Why ESFs are Despised, and Always will be

I'm not bothered too much by ESF's and I get farmed like the rest.

What does irritate me about them is that they aren't like real aircraft. They don't have to strafe or make attack "runs".

They are 30th century hover-copters and as such pull off stupid moves with the ability to chase the poor little infantryman to his death without the ground-pounder even having a chance at striking back.

Not to mention it's one of the few vehicles that can regularly kill squads of troops at one go.

It isn't so evident when the pop is high, but when the pop is low ESF's are nearly impossible to kill.

Liberators are even worse at low pop with the added ability to kill a tank in a second or two. Many times with the tank driver not being able to react in time to bail-out.

It is the hover mechanic that makes these things ridiculous at certain times. Other than this, the aircraft are tolerable.

I'll agree with this. The jealousy part was my own bias, my own experience with the issue. Shouldn't have generalized my experience with ESFs before I become a pilot, to that of others. I did want to touch on tanks though, because many talk about tanks outperforming ESFs. I may have went about it the wrong way though. I do believe that tanks are much more accessible then ESFs though. I would edit that part if I could, but hopefully it doesn't detract from the post as a whole too much.

Sorry, but you're completely wrong and the OP is right.

I remember one time I was in a MAX suit running across a field south of Allatum Research Lab equipped with dual Hacksaws (don't ask why lol). It was late night and I happened across a single Prowler. Fortunately for me I was on a little knoll, so as the tank tried to drive around it to get a shot on me I would either run around the edge or over the top and he would have to drive all the way around the other side to get a shot on me. With nanite autorepair any hits he managed to get on me were erased. This went on for probably about five minutes - there was just no way he could get an angle on me long enough to kill me. Eventually a couple outfit mates in a Harasser and a random HA with a missile launcher showed up and killed him. An ESF would have been like 'lol wuts defilade' and podded me to death.

The point is that fighting tanks requires players to think, move, and utilize cover, and generally the infantry player will be able to disengage if he so desires. Fighting ESFs requires the player to stand in a spot sort of close to overhead cover, wait for the ESF to make a pass, and then hope the ESF will be exposed long enough to get a lock.

I also probably should have mentioned in my post that I also agree that tanks are easier to get into than ESFs, but for a different reason. I think starting out, there are less things you need to cert into on tanks to start to really get into tanks, whereas you need to cert into a bunch of things on an ESF to have a chance against other ESFs. Basically, I feel that ESFs are not hard to use, but are really cert heavy, which scares off potential pilots. However, once their certed into well enough, they can do too much. It's kinda funky.

I don't think ESFs are despised any more than liberators (or hell, prowlers.) ESFs aren't as flagrantly powerful at A2G as they were months ago and people have lots of counters now.

The problem really is that the air/anti-air relationship is so binary in this game; either you have some AA and aircraft basically have to run away or die, or you don't and a handful of pilots can easily kill many times their number at will.

I personally think aircraft should be a bit more durable, but also less lethal. That would lower the skill floor a bit and make them less frustrating to fight against.

I think PS2's major Air design flaw/problem is that they did away with the old PS1 idea of the Mozzy as an A2A fighter and the Reaver as an A2G fighter and created the ESF all-in-one superfighter...... it's a mistake that will, I fear, haunt PS2 forever (or at least until they introduce a specialised A2A or A2G fighter).

I like ESFs. I like to fly my scout banshee harvester. I also like to use my grounder against them.

Disagree.
I find AA very enjoyable and I can get many kills in a skyguard, burster MAX, or an AA gun on a tower.
Or better yet, a lib with a Shredder. That absolutely destroys ESF.

Striker or Annihilator? Good luck with that...

Thread needs to be stickied. Every pilot needs to read this.

(warning: Heavily biased in ESFs favor)

I respectfully disagree.

1-You claim that ESFs have no L2P aspect towards them. I believe once you get killed by an ESF or notice one you should pull out AA. If ESFs are indeed the problem then you shouldnt hesitate to:

1. Get to the neareast AA turret (provided at all major facilities)
2. Switch your MAX to AA
3. Pull a burster MAX
4. Press 3 for AA option (heavy assault)
5. Get a skyguard

Those right there are 5 rather simple things that only ONE player (out of the major farmfest taking place) has to do to get rid of air in that battle.

