About killing Aircraft with Skyguard

The changes made to ESF, Lib and Galaxy in the past weeks require a closer look on how to kill them.

ESF are fast, hit fast and are relatively easy to kill if you can hit them. They employ two main tactics to hunt vehicles:
1) Approach fast and fly around the target in circles in a relatively low altitude, trying to avoid a clear hit. Let's call that "dancing".
2) Approach from very high altitude, hover above the vehicle in 90°, fire all weapons, then fly away fast, raising again. Let's call that "falcon".

These two tactics exploit two weaknesses of all standard vehicle weapons: maximum angle to raise the gun (aiming speed is less critical as one can aim when an ESF approaches or departs) and critical damage done within 3 seconds (which is a conservative estimation for the time window an ESF needs to fire their weapons, to arrive or to depart, providing time to fire at them, given the tactic employed by them).

Standard MBT are defenseless against ESF using the falcon tactic as their primary and secondary weapons can't aim 90° up. If an MBT has the chance to escape the attack by moving (Magburn under a tree), there's the chance to take down the ESF within the time window while they are retreating to start the next attack. Prowlers are especially defenseless against falcon ESF since they can't escape or raise their defenses against the attack itself.

A non-standard vehicle weapon is the skyguard, which is particularly designed as Ground to Air weapon. The best way to use the skyguard is to behave like a dumb standard tank, exposing oneself in open areas (or to closely follow a sundy as bait) and let an ESF attempt an attack on oneself, giving enough time to fire a full clip at them.
The main problem with the skyguard is its extreme bullet spread. The skyguard behaves like a hybrid of flak and heavy machine gun, without either bonus (not blinding like flak, not focused for maximum damage like the machine gun). A possible solution could be optional equipment to reducing the spread or make bullets exploding like flak (reducing the spread being most important).

Why it is most important to reduce the bullet spread for skyguard becomes more obvious when analyzing the tactics for Lib and Galaxy.

Liberators basically use the same tactics as ESF, with the difference that dancing is not possible because they are less agile. Instead a Lib uses a more basic hit-and-run, trying to take out the target in one go with their machine; As falcon, they attempt to bomb from very high altitude, making as much damage as possible per hit.

As a vehicle being attacked by a lib using hit-and-run, the only chance to survive is to flee either to the side or better towards the lib, providing less time for the nose-gun to fire at you, while getting the chance to fire at the back of the lib that is now flying away from you.
While it is hard for a standard vehicle to survive such an attack and getting a chance to hit back, for a skyguard such an attack is the only chance to take out a lib. It takes 1 and a half clip to take down a standard lib - but only at close range due to bullet spread.
I estimate that 100% of bullets hit under 50m, 50% of bullets hit a lib at 200m (assuming the target is sitting still like in the VR..).

Taking out a lib with skyguard during a hit-and-run poses a tremendous risk, but it is the only chance against an experienced pilot - why?
Because a Lib that is travelling or attacking a different target away from you either is too low (so there are obsticles preventing to hit often enough to take it out before the lib flies out of render distance to repair) or too high (so that only a neglectable fraction of rounds actually hit).

As much as I love the idea of using the galaxy as flying spawn point, there is a large problem with it: A Galaxy is extremely hard to kill.
In a large battle, the primary objective actually is to take down the enemy sunderer. After that, clearing a control point only is a matter of time (+ rockets + grenades + reviving medics). In a large battle, there is a constant flow of infantry coming from the sunderer, defending it against common threats (maxes, HA, tanks..). The most efficient way to take down a sundy in such a scenario is by sneaking around the crowd as engineer or LA and blow the sundy up in one go with C4 or AT mines. But what if the sundy is flying and many times harder to kill?

A tactic that has shown to be fairly successful is to fly multiple Galaxies above the point of interest in very high altitude, outfitted with AA guns. Using a swarm of Galaxies has proven to be effective in general assault as well. It requires concentrated fire to take down a single Galaxy, so by employing a whole swarm, covering each other and defocusing the incoming fire, such an attack is pretty much unstoppable.

