My mythical is a 9s delay. damage for it is exponential compared to dw blades. Also forgot to mention haste factors. My haste lowers my delay to undeer 4sec. So I do fairyly well since sins get theirs to about 2sec and not near the damage i do with my myth
Dolgan wrote: Nono, that is not so: Dual wielding e.g. Fang and Lifespike would net you a combined rating of 170 (121/1.33+105/1.33). Add the effect of the 20% lower damage modifier on bows to that and it shuold be farly clear that the bow autoattack is in no way exponetially better than DW. And crits won't help you. Haste does the same for all weapons so no help there either.
Krakelkrak wrote: And auto attack aside, fang and brig etc myth have a +30% damage mod to all back stabs. Please correct me if i'm wrong but the ranger myth mods damage +20%at 5m? (all attacks) OR under 5 m only?? which today only works for auto attack. every 4.5 seconds with 100% haste. P.S. I do love the myth but imagine your role in an instance or raid without.. dependent? it's like a drug that bow. It would be cool if the bow changed colour to confirm the range ?1?!?!?1 and respective damage mod...
Personally - my ranger is in the scrap heap right now because of agro problems. I find myself pulling agro on auto attacks alone, and it gets frusterating when your sitting around nakid when the tank cant hold agro, however this is a seperate issue all together and thankfully is getting fixed. There are afew things people are forgetting, is AE auto attack mechanics with Double attack. I have done some testing with my guildies swash, and found that you can double attack an AE attack, as well as getting the proc bonus's for AE attacks. So this means, if you have a 50% chance to hit 4 mobs, you will hit those mobs 8 times with procs. I also came to find with our assassin this also stacks with frenzy, so its possible to AE mobs 12 times in a single hit. My next biggest issue with the ranger class currently is not being able to use surrounding attacks in our sta line while assassins are able to make full use of it. Next is itemization, for the most part whatever melee crit or melee DA a melee would have is double that of a ranger. Afew examples are the trooper scale boots, mystic epic, the helm in PR. Itemization is fine when you get through VP and get set pieces, however not everyone can get through VP or wants to leave there guild and join one that does VP. And I will troll anyone who says "Well just join a raiding guild" - thats not for everyone. The next issue is "pre myth bows". When duel wielding your weapons become 30% slower, also keep in mind that melee DR is 100 DR in most cases. There are a significant amount of legendary/fabled weapons out there that are easilly achievable in a casual enviroment. Now .33-100=66(DR for a single weapon when DW'd) times that by 2 = 132. Our fabled epic has a DR of 122, meaning all melee will outdamage a ranger at this point. The last thing is simply agro - most tanks dont like trying to hold that 8-14K initial hit + a CA, and dont like running around for the mob simply because of the way things are. My guilds MT does not group with rangers for that reason, and I can name afew other tanks who say the same thing. I am not trying to sell a "doom and gloom" in my post, I am simply pointing out afew issues there are with the class. And why some people do not like grouping with rangers. Rangers are one of the hardest classes to gear up, but it can be done. And our myth is what gives that "umph" to keep up with various other dps classes. I am personally of the opinion that our class needs our myth to be balanced with everyone else. It is just that where you are in the game depends on where you are in the grand scheme of things.
While I do not have "end game gear (Avatar)" yet, I do have my mythical. It is painfully clear that many people need to read and comprehend posts by other veteran rangers. The reason is to prevent bad posts like this. The clear and simple fact is STUDY and APPLY, through trial and error, tried and true techniques. In my small raiding guild, in a mostly mage set up group, I manage to crank out 9-11k parses easy. As previously stated by noted veterans like Ranja, TIMING is the most critical thing a ranger can do ( Epic weapon and above). Do Not ever miss or delay a ranged autoattack EVER. Taking that first followed by the right AA setup, CA cast order, Gear choice and Group makeup a Ranger is one of the best and difficult T1 dps classes to maintain and play. Know your class prior to smearing them all over our boards. If you care getting smoked by T2 dps then the fault is definately with you. Go back to the drawing board. Dont forget the ingame advise giver Everfrost.Safanah
Siphar wrote: Still wrong. Longer delays actually improve the efficiency of crits. Typically +4 ranged crit is much more efficient than +4 melee crit because of the long delay of bows.
Mortred@Befallen wrote: it's 100/1.33=75. Times 2 that's 150. (2 second dly, 200 damage -> 200/2=100 damage rating.) (2.66 second dly 200 damage -> 200/2.66 = 75) I want a better bow.
Siphar wrote: Yes but imagine them without it too. It seems that you are saying we suck and try being good without a mythical against mythicaled sin and swash. Most of us have. I don't know of any guild that cleared VP on the first try. Sin and Swash mobs are early in VP. Last peeps to get the dang mythis were rangers. Also saying crits won't help is like saying an dual leg amputee just kicked you. Crits count in damage. I agree with safana and ranja. I was doing crap for dps and now since talking to them have increased my dps and am doing better. Better gear and I will be doing better. Fine tuning mechanics and I wil be doing better. notice I said I. As stated above, if you aren't topping the parse then rethink the way you are doing things. Hard Core high eschelon rangers are not saying that we suck. Why is that? do they have a hack or do they understand the game better?