2- No way to successfully hide: Whilst i sort of agree with this, i believe things can be do to avoid this death. ESFs have very distinct noises which can be heard from very far away so if you hear one at least try to break up from the clump of infantry or get indoors. ESFs also appear on the map and can be spotted by your multiple allies which should have the ability (or learn the ability) to look at the sky. I do not agree with the statement that ESFs swoop in and kill multiple targets. Each target requires (sort of guessing from my experience) 5 rockets to kill a single person, I doubt a player can swoop in and shoot 5 rockets during the swoop at a single target then continue his path

3- ESF ruined my amazing flank: I'm going to have to refer to the point above and mention an important word. Situation awareness.
Judging by the fact you were sniping it should become even easier to hear the ESF due to your distance from the battle. Admittedly, i do not have much experience sniping and im not that good at it but i would imagine a sniper should look out for tanks crossing his way.

I am also an infantry unit, i have never died twice to the same lolpodder in the same battle. All your arguments revolve around the fact that the enemy had no AA presence and refused to pull any form of it (despite the 5 points i mentioned above). If you are unwilling to pull the counter for something then you should not expect it do drop down and die.

I'll get to the tank points later. Sorry.

Remove the hover, make it a skill to fly them rather than a macro button fest.

Then why say it

Ermm.
If it wasnt important then why did you quote it?

Helipros in the BF:BC series were despised for owning the **** out of infantry with little to no way to fight back as an infantry man.


Then they improved the velocity of the AT4.





Oh **** son, come get your medicine.


Pilots complained but not to the extent of if it were a lockon weapon, because guide by wire OHK against air vehicles is absolutely terrifying in hands of a pro, but the vast majority of gamers will suck at using them.

With an infantry weapon like this, now the dynamic is changed. No longer can infantry say that theres nothing they can do against pilots, and now pilots cannot fearlessly farm infantry, and pilots cannot complain about skilless weapons shooting them down.

Skill vs skill.

When pilots are shot down, they are driven to want to out-juke the AT4 jockeys on the ground.

When infantry get farmed, they are driven to want to become pro at the AT4.


Ages ago during the dominion of Bad Company 2, I too felt bitter against pilots, I didn't know the AT4 could be used to shoot them down. I thought you had to tag them with the dart to have a chance to shoot them down.

Then these AT4 montage videos started coming out and it inspired me, maybe I could do that too.

Took some time to get used to driving a missile, but once I got the hang of it, I no longer despised pilots or participated in chopperwhore threads.

I had a skill based counter that I was getting ever better at using. It was fun and extremely satisfying to use, and I didn't mind if a chopper farmed me 5 times, cause eventually my rocket is going to make sweet love to your face.

And then when you get really good, you start taking out choppers that fly in predictable trajectories when they are en route to the battlefield, and you actually feel a tingle of pity for them. Like 'wow, that must have sucked for them.. LUL'.

But anyays, I said it since this game first came out, it used to be a part of my forum signature. HAs need a shoulder-mounted guide by wire rocket that does dumbfire damage to air vehicles, nerfed annihilator damage to land vehicles, does no splash damage, and possibly nerfed damage to infantry.

The point of the weapon would be to be a skill-based counter to air vehicles, and would need to be fast, have the range of vehicle render distance, and at the very least put an ESF in DEEP fire. Could be nerfed in every way imaginable against ground armor and infantry. Have it do 0 damage to infantry and ground vehicles if necessary.

And I just checked ravic's channel on the PERFECT DAY this morning, cause the man that got me hooked on the AT4 does it again in with the SRAW.





Who am I kidding though, there is 0% chance the weapons guys at SOE would ever get such a weapon right.

They finally gave dumbfires some good velocity but at the same time prenerfed the projectile drop lol.

No, we'll be forced to rely on lockon weapons till the end of the game.

Here I am again with the kind of negative posts that Luperza talks about, but **** me does your weapon's balancer deserve it.

Agree with most of this except for the restriction of AA.

