The real resistance reduction due to ZOE...(hint: it's bigger than 20%)

All the TR and NC are complaining about speed ZOE gives being OP because it makes it harder to hit and that it only produces a 20% resistance loss. Well I'm here to tell you those numbers are crap and that the same speed the TR/NC scrubs whine about is an entire weakness in it's own right. Here's why:

Pocket engy's are an essential part of effective MAX play (the exception being a MAX crash or kamikazi MAX, the latter of which I see no real purpose for other than to waste resources). This is why you see pocket engy's following MAX's all the time. One of the greatest things about MAX's is that they move slower than infantry allowing the pocket engy to walk behind his MAX and maintain a constant repair link (except for the cooldown period of the engy tool). This repair link in fact adds resistance in its own right due to it restoring HP whenever damage some taken.

So how much does this repair link actually help? Well lets assume a simple 5% since the level 3 of Kinetic reduces the required bullets to kill by 1 (and we can viably say that a fully certed tool will negate at least 1 bullet). This means that the repair link provides an extra 5% of small arms (and rocket resistance, but that's not to be discussed here) resistance on top of the 80% base, or 85% total. If you throw in full kinetic that moves up to 92.5% small arms resistance.

Now what does ZOE do? It increases movement speed. One of those movement speeds is the basic walking speed. It in fact, increases the forward walking speed beyond that of a normal infantry (I don't have the actual numbers on hand, you can search the forum for the guy that did the empirical testing, I think it was Zapon but I could be wrong). It's not by a whole lot but it is faster. This means that it is impossible for an engy to repair a ZOE MAX when it's walking forward or backwards (since the engy can't sprint and repair at the same time).

Since there is no repair link, there is no added resistance from the engy. So what kind of small arms resistance does the ZOE MAX get? Well it's suppose to be 20% redux at the end of the line. Since base MAX is 80% that would be 64% or a -16% redux. If you look at full kinetic, you'd be looking to go from 87.5% to 70% or -17.5% redux.

Now what are the stats for these two different types of MAX's



**NOTE: While it is possible to get that extra engy resistance, to do that you have to stand still which means you turn into a giant target for any scrub with a dumbfire rocket to gib you.

So lets compare those MAX's. Since a non-ZOE MAX (TR/NC MAX) can carry his pocket engy into a fight, without full kinetic there is a 21.5% difference in armor resistance vs his ZOE counterpart which can't keep that pocket engy. If both of them have full kinetic, the difference comes to 22.5% in armor resistance.

Therefore the real cost of ZOE isn't a 20% reduction in armor, it's at least a 21.5% reduction in armor (22.5% with full kinetic). If a pocket engy's link provides more than 5%, that difference will do nothing but increase point for point.

In conclusion, the speed that the NC and TR complain so much about isn't just a strength, but it's also a weakness and actually reduces the armor by a minimum of 21.5%, probably more. ZOE doesn't just make you faster, it makes you significantly weaker, more so than SOE created it to be.

So...ZOE is UP because engies can't keep up with it?

Roger that.

No, people cry for nerfs based on perception and not on actual statistics.

It's more about attentional bias and the bandwagon effect that drives these people to cry for nerfs.

I didn't say it was UP, I said the ZOE MAX is weaker than a regular MAX because it is impossible to have a pocket engy assist it. It's more of food for thought because your pocket engy isn't something you normally think about when playing as a MAX unless you've lost a lot of health and go looking for one to repair you. They are in fact incredibly important in slow push advances as they allow a regular MAX to do exactly what ZOE does, take on a room full of infantry without dying.

Wow

The fact that an engineer cant keep up with a ZOE is a weak argument. No engineer can keep up with a full speed harasser.

Avoidance is always better and has far better synergy than mitigation. The extra damage is meaningless when a ZOE max can run to safe spot with a engineer quicker than any max. The fact that they can turn off the ZOE anytime they want means that they can avoid the extra damage anyway.

Speed is always useful, mitigation only works when you are taking damage.

I think the ZOE max should keep its speed, but cannot be repaired while on and it should take 2 second to turn on or off.

False...obviously you haven't used a Harasser before.

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2...repair-harassers-from-the-rumble-seat.130767/

LAWYERED!


Also if I ZOE can't be repaired while it's activated, then LD and Aegis MAX's shouldn't be able to be repaired while used either.

I'd like to correct some of the calculations. First off, in the patch notes it said that armor efficiency was reduced and the reduction is widely believed to be 20%. However, there are two ways to measure armor efficiency: Damage resistance and damage susceptibility, one is the complement of the other. The question then becomes, upon which does the ZOE operate?

If it operates on damage susceptibility, then the new susceptibility is (0.2 - 0.025*n)(1 + 0.2), where n = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5} to account for kinetic armor. I'm also assuming kinetic armor is applied before ZOE.
If it operates on damage resistance, then the new resistance is (0.8 + 0.025*n)(1 - 0.2).

