Veeshan and the Nor'I

Seems to me like the Noir'l is Eq2's Truespirit. yet another 'all neutral' force.

you know, you can't have grey, without having black and white. where is the Good and Evil dieties? where are the forces that will make Paladins and Shadowknights?

The shades of grey are on the grander scale. You could go either way. Much like with real world religions can be swayed dark or light. It's the individual that influences the black and white. There are other gods. But they're not tangible either. It all boils down to the individual (you). How you interact and how you influence the world that makes your own story sway one way or the other.

There are so many people in the real world who are raised in a culture of negativity and injustice that don't agree with their surroundings, and use their actions to influence change or reach for a better lot in life. Same goes for any PC in next. Even a dark elf, who's entire culture seems to be immersed in darkness and pain and agony, still sees light and would rather help the trader against Orc bandits than see him suffer.

What about Anashti? What about Mithaniel and Solusek? All of those can be worshipped by evil characters.


Besides, you don't need an evil diety to play an evil character. You define your character - you decide whether you want to be evil or not. Picture a group of players destroying a village in the name of Brell, because there is a rallying call that allows the construction of a city there.

You could even roleplay a character worshipping Anashti as good characters.

Don't be afraid to venture a little more independently. If there's a will...

It's like followers of Veeshan. They could do everything in their power to prove that this world is worthy of its existence and work towards a grand future or believe it's not worthy and do everything they can to destroy it in her name.

let me be a little more clear then.

A Shadowknight aka Blackgaurd aka Fallen Paladin, is a person who thrives on pain, fear, anger, doing things to harm other people for the sheer want of harming, or in service to a deity to whom such acts are empowering. in Eq1/2, these deities are ones like Cazic Thule, Terris Thule, Sarymn, Innorruk, and to some extent, Rallos. So far the ONLY Seraphs I see that would even THINK of supporting a character of this nature are Anashti and MAYBE mithaniel

Mithaniel only might in his War persona. His other and probably primary attribute,however, is Valor. Valor wouldn't abide the actions of a Shadowknight. even Anashti is mostly only in her 'death' persona, as her other influence/persona is basically the dormant half of Nature (fall/winter)

we haven't seen or have at this point a reason to think that there will be a Seraph of Hate/Fear/Torment/Nightmare or anything similar.

We do have perhaps some Seraphs you could see the Paladin from. Mithaniel and Erollisi. Erollisi far more, as Love and Growth woudl be more an embodiment to the virtue, selflessness, sword defending those that can't defend themselves pillars to being a Paladin. Mithaniel only fits his paladin half in his Valor persona, not his War persona, as a Paladin doesn't seek conflict just for the sake of conflict.

While you might for example lessen the 'portions' of Good and Evil and fill more space inbetween on the spectrum with neutrality, there still HAS to be a Good and an Evil to have neutrality at all. and so far, I'm not seeing any.

the lore of this game is more and more not sounding like Norrath at all. and the more it does, the less inclined I feel to go to this world, becuase it certainly is NOT norrath. dropping names from your other games does not make the world of Norrath. it's not the names that make you want to be there, it's the histories and stories that go WITH those names. reimagine them if you want, bend/change the colors in the box. but you can't take the box, make it a circle, and claim that it's the same thing because you call both Box.

the Paladin and the Shadowknight are diametrically opposing classes, and the farthest ends of the spectrum. one is Good, one is Evil. the dieties they serve need to be easily defined as such. not just in 'perception' but in thier very natures, the sphere's of influence that they primarily control.

You killed off Tunare, in a method that leaves a bad taste in alot of peoples mouths. (really? god killed by a race that couldn't even beat the dragons?! the blood of a Goddess of GROWTH somehow creates UNDEAD?!) you've left out the most popular of the 'evil deities', all in favor of a 'choose your own adventure' neutrality. the elves, the bastions of goodness in EQ1/2 are now/were Intergalatic Slavers. the Spires are now basically Stargates. (keep the Sci-fi to Planetside, thank you.) you turned the Koada'dal into an elvish version of the klu klux klan.

This is not Norrath. this is some other world, that your throwing a Norrath name on to try and boost sales, so far. I don't mind a reimagining. for example, I liked the idea of the Ashen Order's origin. I liked that the Teir'dal were Elven Special forces, and that the name has/had more to it then 'this is what we call blue elves'. I liked the concept of the Dragon War(s), that really showcased in a story/game what those dragons are truly capable of rather then just being Big Baddies.

