Removing the reverse manoeuver is like taking the Ski out of Tribes...

...only because it originated as a bug.


By removing it, you're going to destroy the single most important thing that is needed the most in gaming recently:
Originality

It's unique. It sets PS2's flight model apart.
Don't kill the Jet/Chopper/Spacecraft hybrid you've created.

They're not removing it, they're nerfing it.

While I'm in favor of nerfing, to be realistic, they're not doing it for balance reasons. They're doing it because they want to get more people in the sky. With the ESF update, they want to get as many people in the sky as they possibly can. That way they'll buy more weapons. The Harasser gold mine ran dry not long ago, and they need a new "flavor of the month" to make you buy Station Cash. That is the singular reason this is going through. Expect to see some reversion of said nerf when the next vehicle/vehicle update is released around Octoberish.

Your reasoning is counter-intuitive. If they are nerfing it to get more people in the sky, they should not remove people from the sky to do so. All this does is alienate the existing dedicated pilots, either removing them from the picture entirely, or more likely just making them adapt. This will still mean there are dedicated pilots of a skill level much higher than new pilots that will shoot down new pilots en masse. The thing that makes the new pilots competitive is the weapons, which will do that job nicely without these frankly asinine nerfs.

After reviewing this for a while, I'm kind of with the pilots on this one.

The stated reason behind this nerf, was to make the maneuver more difficult. It has not made it more difficult, it has made it impossible. If it were to increase to skill needed to perform the maneuver that would be one thing, but as is, the maneuver is no longer possible. This is not realistic, this is lowering the skill cap for arbitrary reasons.

Players that I know that are highly skilled are furious because they truly enjoy Air combat, because of how interesting and original it is. SOE Management have stated in the past that if you don't like the maneuver, don't fly; yet now they are removing it. The only thing I see possibly undoing this, is if the Cert line for fuel pods undoes the nerf, so that skilled pilots will be ones flying around with a rotary and fuel pods certed out the ***, while new pilots run around with the ESF easy mode weapons still being semi-competitive, but the problem with that, as a friend of mine put it, is that by doing that you are raising the barrier for entry, and introducing the unspoken obligation to force unskilled pilots to buy weapons to be competitive. To be a Great pilot, you have to cert into your fuel pods 100% and have great flying skill, which is kind a roundabout way of doing things

I think you sort of made my point for me Ash. SOE previously said if you don't like the maneuver, don't fly. They are now changing the maneuver so that more people DO fly. The thing is, all the pilots in the sky right now have already spent money on their ESFs. Most of the old pilots, I don't believe, have any interest in the new weapons. So now they're trying to tap into a new market.

Even if they lose a few pilots, I think they're banking on the influx of newer pilots to make up for the dollars. I mean, lets be honest, there are few "ace" ESF pilots in the sky.

I would also not be surprised to see a Harasser nerf accompany this.

Although they did want to make the Fuel Pod loadout more "competitive" so if this enacts as you and I hope it will, it will just be a nerf to Rocket loadouts while keeping dogfighting loadouts fast and agile. That would be nice. However, a straight nerf across the board would be bad for everyone involved.

Oh dear, they are removing the ability to fly backwards at the same speed of forwards? How preposterous of them!! I can't believe they are actually making fighters out of these crafts instead of helicopters!!!

VTOLs.

Powered by nanites.


Also, people don't revive in real life

I hate the pilot self nerfing attitude... why can't we reverse and carry pods?
I'm sorry but, flying is a freak ton harder than footslogging... insanely harder...
RIDICULOUSLY HARDER...
I've been ground pounding quite a bit lately... and it's not even in the same realm...

Why wouldn't old ESF pilots want the new weapons?

They are fine as is, with what they have, but the vulcan wings, or the Mass driver seem like they could be great in the hands of a more skilled pilot.

That is a ton of potential customers lost. The weapons just make it easier for new pilots to compete, that doesn't mean old pilots can't use them. Infact considering someone who flies now has ton of money or certs already invested, then your talking about a drop in the pan for them to buy 3 more weapons.

And again, your raising the barrier for entry. This is not a good idea when it comes to getting people into the air.

I say helicopter because they act more like one than a VTOL good sir.

Edit: And doctors would like to have a word with you about people not being revived in real life

And your right.

