Vote against Vanguard nerf

Will you stop spouting this nonsense?

Good rebuttal, I really see you have a strong argument for why the Vanguard shield should cover the rear, I admit defeat
-_-

Also thats assuming that the Prowler has full front armor, which yes, would really help.

Also 'ripping it to shreds' doesnt mean I win.

You guys speak of 'yes in this one fairytale situation the Vanguard will win' yet then provide your own singular example of what could make a Prowler win, how about we give them both SIDE armor instead of front? You gave a situation where only the Prowlers armor gave the advantage. (front armor wouldnt benefit the Vanguard.)

With any other tank, they are lucky to get off one shell before they die due to rear armor damage.
Even if I can win, I will only JUST win.

Which is still silly.

Even NC tankers say it themselves, Vanguards are way to kitted for AP duties, with next to no real AI ability.

On Briggs TR its general knowledge never to pull armor to counter a Vanguard column, just pull heavies and you can eat them alive.

i miss the old great bug tank battles, especially between NC and TR where they both had a good chance of killing each other.
Vanguard is now the only tank that doesnt really fit in.
Maggie and Prowler have upsides and downsides and one tank can easily outplay the other.

Vanguard is ULTRA good at AP, almost never losing any tank battle, whilst can easily get molested by even 1 or 2 Heavies.

Vanguard and Vanguard shield need a complete revamp so it actually has more than 1 role.

That prowler went 1v1 against the best CQC tank, in a CQC scenario, and failed to utilize its strength (which not NOT brute strength and armor), or play its special ability to its advantage. At that, the prowler ALMOST won.

That video is a GREAT instructional on what NOT to do in a prowler in an armor engagement, its is NOT a good example of imbalance. At best, its an example of why prowlers usually roll HEAT or HE and farm infantry. Thats what they are better at. Now find a video of a vanguard murdering infantry, where the other tanks cannot.

2 scenarios, 1 cqc , the second a long range fight.
1) the vanguard comes around a building pops shield and traps your prowler against the other building and beats you to death
2) the vanguard enters the large open field and pops shield, while firing at the enemy, the shield runs out half way into the field, and he dies
in these offensive situations the shield is definitely cqc based
how about defensive?
a) a prowler comes 10m away from a vanguard, the vanguard pops shield and can either pull back around a corner into cover, or can cover that 10m and get behind the prowler (depending on prowler skill)
b) the vanguard is caught by a lock down prowler at distance, it pops shield, which runs out before it gets to cover.
hmm still seems pretty cqc to me

free boost? but the stock vanguard is crap to compensate, thats a drawback
but it isnt , its an infinite duration dps increase at the expense of mobility, which is still incredibly powerful and can and will kill vanguards...

no the lesson is EMPLOY strategy, everyone who dies because of vanguard shield, LET the vanguard win by not thinking,
if you just rush him, you die that is the point

you come up behind him, fire your duel AP cannon + halberd, he pops shield, you use the very high acc and top speed of the prowler in combination with rival, to get around the piece of cover next to you, and keep it between you and the slower tank that has had to turn around and then slowly follow you, for only 8 seconds, after which you can rush his face and use your higher base dps with the AP cannon to kill him from his already wounded state, if you miss a few shots i suggest fire suppresion to gain some health mid fight,
the vanguard is dead. and you used your brain! this works even better with the magrider, because strafe+magburn.


"there is no tactical counter to it" - other , than you know, tactics and strategy?

directional is bad, look at the aegis shield, due to clientside hit detection and lag, you get shot through it. making it useless

TIL that patience isnt apparently a tactic, and that not thinking is infact the best strategy.

I deploy on a hill top 150 metres away and bombard your Vanguard with AP (im in my element)
You see me, pop shield and bombard back with AP, you move back and forward to throw some of my shells off, not that it matters anyway, I take all of yours because im stationary. You still win.

Titan AP and shield combo isnt any less potent at a distance.

if a vanguard can hit a target at range, while duking back and forth after just being surprised, and you cannot hit him, with the highest muzzle velocity in the game and being stationary, then i think we have found the issue, the vanguard driver has higher skill.

when you base your assumptions on RNG , it makes the conclusion pretty worthless, either factor in that both parties hit every shot, or dont bother at all. dont keep artificially weighting it so the prowler loses every time, because we have the KPH data , and it seems to be the other way.

is the vanguard shield an ability with a lower skill ceiling and higher skill floor? yes. is that a bad thing? no. clearly not as the entire TR arsenal is lower skill ceiling, higher skill floor. (in regards to rof and recoil of the inf weapons)

That is just....so.....umm..ok logic....not a strong point.

When something is overpowered....now stay with me here...it gets nerfed. Ok? That is it. You don't GET something in return. Mkay?

That is like saying... "ZOE is getting nerfed, I demand it be nerfed in a way that makes it OP in a new way".

His point was that by most metrics the Vanguard is already the worst-performing MBT. Hence if part of it gets nerfed, it would be even worse than it currently is, which necessitates some buffs.