I even liked the corruption in the Dal empire, the actions that spurred the Dragon's to war.

But the elves of norrath weren't into slavery. even the Koada'dal of Eq1 and Eq2 never were into slavery. they chose to prove your inferiority though skill, knowledge, and a scathingly effective politically sharp wit and tongue. the Koada'Dal shouldn't have been made into a norrath KKK, nor should there have been an intergalactic empire. Keep the races of Norrath ON NORRATH.

you coudl have done the exact same animosity creating story by simply making the Dal Empire like Rome. you keep your lands, we appoint our own governors, and you pay Rome a tribute to keep your little 'kingdoms' to yourselves. no need to make dwarves and ogres slaves from other worlds. no need to even INVOLVE other worlds.

Show me with this new deity setup were a Shadowknight would find his dark patron. show me the bastion of light that would inspire a paladin. Show me the world of Norrath in a new light, but remember that the world is STILL NORRATH, and there are some people, some places and ideas...some things that shouldn't be trifled with just for the sake of changing it.

if it isn't broke, it doesn't need to be fixed in a reboot.

Mithaniel isn't the God of Valor anymore. He's the God of war, duty and honor. Any knight, good or evil, can embrace those aspects.
And again, it's the individual, not the world that makes his black and white decisions.

The example of elves being slavers is a perfect example. Not all elves agreed with it. The koada'dal did, feir'dal didn't. Their individual actions made up the whole.

The gods here are intangible and do not influence. You do not pick them as part of your player creation and are stuck with them. Your actions are your own and you create your story.

Stop trying to apply eq1/2 logic to EQN. It's like The Walking Dead. The TV show takes a different path with the story from the comics. Why? Because how are you going to just copy paste a story and expect people's interest to be renewed? I read the comics, every changed has shocked and kept me in suspense....rather than already know what's gonna happen. How dull would that be?

your right. except int eh walking dead, the world is still overrun with zombies. one of the main characters was still a former sherrif. one of the main villains was still a religious nut. they still had a prison turned into a fortress/base of operations. about the only differences in the show and the comic have been some interpersonal relations.

they didn't take 'the walking dead' and place it on Mars, or make them vampires rather then zombies. they didn't take the sherrif and make him a 10 year old kid with a plastic badge who thinks he's a sherrif. they didn't turn the prison into an army base.

they understood there are characters and aspects that you don't alter just because you can.

here's an example. making Firiona Vie a ranger rather then a paladin, fine. making her a Kerran rather then an Elf, not fine. that's a reimaging without destroying a core aspect of the character.

making the Koada'dal stuck up and arrogant, fine. making them willing to commit regicide because they prefer to have the other races as slaves, not fine. making them look down on the Feir'dal as 'country cousins' fine. making them look at the Feir'dal in the same way you look at a cockroach, not fine.

making the spires focus areas of magic that can transport you across norrath, and/or with the proper reagents, to the divine planes, fine. making them startgates that cross the galaxy, not fine. (fantasy vs sci fi)

You seem to see Norrath as just a name for the world. the characters like Venril/Mayong/Lanys/Firiona are just names, to which you can place attributes to whatever narrative you want to play out. if Venril was Teir'dal, you'd have no issue. if Mayong was an iksar, you'd have no problem.

I don't. I see Norrath not just a name with places that can be interchanged at whim, but after 15 years, as a world that has certain inalienalbe aspects to it. and that includes the races and characters. Mayong should always be the Vampire Lord. Venril should always been an Iksar. the Ogres should always have a warlike culture, and the Koada'Dal should always have an arrogant and condecending attitude, but seek out to do the good and right thing.

there better be a Lavastorm and an Everfrost. the Plains of Karana need to exist, and so does the Greater Faydark. the Gods of influence DO have a tangiable effect on the world, wether or not you can actually walk up to them and shake thier hands or slap thier faces.

Trying to 'muddy' the waters just for the shock value or just becuase you can, doesn't make me go 'wow, what a new and thrilling norrath!' it makes me go 'What planet is this? is sure isn't norrath at all. it's Corusant from star wars with the name norrath slapped on it.'

just because we couldn't go to the Plane of Growth, or Mischief, or Storms or Hate in the original EQ, did NOT lessen the impact of the deities. they were manifested in the cultures and CLASSES. you couldn't be an SK or a Paladin without a divine patron. you couldn't be a Cleric without a deity to follow. wether or not you could actually see the God itself.