However, since it said reduction, then we can assume for the sake of simplicity and common sense that they meant a reduction in resistance.

In your next point, you mentioned that the "repair link" provides an increase in damage resistance. However, I'd like to note the fact that when repairing, you're essentially taking "negative" damage. So the repair link operates on the damage susceptibility. However, the fact is that the change varies based on the damage and then further on repair tool certs! Let's see why:

Assuming during an arbitrary time you take damage D while being repaired with a base repair of R. That R then increases with a percent factor c based on the certs. Let's also assume you have damage resistance A where A = 0.8 + 0.025*n. Then for a regular max:

Damage = D*(1 - A) - (1 + c)R

Furthermore, we can express R with D and a rational number k i.e. R = k*D.

Damage = D*(1 - A) - (1 + c)*k*D = D*((1 - A) - (1 + c)*k))

And for a ZOE max, under the assumption ZOE operates on A:

Damage = D*(1 - 0.8A) - (1 + c)*k*D = D*((1 - 0.8A) - (1 + c)*k))

Thus for a regular max, the new damage resistance is:
Resistance = 1 - ((1 - A) - (1 + c)*k)) = A + (1 + c)*k = 0.8 + 0.025*n + (1 + c)*k

And for a ZOE max:
Resistance = 1 - ((1 - 0.8A) - (1 + c)*k)) = 0.8A + (1 + c)*k = 0.64 + 0.02*n + (1 + c)*k


Since k = R/D:

Regular max: 0.8 + 0.025*n + (1 + c)*(R/D)
ZOE max: 0.64 + 0.02*n + (1 + c)*(R/D)

In other words, when damage increases that repair benefit decreases and is not constant wrt to damage as you assumed.

Ok man all this wall of useless texte to say that you calculate a 1.5 % difference ? and what it mean you think in the combat 1.5% on a maxs suits ? yeah basically nothing

Even a 50 % damage increase wont balance the ZOE maxs its a awefull design that need to be remoove from the game , it was a really bad idea infantry players arent the free kills for everyones who want to abuse vehicules and maxs ,

a maxs as to be high risk high reward the maxs have been balanced around been slow and slugish thats the only balance establish with them , and with ZOE it ruins this balance

C4 , rockets , and cats and mouse play are the worst ennemy of the maxs suits , TR and NC maxs remain under this level

ZOE maxs as overcome this handicap and are now more fast than infantry they have much much more armor than infantry and they hold dual weapons up to 75 shot each 150 shot who kill in 6 shot 3x2 combine thats mean 3 shot ttk your dead and 1.5 in the head

Though I disagree with the idea it can make maxes weaker but you are right that it is incredibly frustrating to try and repair a ZOE max and almost impossible at times. They run way to fast for a repairing Engi and it makes me laugh everytime one blows past me with less than half health looking for a engie only to be ignorant to know that a trail of engi's are following trying to repair.

Good God, where is your interpreter?

It's actually less than 20%...

See, now the OP is trying to make ou there is an issue with ZoE that simply doesn't exist.

Furthermore the real issue with ZoE isn't the bonuses it gives or even the mobility.

It is the fact that you can turn it on and off at will, there is no duration, no cooldown.

If a ZoE Max walks in and you can't kill it there and then, you can't escape either.

ZoE can keep it's bonuses but it needs to either be an activation like charge with a set duration and cooldown.
OR
A short duration toggle. similar in duration and usage to a jetpack.

It's actually an insta-death button that kills everything in the hex. At least, that's how I've come to understand it from the forums...

Short duration with cooldown actually sounds pretty good. 3 secs duration + 15 secs cooldown would still be pretty damn good. And to the OP with his calculations... How many times did I see a ZOE simply jump into a room with 5 or more infantry in it, killing them ALL within seconds and then quickly running back to safety to be repaired... ZOEs don't need and engineer when they charge some infantry. They need them when they retreat after performing another magical bloodbath.

3 second duration? The hell are we supposed to do with that? I mean, if all bullets hit at max damage from both guns:

Quasar: 33 bullets, 7 BTK -> 6 BTK, One more kill
Nebula: 42 bullets, 6 BTK -> 5 BTK, One more kill
Cosmos: 33 bullets, 7 BTK -> 6 BTK, One more kill
Blueshift: 36 bullets, 6 BTK -> 5 BTK, One more kill

So yeah, all we'd gain is one extra kill. To hell with 3 second duration. That'd make ZOE worthless.

So where's the difference to MAXes with charge? I did similar things long before ZOE came around. Go into a room, gun everyone down and then charge away at low health, any MAX can do that.

The fact that a ZOE makes moves faster than infantry, while having more effective HP and better weapons, means it's balanced? Did I read that right? The very fact you have to use such a convoluted argument against ZOE's OPness shows that it is, in fact, OP.

The mobility is what makes ZOE OP. It's not what keeps it from being OP.

0/10