Why ESFs are Despised, and Always will be

Your "higher level of entry" is because you don't get rocket pods and thermal right off the bat without paying as compared to having a decent weapon on a tank.

As far as I'm aware, there are only two infantry classes with anti-air, and only one with actual anti-air capabilities. The Heavy Assault, and on the off-chance, Engineer. Phalanx would count, but those tend to be the first things annihilated/hacked/whatever because they're easy to break. Not that they'd contribute much if they were working still, but yeah. So it's either Skyguards, lock-ons from Infantry, or other jets which will require you to be an absolutely perfect Ace to begin with just to have any remote effect on other ESFs. :L Because you're going to be annihilated in the air if you're anything less than perfection, even with numbers on your side.

Well, it worked in practice, maybe not in theory.

Personally, I think that ESFs are indeed OP because almost nothing can kill them before they run away and/or just kill you outright.

Also I'm stealing this for future use.

You're just describing a perfect world in which Bursters do not exist.

So can infantry, so can armor. You can change in an instant to anything you want as infantry. The most overpowered faction in the game. My simple lightening with AP rounds can effectively kill anything.

My largest problems are with the peasants. I say peasants because these people do not use their heads. They run out in the open when I am lolpodding like idiots. When I pull a sundy they spawn from it never noticing that its ready to explode. Never bothering to repair their spawn point. These types of players are peasants.

Then they come on here whining how op rocket pods are.

I play infantry the most, second pilot. But now more I run a lightening. When an esf is around its very easy to engage and simply shoo away. Pathetically easy. Then as a pilot I get on here and here complaints against esf's. So I think "peasant"

Its appalling to me the lack of situational awareness that comes from infantry players. Again, I play infantry more than anything, but I am rounded enough to see the other sides.

What I want to know is how long is SOE going to cater to these peasants?

Right now there is spam everywhere for them. AV turrets that counter everything better than a sniper, infiltrators with smg's, g2A dumbfires that take out air and armor and infantry very easily, G2A lock ons with an endless supply of ammo, C4 that tanks have to run from, Max's that can be revived constantly yet can take out anything in the game, etc.......the list goes on.

No cost, no skill, spam. Makes a quality game like a kiddie game.

sorry, but you touched on a sore subject. 8)

Oh yeah. Forgot about MAXes. Sorry. lol
Those still require absurd numbers...or, pre-nerf ZOE, about two or three VS MAXs.

So it all sums up as:

People who don't like ESF's are petulant children who do not get their "point and click to win" fix, have never pulled an ESF to learn the in's and out's of it, are unable to learn from their mistakes and seemingly have no idea that ESF's are interceptor aircraft designed to use speed, precision and surprise to outmatch opponents in engagements but lack the staying power a tank is SUPPOSED to have (hey tankside, blame infantryside for your predicament not airside... we're as ****** as you guys and can barely get within 2 hexes of your armored column anyway)

All whilst ESF pilots are apparently: ignorant of the frustration they cause tunnel visioning, oblivious, blind, dumb and deaf (apparently) people who run/drive out in the open and get killed by an ESF's terrible weapons? In a game where air makes very little difference to any engagement and it is the side that brings the most INFANTRY that ultimately wins. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

AA and ESF's roles are reversed.

When an ESF or two swoops into an area everyone should think "oh **** better pull AA because they can **** up our tanks and liberators and turn the tide".

Instead it's...

Time to pull my point and click AA and **** them up because they might have it in them to empty a billion clips into my mother ******* sundy (which I have left in the open with not cover to speak of, what was I thinking huh?) just to give it a flat tire (which can be instantly repaired by that random engineer, for free, who happens to be running around with his other engineer buddy's who I have not met nor care to meet)... all whilst they pull off moves I couldn't be bothered to learn so **** it Ill just pull my MAX and shoot at him... he can't see me anyway because I am small and can shoot at him from inside my little tower and even if he did he wouldn't do much damage because his OP rocket pods are basically useless and I can just walk away unscathed and be repaired whilst shooting... Oh look two other dudes have done the same. That means if he doesn't see us, which most of the time he won't because we are tiny and don't render until 5m out from him, we'll kill him in 0.2secs instead of 0.6... Oh look I got xp for hitting him... and xp for assisting the kill. See you in 3 to 20 minutes newb pilot! Oh and that's if he has enough resources left! I am so naughty today. Whew. That point and click has really tired me out. Now Ill just switch my MAX arms to AI or AT or both (gosh I am feeling crazy today so let's go both) and run to the next base which is a whole 40m away or I could just jump in this random dudes Sundy who is obviously going in that direction because lattice is so straight forward to use, just follow the little line. AA is so hard... wow it was really difficult to point and click at that guy. Imagine if I was a HA, I would have to wait a whole 10secs just to respawn a short distance away and I would have lost... my KDR score. Gosh could you imagine?