A paladin and a shadowknight are NOT just 'knights'. they are DIVINE WARRIORS. They draw thier powers from the divine, same as a cleric would. and the very idea that Mithaniel Marr, even in this new 'version' having embraced War and duty, would not accept a Shadowknight. Honor is not an aspect of an SK, nor is Duty. they are devoted to increasing thier own personal power and through thier deeds the power of their gods of pain and darkness and misery.

That is a core aspect to that class. its a defining characteristic. Now where is the god to whom such a being would serve? where are the Evil deities, the darker powers? Where is the nightime, so you know what day is? where are the Gods that are the Goodness, the light to which you know what dark is?...so that you can even HAVE the shadows and greys that make up Neutrality and Ambiguity?

letting players 'make thier own stories' and 'shape the world' doesn't mean the world shouldn't have some rigid edges that you can't bend or break. it doesn't mean that everything has to be made 'neutral' lest someone be offended thier Teir'dal Shadowknight isn't allowed someplace.

they love to talk about a 'life of consequence' that your actions will resonant. and I say that a life of consequence should mean that some things CAN'T be undone, and some of those things should be right at character creation. if you have 40 classes, the choices you make should mean no, you can't have all 40. in fact, I woudl say that no one character should ever be able to even get all 40.

if you follow the paths that lead you to access to a Shadowknight class. then there should be a lot of classes, including the paladin, that you simply can't have. you made a choice to travel dark roads, and that means there are gods and classes and places with whom you will NEVER be welcome.

but right now, I'm not seeing anything that is Good or Evil. I'm not seeing any blacks or whites. and I'm seeing races twisted just for the shock value or to say 'oooh look, shiny! newness! come play in Norrath, even though there's almost nothing 'norrathian' about this new world!"

if you took this version of Norrath, and named it Kuua, and put it next to Eq1 or Eq2's norrath, would you really be able to look at them and say there's enough similarities to say that they are all Norrath? So far I'm not seeing it. I want to be wrong. I want the devs to show me something that screams Norrath. Give me Tunare back. show me Cazic or Inny. show me a faith or a place in EqN that's actually ON NORRATH that will make me think of Neriak or Felwithe and not see just another blob of grey abiguity so that a player won't feel 'left out' of it becuase of the choices they make in race or class or faith.

Er, for places specifically. They HAVE mentioned places that are in good ol' Norrath. The Feerott and Lavastorm being two I can think of.

I think chaos&order is a much cooler concept for deities than good&evil, in the end everyone decides for themselves what's good and whats evil, it's a much more mature concept and i like that. It reminds me of this great minecraft mood called thaumcraft which is about magic crafting.

In thaumcraft everything is made of primal aspects (fire water earth wind chaos and order) combinations of primal aspects form new aspects (for example fire and order form potentia=power, water and wind form motus=motion...) and those can be combined with primal aspects as well as themselves to form even more advanced aspects.
the mod is incredibly well made and has a magical guidebook called the thaumonomicon which is very well written. i recommend you to check it out! The mod has a huge amount of great content, i'd like to see similar content in EQN.

(another great mod just for crafting would be tinkers construct which features alloys and pooring metal in a cast, picking materials for their properties and such, but that one has noting to do with lore so i'd put it on a sidenote)

I think you're too hung up on what it was in a different time line. This is a different timeline. Its still Norrath, the history has just taken a different path. Why would you want to just rehash and relive the same thing over and over again? How dull....

Yes, the Koada'dal are snooty and look down on inferior races....why in the world would you ever think that NONE of them would have the notion to enslave all the lesser beings? How is that so outside any possibility?

The spires in the original game Teleported you to LUCLIN......not only that to other DIMENSIONS and PLANES....it wasn't limited just teleporting around Norrath....What gave you the idea it was only limited to Norrath? And There were other planets in original EQ that we just didn't travel too. All the other gods had dominion over their own worlds, Norrath just became a contested playground of sorts. With the right reagents you say we can travel to other planes....why can't we travel to other planets? We did it with one of the moons...