I am not sure what means NC or TR could use to take down a Galaxy at very high altitude from ground. For Vanu, the only current way is by using the Lancer weapon (or its MAX pendant). Regular rockets are useless at large distances in the sky due to lack of feedback (no way to tell how far off a failed shot was), G2A rockets don't lock on due to distance. The ideal choice in such a scenario would be the Skyguard.. if it only could hit! At such a large distance, the bullet spread means that about 10% of all bullets actually hit a perfectly still target (less than 7 bullets out of 70!).

Now, I understand the skyguard currently can be an extraordinarily strong weapon, especially at close range. It can take out a turret in one clip at close range (faster than a MBT considering the reloads!), and reducing the spread for long distances would mean it could be used effectively against MBT and infantry alike.
However, considering the purpose of skyguard and the changed rules regarding aircraft, it would be beneficial to game balance to review the armor of tanks and turrets against heavy machine gun fire and reduce or remove the bullet spread of skyguard to make it actually useful against air, especially Libs and Galaxies.

Considering the Skyguard is the only vehicle that is designed for G2A, its effectiveness against the increased use of Liberators and Galaxies must be improved - a lot.

Reavers and Scythes are fast, not the Mossie. The Mossie is a piece of sh*t.

(sorry, only read the first two lines of this whole 'what i'm guessing is a rant about ESFs' thing)

Good article.
I'd never thought of swarming defensive Galaxies over a target. I imagine it could be very helpful against Tech plants, especially, since they are so large. Offensive Galaxies over a tech plant can spawn and drop soldiers over a large area making it hard to focus defense.

No, it isn't.

um, the mossie has the highest cruising speed, do you even play the game?

The highest cruising speed? ..... It sure doesn't feel like it when a Reaver takes off (with rocket pods mounted) and leaves you in the dust

yeah I'm pretty sure you don't play the game

Anyway to the OP. As an infantry/tanker/esf pilot trying to get into liberating I like the new galaxy spawn system, many pilots would tell you that air was lacking an objective outside of killing other air then killing ground stuff.

But the first time I was working with another reaver to bring down a galaxy over a base after shooting down the mossie guarding it was the first time I felt truly connected to the ground game.

MORE than that though the first time I was defending a friendly galaxy from an enemy esf swarm was the first time PS2 felt like something completely unique, the game should have put an SCU icon on the galaxy for me to defend, it was epic, hearing the pilot and his 3 gunners yelling over TS stuff like "mossie east" "half health" "Westwestwest lib lining us up!!". It was one of the only times that investing the time into skilled piloting really felt like it had a metagame payoff.

I will concede that galaxys are very hard to kill and imo a 2/12 bulldog gal is too effective in many situations but I am not gonig to complain about not being able to tackle say 4 gals with 3 guys in each - that is 12 people being a sunderer. What would be really cool would be guarding CAS libs as they try to bust open that 12000 hp whale.

Note that I don't complain about the status of aircraft. I'm not a pilot - more of an anti-pilot - but I get why ESF are fast, libs are flying tanks and Galaxies are so hard to kill in the first place. But as players exploit these advantages in the air, the disadvantages for ground players to defend have become much more exposed. While it is hard to fight against a swarm of ESF, it is impossible against a swarm of Galaxies, simply due to the lack of means available.

The only way to counter that many gals is a organized focus of counter measures against these gals which is what this game is about anyways. But buffing an anti aircraft weapon could kill the amount of people willing the pull aircrafts (for reasons other than to get somewhere fast) in the first place as it was not to long ago.

Can we have a Hallelujah ?? There it is. Thank you Verenz. SOE has achieved a milestone regarding balance, inclusion and a joint arms game.. who knew?

To the original poster.. the Skyguard is just fine as it is, right now. A giant whale blimp like the Gal should be able to take lots of shots.. and when more than one show up, congrats to the squad that did that. They understand the game and are able to build a team that will create advantages out of many different units. That's the way it should be played..

