PPA.

I would say .... if there's anything the OP is doing right .... It's just playing on one faction ---> that always has another faction that is happy to face it. It sounds like he's another Emerald player ... but he could be a connery player too. They both have similar stories. And no matter of "Learn 2 play" talk directed at the more-casual factions is going to change the fact that there are people who just don't want to constantly be exposed to ABRASIVE PLAYERS. Even if it means mingling all day with complete idiots, there is a surprising quantity of people out there who just want a less stressful experience... less drama... and most of all, more immersion via less CONSTANT self-awareness.

It wouldn't be the worst thing ever for this game, if more people playing for VS went and played for the other factions for a little while, even if it's only just to have more willing opponents who are actually happy to see them. Feels good man.

either change VS stock camo for a brigther one or make NC/TR ones darker, VS stock black camo is one of the most invalanced things in the game along with their flying MBT and PPA ****.

Honestly, the VS camo is half the reason I absolutely hate fighting them.

I'll say this once if you need to make an excuse to defend something, what you're defending has a problem. It's nice to hear a review from a player who has mained VS and tried the other side, and can understand why people complain.

On a side note I propose that the NC and the TR built a co-opted shield wall that reaches the flight ceiling and let the VS wallow in their own filth for eternity. Let the spandex creatures destroy themselves with their PPA's.

Only if you change it so that every single weapon, vehicle and ability we have doesn't glow like a christmas tree.

Or make yours glow. That would be nice too.

I think there are more flying Prowlers/vanguards than there are Magiders nowadays. Completely serious.

Whatever label you put on the L-PPA, fact remains that the Banshee flat out out-performs it.

I often play and discuss with top tank drivers on NC and TR side, i also often fight them. While i have to admit its horribly difficult for me to drive a Prowler or Vanguard i have to say that i think its partly a "get used to it". Sure some of the pro TR/NC tank drivers have big time fun in a magrider and i'm sure its because its easier to drive.
But i'm not sure about the balance issues you complain about. I have no idea how the tanks scale at lower skill levels but at high BR i know its a fair fight between Prowler/Vanguard/Magrider. You have to use completly different playstyles for each tank but thats ok so far and i think its nice that there is a difference.

Watching Magrider Zergs sometimes i don't have the impression of them beeing overpowered as fast as they are annihilated sometimes by opposing VG or PR zergs.

(this post is NOT about PPA, it's about Tank vs Tank)

I agree Banshee is better than Light PPA overall. But if Banshee was nerfed to the point of unusability, I think Light PPA in its current form would take up the "Infantry farmer" role Banshee is in now for ESF pilots.

Off the top of my head, here are some comparative advantages/disadvantages of Banshee vs. Light PPA:

Advantage Banshee
1) Banshee allows the player to select whatever Wing Mount they want because Banshee is weak (but not terrible) at A2A; Light PPA (for most players) requires using the Wing Mount for Coyote because the Light PPA has very low projectile speed and is terrible at (and too vulnerable to) A2A vs enemy ESFs;
2) Banshee TTK allows for getting in fast, striking fast, and getting out fast; Light PPA TTK requires getting in slower (slower TTK [slower DPS + slower projectile speed] means cannot engage the target at fast speed because need more time on target), spending more time over target, and is slower to get out
3) Banshee is on a Mosquito which has faster top speed and has slow drop speed when gliding nose down (slower drop speed means more time to engage target below from a position above it, be it Infantry or Vehicles); Light PPA is on a Scythe which has slower top speed and has fast drop speed when gliding nose down (NOTE: both Banshee and Light PPA perform typically better when above target: targets look up less [safer + surprise], Light PPA/Banshee use exploding AoE and ground below offers great terrain to activate it vs. side attack on target which often won't hit terrain or may hit terrain farther/closer away from target, targets like Tanks cannot aim up and so this allows "safer" attacking vs these targets, etc.)
4) Banshee is on Mosquito which can be land on many surfaces (though does tilt more and sometimes falls over following Valkyrie patch); Light PPA is on a Scythe which slides if parked on a slope, if exited while landing ungently (as is sometimes needed in damaged ESFs) it can hit a bump or depression and flip over and explode.
5) Banshee has high DPS and empties Mag quick so that it's noise is rarely a negative factor; Light PPA (as is famous for all PPA) requires longer duration of firing and is so loud it blocks out key sounds that ESFs typically rely on: sound of enemy ESFs, certain damage sounds, etc.
6) Banshee projectile is small and faster speed, so it is easier to gauge if it is on target; Light PPA projectile is huge and slow, and it becomes difficult to place on target and sometimes visually obscures target.
7) Banshee is on a Mosquito, so can see direction of jets in 3rd person; Light PPA is on a Scythe, can't visually see position on jets (horizontal or vertical) in 3rd person (NOTE: this makes it more difficult for lower skill pilots, though suspect this becomes an advantage at high levels where it does not visually give away facing of jets to opponent)
8) Banshee is on a Mosquito which has a slimmer profile when faced from above/below, pilots good at hover dueling can use this to minimize damage taken from opponents not facing them head on (such as duels with more than 2 enemy ESFs).