No one living in the "live game" age has ever seen the gods....they only worship them. For all your character knows, the stories you've heard, are nothing more than stories. And you don't bind a god choice to your characters data....Your actions alone dictate faction/classes and how the world around you reacts to you. If you want to be an evil shadowknight, and you want to go around slaughtering lesser beings and weak people because they are not fit to survive, because only the strong are worthy of Mithaniel....then do it...If you want to slaughter them because you want to envelope the world in Death, then do it in the name of Anashti. If you want to do it because you want blanket the world in darkness and shadow, do it in the name of Luclin/Drinal.....come on, its not that hard.

Hell, if you want to be a ranger who fires arrows from the treetops in the name of Tunare....YOU CAN STILL DO THAT. Nothing in the game is stopping you from doing it. Just because the stories from thousands of years ago say she supposedly died and her blood made the forest, doesn't mean no one can worship her.

And yes, Just like its no longer Tunaria, its Amaril....its still the same Continent. It still has Faydwer and Odus and Kunark....its still Norrath. It still has the Dal, it still has gnomes, it still has Erudites, humans, iksar, shissar....its just following a different path...

And the Renda'Dal of EverQuest II? Nah, let's not talk about those who are ready to murder anyone who is not pure.

So you can travel to the Divine planes, you can travel to the Void, you can travel to the moon Luclin, but you can't travel to another world. Gotcha.

They are personalities. If you were thrust into a different body, and placed in a different time, you'd be you - but different. What would Henry Ford be like in modern day? Would he be successful, or a nobody? Thomas Edison? Johannes Kepler? What if Rutherford B Hayes was Asian? Would he still run for Presidency?

Those 15 years of lore are EXACTLY why it has to be rewritten. If you continue with a lore that convoluted and fragmented, you're bound to make a continuity error, especially when you allow players to make permanent change.

• What happens if the Shissar aren't killed by The Greenmist?
• What happens to the Takish'Hiz if Solusek Ro was STOPPED from turning the Elddar Forest into a desert? What of Kelethin, what of Felwithe?
• What happens to Fippy Darkpaw if Blackburrow is wiped out?
• What happens if your server never creates Freeport? Does Lucan D'Lere ever rise to power?

After a point, the new lore of every server becomes so divergent from the original lore of EverQuest that you have a completely new realm. You might as well start with the reboot, and not worry about making a mistake that the lore buffs will point out.

I'm sorry, I'm just going to have to laugh at you on this.
I had a Dark Elf Shadowknight. I worshipped Innoruuk. I was faithful. I was devout. And no one knew what the heck I was talking about.
In the original EverQuest, your diety was just a check box with a faction alignment. NPCs might treat you differently because you worshiped Veeshan or because you worshipped Bertox, but there wasn't any kind of a real impact from the Gods in the world until much later. Your actions wouldn't bring retribution from your diety, and you sure as heck wouldn't be labeled as a hypocrite or be chastised by NPCs for defaming the name of your chosen God. Choice of deity only affected those who roleplayed.
In EverQuest Next, your religion will mean something much more than ever before.

The Shadowknights of Neriak were the knights of The Dead. They were the chosen few who served to defend the most sacred secrets of the Teir'Dal. Should the Indigo Brotherhood fall like the failures they were, The Dead would stand, defiant to the end. If that is not a code of Honor, if that is not a sense of Duty, then I think you misunderstand the term.
We, of The Dead, worshiped Innoruuk. We spread Hatred, the most divine and glorious of all powers. It is Hatred that purifies, it is hatred that cleanses doubt, and it is hatred that nourishes you in your darkest moments.
Yet those are the words of another time, and another place.

A true Shadowknight will find strength where there is none, will siphon it, sap it, harness it. You would do well to learn from that - and find strength within this new Norrath.

Don't you understand? The Darkness of this new Norrath is far too dark to speak of openly. The horrors that await are not something which the feeble minded can fathom. It would terrify them to the very core of their being.
If you seek the darkness, it shall find you. It shall swallow you whole, and embrace you in its wretchedness.
Don't worry. Horrible things are coming. In this new Norrath, even those who seek to do good do not always fight on the side of Light.

They have not said how long it will take to redeem yourself. If it takes you a decade to earn back trust, is that not long enough for you?

Oh you of such simple faith.
You expect to see things so clearly. Dancing cherubs with harps and wings, or vicious demons with the horns of goats.
No, you will not be given such simplicity.
Our world shall be plunged into shadows. Darkness and Light will fade as everything turns into Grey. Those who seek righteousness and valor will find their hands covered in the blood of their allies.
Those who seek to be vile will find themselves inadvertently rescuing the weak.
You want things to be simple, you want things to be clear - as they were in EverQuest.