The bullet spread on the Skyguard has never been a problem, IMHO.. if you have a hard time hitting a far away target, that just means exactly that... it is too far away.. one could say that infantry is OP against my pistol, because I can't hit them from 200 meters away..
To counter any tactics of the Lib or Gal.. you have to get closer, take your shots, and then MOVE !! Many players have chimed in on Skyguard drivers in other threads to explain to everyone: MOVE.. shoot, then MOVE AGAIN..
However, if the Libs and Gals are talking to each other.. and just one of them finds you, .. you are dead. Live with that. The same goes for any MBT or Max.. if the flyboys communicate well with each other, if they can coordinate, you die... almost every time.
No adjustment to shell velocity or cone of fire or spread is going to change that, ever.
You can't expect to live , as a single mobile flak, and take out several bombers and whales.. all by yourself.. every time.

But if you move, if you hide a bit, if you have 'battle patience'.. if you learn from your mistakes.. once you have more experience, you will find that you can take out 3 libs.. even by yourself.. some times.
don't shoot too early.. wait for them to come closer.. they almost always do.. the longer you wait to shoot, the more they think you are just a regular lightning.. come closer, a little bit more.. wait for it.. then you speed up with Racer 3, full stop, and send a full volley of flak into them.. .. watch them jerk their Lib and almost crash.. that pilot almost crapped his pants.. holy *** holy ** that's a Skyguard .. darn.. *** now he is so close that it almost doesn't matter which way he turns, after burner or not, the second volley is sure to hit at lest 50% of its shells..
That lib has to run and repair.. or not even come back at all..
And sometimes that lib gets me two kills, a minute later.. after they were unable to make a safe landing.. and crashed..
You never know.

Quoting another player: One Skyguard is a deterrent. Two Skyguards are death.

FBvanu said it. What one skyguard can't do two can.

Much of your post focused on the weapon, and ignored the possibilities that can be achieved when combined with the chassis itself, which largely negates many of the problems in your assessment, especially when it comes to liberators.

There are two ways I go about it with the skyguard. Racer, Stealth, Fire Suppression for open engagements, or Rival, Nanorep, Fire suppression for siege-like AA.

Racer, Stealth, fire supp. allows the skyguard to position himself in the most dangerous positions possible, and ensure that enemy hit and run tactics turn into hit and run and OMG WHAT IS THAT?!? WHY ARE WE ON FIRE!!!Racer ensures that the skyguard can simply outrun any ground threat, and get in position faster. Stealth keeps air from seeing the skyguard (where you are they will assume your friendly)

• Targets such as low flying libs are espesially vulnerable. The odds of one of these such units being at perfect health is rather low, and their nature has left them incredibly vulnerable to a stealthy skyguard lying in wait. One clip at such close range is incredibly brutal, and the lib really stands no chance at winning. He can only hope to break LOS before he dies.
• However, every air tactic will die to this skyguard, because air needs to resupply constantly. They gotta come down sometime. If I'm between the fight, and their supply zone I can easily shoot them down as they come in. In bigger fights this is so effective I'll sometimes just park under the enemy air pads and enjoy a constant stream of completely free kills. It doesn't really matter what the target is. Most of them will be damaged to boot. Its just free pickings.
• ESFs will also find difficulty living through this because of the 3 second window you described. If I am directly under them, which I often am, I can open fire upon them, and they will hesitate thinking that they are safe enough to let loose their volley before the damage is critical. Too late do they realize that I was firing from a close distance behind enemy lines, and that 3 seconds was more then enough time to take them down. Once you skyguard a while you can get a feel for where ESFs like to hover. I mean, you can just look and see, go there, and kill them all.

Rival, nanorep, fire supp. Is a different breed entirely and answers probably many of the questions one might have after reading about the prior build. This chassis is built to hold a hot position in the middle of the fight. Rather then pick off weak air, this skyguard is built around keeping vehicles safe from air while being really really difficult to pin down. Nanorep ensures that you can keep 100% of your attention on the fight. Rival allows you to quickly move to new cover as the battle changes while pretty reliably juking air and ground attacks.