This is my problem with it as is though: The nerf doesn't make a reverse thrust maneuver Hard, it makes it impossible with a stock fighter. If someone could do the reverse thrust but only go at 25-50% speed that'd be something, but from all the demonstrations I have seen, it cuts your speed 100% when you do a reverse thrust maneuver.

This is bad not because it makes people invest in their preferred method of combat, but because: Is there any other precedent? There isn't something that you cert into with tanks, that makes them 100% more effective. It's picking on pilots and making them cert if they want to be all they can be... and for what?

I will say, that nerfing the standardized loadout for ESFs is great, but TBH they better make the Fuel pods awesome upgrades if they are going to replace Every Other Possible wing loadout.

It's not a gentle nerf.
The thrust "factor" goes from 8 to 2, and although I have strictly no idea what it means, having tested it, it's the same as a removing it.


Now you might want to ask the question:
Who are the people you see flying in the sky ?
I would not replace disgruntled aces by rookies with a 1 minute lifespan.

If you are looking for a "flying barrier":
Rocket pods, Composite armor, Flares, Auto-repair, Airframes.....

Bad pilots without rocket pods try to dogfight aces, die, never fly again
Bad pilots with rocket pods just constantly farm infantry

I see the latter a lot

I thought it went from 8 to 2. Did they decide to loosen it up a bit?

Tweaking it is not removing it. Come on man, I'm sure you'll adjust and still pwn.

You can still do the same maneuver, it'll just be a bit slower. Pushing an entire plane's surface area against air resistance is very hard to do, and shouldn't be done at 'forward speed' momentum, sorry

My bad, typo.

The plane is coated in nanites which lessens the air resistance.


Have you tried it in the test server ?
It's a removal.

Unless you're flying below 50 kph, at which point you're already dead in a dogfight.

More people in the air is good and all, but air wasn't the reason there isn't more people in the air, it's the people on the ground that you have to worry about. Oh you might be chased and shot down spectacularly by an Ace who performs a Reverse Maneuver perfectly when you managed to jump them, but even that Ace will be sent shooting off into the distance with the presence of one Burster MAX on the ground, or someone with a Striker, Ranger, AA turret, Skyguard, Vulcan, Walker, AA rocket launcher, Basilisk or even a Anti-armor equipped tank with good aim.

This is all before we include all the fancy new ESF weaponry coming into the mix. All of are designed to fight against air, something pretty much already set with what weapons are available now since Rotaries kill pretty darn fast anyway.

Until Flares come standard for one thing, I don't think the air game will be any more appealing to new pilots unless they really want to be part of the non-existent air influence over the course of a battle against any enemy team with a brain. ESFs currently suffer the same problem of NC MAXes, in that they require substantial investment to become remotely effective at what they have to go up against. A new pilot will be stressed out with all the stuff that will be shot in their direction, on top of dealing with terrain obstacles, something nothing else in the game even has to concern themselves with. And this is with current resource costs of vehicles on top of a timer you have to invest in.

Point I'm getting at is, nerfing/removing the maneuver changes nothing for new pilots apart from a small fraction of what they have to worry about.

I am giving you possible rationales and reasons. I don't believe the amount of pilots lost will outweigh the amount of new pilots gained once they realize that their hated maneuver has been nerfed. I believe you are over estimating how many habitual pilots are actually out there. I typically see the same couple names in ESFs every time I go into the sky.

it's a nerf not a removal you silly forumsiders

you can still do it, especially with hover 3

The distance between fact and perception is about as wide as the Grand Canyon good sir. It doesn't matter if there's more to worry about. It's about getting people in the sky who now believe they have a shot, so they spend money on new weapons.

The one interesting, and arguably good, thing about the air combat in this game is that it is a world made up of aces and accomplished wingmen. I think it's a good thing, as it means there are relatively few "air zergs" in the game, because pilots are good enough to effectively counter one another and to scare off any dumb noobs who think, "I bet I can get lots of kills and few deaths in a plane!" By opening it up, SOE is just going to antagonize infantry and armor players because a new zerg is going to start showing up and bulldozing opposition. I'm worried that SOE will just think, "oh well, we'll give infantry and armor weapons to OS planes" and call that balance. I think the vehicle-side of this game should be, hmm, a bit mean to get into, as that will help to dissuade noobs and weak-kneed power gamers from abusing them and ruining the game play for everyone else.