I'm here to tell you right now that Bertoxxulous, Innoruuk, Tunare, Cazic-Thule, Rodcet Nife...all of them were weak. They lacked depth, they lacked conviction, they lacked true power. Were they to face the Godslayers, they would cower in fear, or be slaughtered like cattle.
How can I say this?
For OUR Gods, the Pantheon who survived, faced this calamity. They came face to face with the end of Immortality, met it head on, and survived through that age.
They are with us today because they found TRUE power.
You are faced with strength, and success, and yet you yearn for weakness, you yearn for failure.
Quite frankly, that disgusts me, and it should disgust you too.

No. They are dead. They are dead because they deserved to die.



Look. Look at what we mortals are willing to do. For glory. For fame. For loot.

Let your old world die, and rot in the festering world that it has always been. A new Norrath has opened up through the gateways of the Nexus, connected to the twining threads of the Ethernere.

You fear it because it is strange.
You loathe it because it is foreign.
Yet it will stand, and your cries will be like the tears of Tunare as she fell - forgotten, corrupted, and meaningless.

It's worth reiterating: the evil gods exist, they just aren't part of the pantheons most people in EQN worship.

Bertoxx and Cazic have already been mentioned as existing in EQN's lore, and I'm sure at least some of the others will pop up in due time.

See, Malokar gets it...

Why would Cazic Thule, Terris Thule or Sarymn need to be Seraphs? Perhaps they are members of a different pantheon. We only have a partial list of the various pantheons and gods of EQNext myth.

Luclin, Drinal and Taylin are all likely to have Shadow and Affliction as part of their portfolios. Some factions are likely to view them as evil, while others are likely to view them as good. As long as their followers devote themselves to Shadow, night, death, destruction and brigandry - those goddess probably won't care much about the distinctions of good and evil.

Primary attribute in EQ was valor. Do we know that's true in EQNext? Can't a Shadow Knight (or evil person) also have courage in the face of danger - especially in battle?

Why couldn't there be Paladins and Shadow Knights devoted to the Four?

Because in EQNext, good and evil are mostly subjective. A matter of perspective.

The factions the Paladin and Shadow Knight are devoted to should be diametrically opposed.
But, they could be serving the exact same god. Paladin could be the right hand of Mithaniel and Shadow Knight the left hand of Mithaniel.

Tunare's blood mixed with chaos magic. Yes.
Sometimes bad things happen to good entities. It's a good thing that people care enough to feel upset.
Koada'dal aren't all good or all evil. Probably learned some life lessons and mellowed after being enslaved by the Shissar beside the rest of the Combine.

"This is not your father's Norrath."

Soon™

In my opinion this is rather shallow, if not childish, idea of what evil is.

Maybe "causing pain for causing pain" is enough motivation for primitive (read mentally disordered or brainless) creatures, but sofisticated evil can be much more devious and dangerous.

Compare an evil wolf who eats lost children in a deep forest to satisfy his hunger.
And a profiteer who keeps children warm and fed in a brothel disguised as an orphanage.
His only goal is to make some money and he can even see himself as a benefactor to the poor children.

And this evil, truly evil, profiteer can worship Erollisi, the seraph of Love, for example.

I think it's not the gods, but the deeds and, to even greater degree, intentions is what makes people good or evil.

You are too honest.
I don't know if people are truly ready to see the real face of evil.
It's a bit more terrifying than most are ready for - because real evil looks just like we do.

You simpleminded fool.... have the Seraphs blinded you? The is no Good or Evil. There is only power. Any true dragon in spirit would know this.

With Power, one can forge a nation, or doom it.
With Power, one can drown the world in darkness, or sear the world with light.
With Power, one can be a city's salvation, or it's destruction.
With Power, one can decide the meaning of Justice.

With Power... Good and Evil become irrelevant.

It is Power, not Good and Evil, that will shape the future of Norrath.

If that belief makes me evil in your eyes, than feel free to strike me down. But if you do, you'll have proven yourself more powerful than I.... and what does that prove?

(Seriously, the idea that Right and Wrong can somehow be made clear and quantifiable is a gaming trope that needs to die. Morality isn't so simple in real life, why do they have to be so in games?)