If you wait for an ESF to get within 200m or so of your skygaurd and to slow down for his attack, the time it takes for him to panic at the unexpected attack whilst he's pre-occupied and then accelerate to safety, usually means you can pull off the full kill rather than simple suppression.

When i first joined PS2 it was when air was massively OP and i had to invest in lockons just so that a sunderer-infantry assault couldn't be entirely foiled by a single ESF. Having a Walker on your sundy is a great deterrant and forces an ESF pilot to utilise his skill rather than float there and make target practice of 2 dozen players. But AA shouldn't be restricted to a limited (infantry/tank) resource. That is dangerous.

I do agree with the turret issue though, usually a bases defenses are pre-hacked/destroyed ahead of a coordinated zerg, but even if they're not, they get obliterated in a few shots by 1 or 2 tanks. There should be an emphasis on attacking the turrets with infantry like what you'd see on a D-Day landing as opposed to just shelling a base like a bedtime routine. They should really have a tank shell resistance so they actually have to be overpowered.

An ESF should be the equal to its ground counterpart the Lightning, but it simply is not. The lightning is limited in its movement due to terain, has to choose either AP, AV, or AA, while an ESF can be effective at many. The lightning has many counters, AT mines, C4 (which most classes have), Rocket launchers, Maxes, other Tanks, Turrets and so on. The ESF has fewer counters and most are less effective. In fact almost every class has a AV counter, but few have effective AA. The ESF is way better at disengaging, they do not have to think about direction of damage unlike the lightning. The ESF can swoop in, unload, and disappear in a short time and repeat, the lighting cannot, speed and maneuverability should come at a cost.

So in all reality it is to powerful with to few of effective counters, and lets be honest it is often used for griefing. So solutions? Removing hover will not happen due to game mechanics with landing and landing pads. Anti infantry rockets removed is possible, more AA counters or more effective ones maybe (the most effective current AA are trees I suspect). Perhaps raise their resource cost due to its effectiveness? There was a suggestion of making them purely AA or having to choose a load out that is only AA or AG instead of being effective at all. I don't know, but as it stands they are fairly poorly designed and imbalanced and should be adjusted or they will be greatly hated until they are. They are probably one of the biggest frustration for newer players. Due to my own harassment before owning a lock on, I have an adamant hate for air and will make a point of always killing or focusing on them first.

Notice how slow all those helicopters are moving. ESFs in this game aren't just helicopters, they're also jets that can very easily outrun dumbfire and manual-guidance missiles. There's a reason why the Phoenix is only used against oblivious hoverpodders rather than as a primary AA weapon. Though technically a lot of modern helicopters could probably move as fast as our ESFs if they wanted to, Battlefield just nerfs their top speed so that hitting them with a manually-guided missile is feasible.

Even in Battlefield 2 using a SRAW against a low-flying helicopter was not terribly difficult, but if you wanted to take down a jet your only hope was to find a stationary AA emplacement with lock-on missiles or grab an AA vehicle that could fire lock-on missiles.

This wouldn't be a weapon dependent on your skill, it would be dependent on waiting for your enemy to hand you the kill on a silver platter. You want to add skill to lockons? Make flares an inherent ability of aircraft that does not occupy a slot, and modify their behavior so that there's counterplay between smart flare usage and locking the target between flares.

Though really, even just making flares standard issue without changing them would pretty much make it so if you get killed by a lockon, it's your own fault. Hell, considering how many hits you can take, even without flares it's your own fault unless us people on the ground use this magical thing called teamwork.

Just take two hits, fly away, repair, resume farm, repeat. It's not like us infantry can chase you.

Part of the problem is that every other vehicle in ps2 abides by the laws of known world physics, the esf even being vtol does not abide by these laws. A fast stop, reversing spiral climb, nose down hover, flat yaw spin to change direction, acceleration like ssc bloodhound, and all this with a full load of ammo, rockets that have mass but strangely are only effected by gravity after they leave the gun?

If this is the case then why is everyone always attacking me when I say MAXes are overpowered? Do people like getting farmed by MAXes?
Or is it because any BR5 can jump into a MAX suit and instantly make himself way more competitive on the playing field, whereas if he'd jump into an ESF he'd just vaporize in a matter of mere seconds.