• Flak splash allows you to forgo some accuracy to keep yourself alive. Even if you are a little less accurate while you juke back and forth its keeping you safe from daltons, rocketpods, c4, and dumbfires. So, don't be that skyguard thats sitting in place waiting to die. Keep on moving. You know, its crazy how many random free kills you get when you inadvertently run over a potential c4 faery while shooting down a liberator.
• Rival, fire suppression, and nanorep means you just will not die. Which is good because air will want you dead. I don't want to say always...but you should try to avoid ever getting out of the skyguard. I don't care if your on fire. Air will see you are weak and assume your not ready to kill them in under 2 seconds while they swoop in to finish you. Heck, you'll probably get most of your kills when your smoking.
• Taking advantage of cover will limit the number of places air can attack you from. Rival chassis turns quickly enough to allow you to change into new cover if your old cover is comprimised before it ever becomes a problem. In a few seconds you've maneuvered around that corner or under that roof before the enemy could kill you.
• This style will counter high flying libs and ESFs decently because they won't be able to take you out. The distance they are trying to shoot you from is too great. Even though you can't deal lethal damage to them, your probably not the only AA in the area. By keeping bullets in the sky this build ensures that the zone you are in will always be a dangerous place for air.

Consider that these builds are focused on one lone skyguard. Imagine if there were two. A dalton Liberator has 2-3 crew in it, and has been built to counter vehicles. My skyguard has 1 person in it, and is designed to kill air. Is it really fair to allow a skyguard to beat a liberator 1 on 1 when we are both built to counter each other?

Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Obvious troll is, ..., wait, apparently not so obvious?

OT: Most people understand how to lead a shot, most people cannot keep a stream of bullets on target. Skyguards working as intended, suggest certing into playtime, mouse sensitivity and teamwork.

I started laughing several times while reading this because of amount of truth it has. Flyboys are creatures of habit, and are never more vulnerable then when they think their safe. They spend a lot of their time being very cautious of their surroundings, only swooping in when their target appears to be unprotected...... any time you manage to kill one, it means you effectively out smarted them. Some are not as smart as others, but you can usually gauge the skill level of a pilot based on how they make their attack runs. So believe me about the amount of deep satisfaction you feel for killing a pilot, and that pilot knowing he screwed up, how he screwed up, and having this internal debate on whether or not he wants to try for revenge. If you do a good enough job, they will OBSESS over you.

lol nvm i thought you were calling me a troll

This thread warmed my whaley heart.

@OP: No, because then AA would scale up faster over a broader area, having more impact than you anticipate. Additionally, as a whale pilot, if you have a gal hovering over you, you're doing it wrong.

Example of OBSESSION.. in other words, they got really peed-off..

On the old Amerish, I once had 6 Mossies circling in a beautiful ballet dance around my skyguard, while destroying me.. I was honored... only took a few seconds.. but..
It took six of them! After I had splashed some of their friends before, they had to come get me.., their entire air squad came after me, .. all mad.as hell.. . and there was NO WAY they would let me live..
You can achieve a lot with a skyguard..

now, if I only had some back-up.. maybe another Skyguard, hiding in a corner..

Very good Skyguard builds, I'm running the second one myself if I expect to guard an infantry advance. (which is less likely to have an abundance of engies, compared to a tank group)
Used to be Rival/Radar/Nanorep before SoE decided to nerf radar once again and put it into defense. (what does SoE have against prox radar anyways?)

Ever since, if I run with a group of tanks I usually go Rival/Radar/Fire-Sup.
Radar allows you to keep an eye open for your fellow tanks, and since you're constantly checking the minimap anyways the infantry dots are easy to notice. The skyguard is surprisingly good at AI inside the ranges where radar can pick them up.
I can't even count how many tanks and sundies I could save that way which would otherwise have ended as engi/LA cert piniatas.



A hint I'd like to give that works for me and a few others I've warmed up to the skyguard is to use thermal instead of zoom.
Sounds counterproductive at first, but I've found it much easier to work with a constant zoom level when working out the lead and distances. 2x zoom distorts spatial imagination, making it harder to get used to the size-distance relations of enemies, their relative speeds and your own bullet velocity.

I cant count the number of times the same pilot I shot down returns in an AP Vehicle, or as a heavy looking to take me down. I normally don't notice unless they actually succeed, and I just read their name in the death screen and chuckle.

Your probably right here. I run zoom. I'm a big zoom fan in general (few people take 1.75 zoom on a viper over thermal), but from my experience...yeah your right. Zoom is counter productive.