Advantage Light PPA
1) Light PPA has bigger Area-of-effect splash damage and a much slower-to-empty Magazine, it can engage more targets per attack run and can option to stay over unfinished targets to finish them in quicker time, and rarely has to deal with reload time; Banshee has a smaller Area-of-effect splash damage and a much faster-to-empty Magazine, it can only engage fewer targets per attack run and if it tries to stay over unfinished targets to finish them it has to deal with slow reload times which makes time to finish them very long, and it frequently has to deal with its slow reload time.
2) Light PPA has a much slower-to-empty Ammo supply, so it does not have to return resupply very often, and it rarely caught in a compromising situation with a low Ammo supply (engagement with another ESF, coming across a vehicle target with too much health to kill, or just being too low on Ammo to be able to provide assistance to an ally ESF in a duel); Banshee has a much faster-to-empty Ammo supply, so it has has to return to resupply more often, and it is more likely to get caught in a compromising situation with a low Ammo supply.
3) Light PPA reaches very good levels of Mag Size and Ammo Size very quickly, so a player does not need to spend the Certs to max out these slots (makes it more effective at lower Certs and also makes high Certs simply a convenience option); Banshee benefits massively from maxing out Mag Size and Ammo Size (it is much less effective at lower Certs, and the Cert cost is very expensive)
4) Light PPA is on a Scythe which has a slimmer profile when faced head on, pilots good at hover dueling can use this to minimize damage taken in 1-on-1 duels.

I don't understand all the VS hate, or why people don't like to fight them.

But I will say there is a nugget of truth contained in the VS OP mindset.

Like every faction in the game, when one side is outnumbered or even, but filled with noobs, the game is terribly frustrating.

When the sides are even, however, I rarely ever see a problem and it comes down to luck or very rarely, tactics.

The game is based around mass combat. So even though you're an ace with weapons, if you're outnumbered, you're screwed.

Because of the perceived superiority of the VS by so many people (especially in this forum) they gravitate towards that faction swelling their ranks.

Because so many folks funnel to the VS, there are far more opportunities to develope a kind of comraderie that comes about due to that misplaced, focused hate from the other two factions.

VS tend to work together a bit more as success breeds such things.

The opposite is true for the NC, for instance.

In another post I made the argument that the NC is the precision faction despite the "shotgun" esthetic. You'd think the VS would be with their lasers, but they are are far more spammy than the NC and I would argue even more than the TR.

Though the NC have (arguably) some of the best weapons in the game, the threshold for effective use is very high and many folks tire at trying to hone their skills and run off to join the spammy factions and the perceived "easy mode" game play.

Thus, the NC are left with very skilled, deadly, but jaded veterans who, unfortunately have given up giving a crap and a gaggle of noobs... at least until they get frustrated.

So there is something to the VS hate, but it isn't just the weapons of an inherently OP faction.

There is far more going on than meets the eye.

At least this has been my view developed over the last two years and more.

That isn't an automatic advantage. If anything, because of the nature of the ESF platform, it could be a disadvantage.
ESFs don't benefit much from sustained damage (like PPA), compared to bursty weapons (like Banshee).
It's a bit the same with the Harasser, where the nature of the platform lends itself more towards the "get in, dump damage, get out" weapons rather than the sustained fire ones (Marauder-H and PPA-H are a good example here, where because of the platform the weapons that perform so differently on MBTs perform more or less the same on Harassers).

Yeah, but like I mentioned above the ESFs don't really work too well with weapons that require/promote sticking around.
It's to the point where -in spite- of the mag size taking it from 20 -> 70 before reload, the moment you get some opposition you're going to have to bail from the area at around the same time as you'd need to shoot 20 shots. This means that you're kinda better off using the reload reduction instead. And that's kinda telling.

As you yourself mention the PPA is really bad at AA, so this "advantage" isn't really one. You'd probably get better overall results if you run the Saron/Antares + Dual Photon Pods.

I main VS and heres my thoughts.

VS side changes that could be done:
PPA, CoF bloom I think was plenty, no need to change other things, possibly fiddle with the AOE a touch.
ZOE needs a review pass. (As do all ES max abilities) Charge being better in every case is just downright bad.
Cerberus could use some fiddling to be worthwile as a pistol choice.
Some kind of ES max AA or something (a dream)

VS thoughts:
Lancer is fine, much gnashing of teeth has been had about it but really, shot for shot it does little compared to the actual launchers and take more time to dump that damage (and require more aiming time/charging time). This is literally a "teamwork is OP" weapon and despite the fussing is fine for what it is.