(Sorry I got carried away. I'm just passionate. Honest)

A bit like pilots shouldn't come to the forums and complain that they got killed by ground forces in a " combined arms " game ?

As you say it's a two way street, and air is not and should not live in it's own separate bubble that removes them from needing to rely on combined arms as well ...

^ +100

Fair enough. You can have your laser guided AA, but I want a map reset and team shuffle every 15 minutes.

Or people who don't like to be killed in less than a second by weapons with a humongous splash radius because aiming is too much of a requirement for vehicle users.

I will agree (mostly) with the original post.

Assuming that the maximum 75(74?) degree field of view is accurate, then you have about 5(360/75 = 4.8) sectors to cover around you, and assuming that there is also a 75 degree vertical field of view you also have 2 vertical sectors to cover(with a good bit of overlap). This presents a single player that has decided to pull AA duty with 10 sectors that they need to cover. Combine that with a vertical dead-zone(try looking straight up, you cannot) and you have a recipe for anyone pulling AA to lose unless they have a decent amount of other people (2+) backing them up.

I can attest that pulling a single burster max is worthless. Any aircraft that get's the drop on you will either outright kill you or force you to move into cover to wait for repair, and the same is also true for heavy assaults. Combine this with the fact that aircraft tend to very good at only killing one target at a time, and it is far more economical to just put some flak armor on and ignore the threat. Because the chances of a single esf killing you in a crowd of infantry is very low, and by the time that such a large number of esf arrive that you can no longer ignore them you are going to realize that you are being farmed and it is time to go find another more economical fight (you gotta get those certs, and you cannot get those certs while you're dying).

One of the biggest problems for me has always been that fighting aircraft from the ground is painfully boring. The general strategy involves waiting for the aircraft to either come closer (easier shot), or to begin an attack run on you (very easy shot). At that point is just comes down to simple DPS. If you have enough DPS then the ESF will either die or run, and if you do not have enough DPS then you'll die and that will be the end of it. All the other possible matchups have the potential to involve a great deal of maneuvering (TvT, IvT, IvI, AvA), but TvA, and IvA all seem to devolve into jousting.

(T=tank, I=infantry, and A=air)

How do you make those two matchups more interesting than just simple jousting? I have no idea, because there is such a discrepancy in mobility that you will either have the firepower to kill the aircraft or you're dead, and so mobility will really only play a role for the aircraft. There just isn't much that an infantryman or tanker can do in regards to maneuvering (there are some exceptions, but they tend to be of limited use and often require you to stop fighting. Examples include: hiding under a bridge, inside a building, behind a shield, moving backwards to force an aircraft to overshoot, etc...).

Looking at how economically poor it is to fight aircraft (unless you get the kill you'll be bringing in very little experience, and good pilots will only rarely give you a kill), it may just be outright necessary to increase the economic benefit of people taking on dedicated AA roles. There are two ways I can see of doing this: give AA additional roles to fulfill (right now it can act as very weak anti-infantry, and even weaker anti-armor), or finding more ways to give people who perform a dedicated AA role more experience.

TLDR - I really think that AA needs to be more economically feasible for players. Right now you'll make more certs by just ignoring the aircraft and just fighting the infantry and tanks, and then moving once the aircraft become too much of a problem.

AI nosegun with AB fuel (280 to max AB fuel cert, 100 for AI nosegun) is a rather low level of entry for a very competent farm machine.