If anything the Vanguard as it stands today needs some buffs in order to bring it in line with the Magrider and Prowler, both of which statistically outperform the Vanguard in almost every category (the only thing the Vanguard is better at is killing vehicles with its HE cannon).

im having issue following the logic here, doesn't the definition of OP mean that it makes it more powerful? for instance with the ZOE you brought up, the vanu max had incredibly high kill stats compared to the other factions,

which we can see from ColonelChingles post, is not the case with the mbt's

"
VS average vehicle KPH
Halbred- 15
Saron- 12
Supernova AP- 13
Supernova HEAT- 7
Total average vehicle KPH: 47

Prowler average vehicle KPH
Halbred- 11
Vulcan- 11
P2-120 AP- 15
P2-120 HEAT- 7
Total average vehicle KPH: 44

NC average vehicle KPH
Halbred-12
Enforcer- 13
Titan-150 AP- 12
Titan-150 HEAT- 7
Total average vehicle KPH: 44"

so yes, asking why the worst performing mbt in nearly all regards is being nerfed, and requesting that the tank itself gets a well deserved buff, is pretty justified.

It infuriates me that few support the resist shield model for the Vanguard shield.
It would be the perfect solution as a toggleable shield.
It makes the ability use more proactive and less of a 'get out of jail free' card.
Edit: I should say, in the immortal words of the Arbiter: "Were it so easy."

Yes, looks who's looking. I gave some ideas (one idea is similar to a thread u started) and mention that a goal should be to redesign with the intent to keep something useful to the NC while being better accepted by the other empires.

You then response with a definition that of "contradiction" which is not only pointless, but leads me to think that you don't know what that means (because the original statement is an obtainable goal)

Wouldn't it have been better to say why you thought it was a contradiction? I guess it is possible you were making a joke, but if that is the case, you need to work on your delivery.

I'm fairly certain a lot of people are complaining about toe to toe fights with he vanguard but sure, add your complaint to the list

And I could be wrong, but I think the mag burner could help a mag escape from being flanked....prowler would be skrewed I guess.

That does remind me though I should post a reminder for people to upgrade their basilisks even if they don't primarily tank. Getting the first levels of ammo and zoom may not seem like much but for 1 cert it's a bargain.

Because it would still be perceived as an IWIN button. Right now, we need to limit it's utility, not it's effectiveness. (IMO anyway)
A charge up timer would solve that problem. Since you couldn't just pop it when you make a mistake and over-extend yourself. You'd have to pop it preemptively to make use of it. Thus some forethought would be needed.

Also, the problem with a directional shield on a tank is that most tank battles are not 1v1. If it only covered the front panels, it would be effectively useless in large scale battles.

It should also slow the tank down, similar to how the heavy shield works.

How useful the shield is, it needs plenty of drawbacks that it currently lacks.

Yes, the Vanny is under performing, but making it overpowered in one area isn't solving that problem.

Well even sitting still the Vnaguard will still win, even without dodging shots, Plus the Vanguard having higher skill? Its honestly not that hard to hit a target that is clamped onto the ground.

KPH? Is this in tank vs tank or kills?
Everyone knows the Prowler is a stupid infantry farmer, which is why its HEAT and HE is getting nerfed, which is needed.
This is exactly what i mean though, The Vanguard is under performing kills wise and stupidly over performing in tank vs tank.
The vehicle is stupidly imbalanced and not versatile.
There is a reason that NC pulls far more lightnings than the other empires, and thats because the Vanguard is too situational.
It and its shield need a revamp to be a true MBT and not a AVT.

Except that there's nothing inherently wrong with the advantage going one way or another in a straight up slug-fight.
However... There's a difference between giving an advantage in a straight up fight, and giving an advantage in -every- fight.

That is the problem. Also how it allows the Vanguard to be careless without having to pay the price like the other two, or at least not nearly as fast/often.


Edit: What the magburner does is to make up for the inherent restrictions of the magrider. Of which there are multiple. That's the TL;DR version at any rate.

I main TR and have died tons to a vanguard shield, even so I cannot help but stress my distaste for this nerf.

It feels like they are once again bending the knee to the nerf whiners

And I have the exact opposite concept in mind and I think developers too.
You know, the concept of A S Y M E T R I C game.
Planetside is about that concept and I hope it stay like this or I'll go play something else.
NC is by concept very specialised (NC MAX scattercannon). Good in one way and bad in another. No versatility concept to the NC side.

You want sanitized game? I don't.

you have been shown the TTK on each tank, when one uses lockdown the other uses shield by someone else in this thread, your example was based on surprise, meaning the 2nd volley would be en-route before/as the vanguard started aiming at you.
and skill in this instance is relative, and its "honestly not hard" to hit a target that accelerates incredibly slowly, making all evasive maneuvers predictable, yet you missed in that hypothetical situation.

you didnt read the thread did you? you just posted your own bias opinion, based on never using the ability and focussing on pushing your agenda.
this is a quote from ColonelChingles post that you seem to have missed

"
VS average vehicle KPH
Halbred- 15
Saron- 12
Supernova AP- 13
Supernova HEAT- 7
Total average vehicle KPH: 47

Prowler average vehicle KPH
Halbred- 11
Vulcan- 11
P2-120 AP- 15
P2-120 HEAT- 7
Total average vehicle KPH: 44

NC average vehicle KPH
Halbred-12
Enforcer- 13
Titan-150 AP- 12
Titan-150 HEAT- 7
Total average vehicle KPH: 44"

would you like me to highlight where it says VEHICLE ? because from here it seems your statement of "and stupidly over performing in tank vs tank." looks false.

but you correctly identified why NC pulls lightnings, because the vanguard flat-out sucks at killing infantry
glad weve covered that its the worst at killing both infantry AND tanks, i guess the fact that it can occasionally kill aircraft is its redeeming feature? quick nerf the vangard its "overperforming"

If you buffed AI I dont think that would make the Vanguard 'bland'

The entire tank itself is Empire specific, i think they could make it viable against infantry and not so specialised for one role.