Orion, really it does its role well. I see comparisons to Gauss SAW often, really they serve different roles and I think the waters get muddied with the fact both are default weapons. Probably could be solved by making the EM6 the base weapon and moving Gauss SAW to a low cost alternate weapon. I don't see much fuss about the CARV from TR vs the Orion though, so maybe its just a perception thing.

ZOE, face it people, junk. Junk junk junk junk junk.

Overall: VS for the most part vs feels just all round pretty good with their stuff. Nothing LEAPS out as "THIS IS AMAZING OMG!" but nothing really is like "this just isn't good". I think that is why VS feels easier to play. You don't deal with things like slower fire rates or super long reloads or massive COF bloom like other factions, but you also dont benefit from hard hits per shot (SAW for example, or most NC weapons), or massive magazines and fire rate like TR. It makes them a super easy faction to pick up and go with because the skill floor for their weapons is low. (ceiling can still be high, but a low floor makes for approachable play). No bullet drop on many of the weapons though is fancy, but really I think that would only really matter for Infils (truly matter) and all of the weapons for sniping in VS arsenal STILL HAVE DROP. The .75 ads movement thing does come into play but that really is more a veteran thing, newer or lower skill players aren't making use of that to the point it matters that I can see. Heck, given how often I eat sniper bullets to the face I'd say it isn't a huge factor for many =p

Things that could be done to help NC and TR?

Fractures need love...badly. Something, be it coyote mechanic vs vehicles, a boost in magazine/fire rate, a change in resist type or just AV damage. Something. They drop too fast compared to other weapons, and really you feel majorly at risk pulling them IMO just because they aren't making tanks or even lightnings go "Hmm I should get out of here". Heck even comets can scare off tanks to some degree. Fractures for being purchased on both arms should be much more threatening to the AV role.

Striker still needs some love. Most any time I pull my striker now it is more do play around than to actually use. The rockets don't hit hard enough per rocket it seems like to really make air worried, and the fact you have to get them so close to the aircraft to get the lockon requires the aircraft to come in close or you to be AMAZING at leading (and hope they don't turn at all). The Grounder is a better choice for most AA duty now, and the ML7 (?) is better for general purpose tank smashing.

TR maxes need something done with lockdown I think, again, charge outclasses it. Lockdown feels like a relic from PS1 that worked fine when maxes were actually able to withstand damage (remember how normal bullets just kinda tickled?) now though they can't afford to be stuck still especially with how common rockets are to be pulled and used (HA being the most common class and all).

NC wise, EM6 would probably be the better default HA gun, Gauss SAW is not kind to the new player.

I honestly have zero idea about how each shotgun for the NC maxes really differs, feels like each one is just a different flavor of "eat close infantry".

NC maxes at least have the only useful ES ability with their shield! Useful does not equal great though.

Otherwise weapon wise the NC got things pretty good. I like alot of their guns and enjoy playing my NC toon now and then, just the teamwork feels lacking there but thats not fixable by SOE.


Theres my ramblings!

To be fair, even though all tanks can fly, only magriders can safely land.

There you are Devs: even the Vanu, when they're honest, think you have royally screwed up the balance between the sides. Fix it.

Semi true, yeah

The mag isn't afforded any speed, armour or firepower advantages howver, so is that... Sort of balanced? Yeah, I think it is

I wouldn't have believed it would be possible, but here it is. A thread dedicated to nerfing Vanu more - actually not just more, in it's entirety. With lots of 'VS' players joining in saying what a swell game it would be if Vanu were nerfed because of x,y and z. Wonderful. TR and NC quoting these 'VS' sources as saying things are broken, and everyone generally patting each other on the back whilst kicking back on their chaise longue wearing their smoking jackets. Indeed, all of this whilst both the NC and TR enjoy ridiculous inequality in areas of the game where the VS are outmatched, outclassed, and outgunned. Seems legit.

I would say something is 'horribly wrong' when an empire intentionally avoids fighting the other 2, essentially an entire 2/3rds of the game, because we are sick to death of the NC and TR crying like 4 year olds who have had to share their toys. If we are attacking, all I hear in yell chat is whining, ******** and cursing that the VS have turned up with x, y or z weapon / tactic. If we are defending, we are usually being steamrolled by 96+ zergs that have no intention of doing actual fighting, and would never consider turning their attention to the other faction. You know why it is so hard to see VS at night? Because inbetween you and us are 96+ other people from your own goddamn zerging faction - it has nothing to do with camo coverage or colouration.

Asymmetrical balance is chanted ad infinitum on these forums - except when the portion of asymmetrical balance that actually favours the VS is the topic, at which point then the asymmetrical balance rule is thrown out of the window and the VS must be exterminated and eradicated from the game.

The hypocrisy in this forum knows no limit.