Max out scout (DEM SPOT XPz! ) , Composite armor, and hover or speed frame (I opt for speed as it pairs nicely with AB fuel)

People must calm themselves and not try to avenge every their single death. Thats stupid and childish. This is common problem and is shared across all the times you die, except ESFs are harder to reach with your vengeance, thus people hate it.

Bahahaahahahahaha you're a funny guy. What's your name? Miuku. Ok I'll remember that. Phew. You had me going for a minute there bro.

Wait... You're serious?

Huh ?


Why write down a wall of text when it's pretty clear that ROCKET PODS were the problem with ESFs.
Your OP is far fetched; the only reason ESFs are despised is the long lasting memory of constant infantry farming, coupled with a bit of tank-killing insanity. Now ESFs are "balanced" because rocket podders don't stand a chance against any A2A ESF.


In the end it's all about ESFs avoiding large battles due to a large Flak barrage and farming small infantry units or playing their own, separate A2A game.

Because if the A2G ESF ever had to exist, it would have been either:
-Hover Attack Chopper (AI noseguns)
-Anti-vehicle "support" (think EMP/Conc/Smoke bombs)

I think the most important point is that gameplay is boring for ground when fighting air (don't confuse the joy of shooting down an enemy pilot who got greedy with the gameplay of shooting her down). Air gameplay is fun but AA forces you to have no gameplay (and therefore no fun).

Lockons are boring but im not dropping 350 resources to bring out flak for a few fighters which are the vehicle equivalent of the smg infiltrator. Thats what HA is for, big magazine LMGs + AA weapons (only lockons and Lancer right now).

The goal is not to fight air, its to make them go away - and hopefully not come back. I love it when people drop pod on a tower, I enjoy the gameplay looking for that super fast LA or infil that's way more skilled than me. I like fighting MAXs - as long as there isn't too many (ZOE!!!!). I like the teamwork and gameplay involved in these things. Tanks are fun to shoot and a kill feels really good.

Flying is fun, shooting ground targets is fun. AA stops me having fun.

There is no interesting gameplay between air and ground so how do you fix that? One option is to make air capable of staying around for longer but being less of a threat as a result - I don't think many pilots would like that.

Another is to is give more interesting AA weapons that scale with skill for all scenarios, New max AA cannons that are like fractures - I loved trying to AA with fractures but they nerfed them pretty hard for long range. A vehicle that requires direct hits (mount the default nose/locust cannons on a lightning). A shoulder launcher that uses direct hit or semi-active.

Composite armour needs to be buffed and lockon range needs a nerf (to 350m) as well as constant player aim locks (but increase the missile speed).


There needs to a a more granular range of combat options in surface to air gameplay, a combination of powerful skilled weaponry or less skilled less effective weapons. Lockons need to be replace with something more fun. The Lancer is the shining example of this with the Phoenix a close second and the Striker an example of laziness.

There are a lot of counters to ESFs, the problem is they aren't necessarily intuitive.

ESFs take fire from small arms. A medic with an assault rifle who has a good idea of their own bullet velocity can actually do a surprising amount of damage to an ESF. The problem with this is they are one of three vehicles that do, and the other two look flimsy (harasser, flash) while the ESF looks relatively solid by comparison. Chances are you'll encounter your first ESF after you encounter your first sunderer/tank, and you'll have already learned that shooting solid-looking vehicles is a big fat waste of time and ammo. So people don't try.

Everyone in the game can pull a burster MAX w/one arm. I know this because everyone starts with one. A single burster won't kill an ESF, but with half-decent aim it'll certainly give one pause.

Everyone in a sunderer or MBT can mount a basilisk on the roof, and basilisks are perfectly adequate at anti-ESF duty.

I think the new ESF update needs time to settle, and on top of that some of their 'new player friendly' weapon systems might need to have their pricing reconsidered; 1000 certs/700sc for a 'new player' weapon system strikes me as a little odd.

For myself, I feared ESFs a lot more before I got into the pilot seat and mucked around with them. When you've flown an aircraft a bit you get an appreciation for its weaknesses, and in knowing that it makes enemy ESFs less scary.

So I'm going to disagree slightly with the OP:

It's not that people are helpless, it's purely that they feel helpless because they don't know that there are things they can do.

This isn't going to help.

I'll write a response when I get back, if there's still any point.