Dolgan wrote: Are you replying to me or siphar? And to what are you replying to there? the quote attributed to me above is not mine. I made a comment about crits in relation to autoattack earlier in the thread which you seem to reply to. I meant that even when factoring in crits, DW is better for autoattack than bows. Quick shot might get us on par with the best dual wielders for autoattack damage. Don't believe me? Then check some parses from e.g. safana on flames and compare with top swashies, assassins, brigs. For the record, nowhere have I said that rangers do bad dps.
You are correct K, I was refering to Siphar. Sorry for the confusion. Was trying to Quote and it screwed it all up.
heh wrote: OK then I will respond. The biggest problem is that they made rangers able to do T1 DPS by standing at a distance. This in itself is hard to balance. You can see how they are trying to solve this problem by making us stand closer. Our mythical has a proximity bonus, our melee CAs are constantly upgraded etc.
Also I'll reply since I was quoted and all. Also this being one of my favorite misunderstandings to clarify. And since your new I'll clarify do not come into this game with any preconcieved notions of what you think a ranger should be. EQ2 has its own definition and the less you fight against that the more enjoyable the class is. And beleive me I love the ranger archetype and have played it in every game I can. I just see WAY to many people that think rangers are Archers and that the RANGE in RANGEr means distance. rang·er (rnjr) n. 1. A wanderer; a rover. 2. A member of an armed troop employed in patrolling a specific region. 3. Ranger A member of a group of U.S. soldiers specially trained for making raids either on foot, in ground vehicles, or by airlift. 4. a. A warden employed to maintain and protect a natural area, such as a forest or park. b. Chiefly British The keeper of a royal forest or park. range (rnj) n. 6. An extensive area of open land on which livestock wander and graze. 7. The geographic region in which a plant or animal normally lives or grows. 8. The act of wandering or roaming over a large area. What I highlighted in Red and the definitions I copied of Range are the ones that apply to the Fantasy Ranger Archetype which I think EQ2 does a good job of approximating.
if most of you actually played the game from near the beginning you can see where SOE were going when they made the ranger. most of our combat arts are to used with a bow (big clue that) we have a spell to make our own arrows (big clue that) we use a bow (big clue that) and at one point had to be at a certain range (big clue that) to use it. Just cos they bought a bow that you can fire at point blank range doesnt change the whole class name. Yet again who cares if a ranger is portrade as a wanderer, rover, tree hugger or a US soldier. Go look at the defination everquest2 uses and how the everquest 2 ranger is as you are playing EVERQUEST 2 and if you still cant figure out the ranger then maybe its time to move on to a different game that has every aspect of a fictional character you want but maybe not a bow!
hieronymus wrote: Actually I'm amazingly happy with the EQ2 Ranger. I think that was my point. Alot of folks seem to think that EQ2 rangers should be bow wielders only and your points certainly back up that point. I would point out though that the Very first Combat arts and abilities that we start with the Only thing you start off with at the beginning of the game are Tracking, Stealth, and a Melee attack Searing Strike. Also last I checked we were the only class who's starter gear included three weapons two daggers and a bow. Those are two pretty good indications that we aren't supposed to be exclusively Archers. Beyond Aeralik coming right out and saying our fighting style is supposed to be a mixture of ranged and melee. As for the anyone that has played the game from near the beginning check my eq2 players My character Kurrash on AB was created right after that server came up for the first time and I played in beta before that though I have no way to prove the beta. In those days you weren't even a Ranger until level 20. Scouts got no ranged CA's and a Predator didn't get any until level 16. You didn't even have more ranged than Melee CA's until the late 30's. Back before Master II's one of our signature trainings was a version of stealth that let you move at full movement speed while stealthed. (nothing to do with combat). It wasn't until crits became widespread in EoF that Rangers started macro'ing out their melee autoattacks and that we started using our Melee slots exclusively to enhance our ranged damage. And then in ROK we had our ranged autoattack lowered and our Melee CA's significantly increased in power. My point is there are tons of classical examples of the Archetype in Fiction that never use bows. That Classically what defines a ranger is a warrior that is stealthy, cunning, at home in nature, and willing to defend those that can't defend themselves. Fighting with Bows plays into that but its not exlusive as there are a myriad of different fighting styles used in fiction. My point is that anyone who want to play an Archer, or a fighter that exclusively uses bows on the battle field and always fights from the back ranks of a battle will not be happy with the EQ2 Rangers. Rangers are far more than just Archers.
Boramyr wrote: Maybe in group/raid settings, but solo? My lvl69 (as of last night) ranger alt is soloing the faction quests in KP right now. In most cases I'm taking down yellow con solo mobs (non-heroic) using only the bow. I love that... especially because when I did those quests with my Templar, it took FOREVER to kill one silly even-con solo mob. The other nice part of that is I don't have downtime for healing, and I can cycle RCA's so that I'm not waiting on reuse timers much. So, once again... play style makes a diference in the class you play.
Jailor Ca'iluer: (00:32) 591014 | 18469.19 [Rhodan-Sniper Arrow-37347] Rhodan 273336 | 8541.75 : Ranger <<< This is why people take me as a ranger =) No mythical or VP/TSO raid gear, mostly tso isntance / shard / quest gear, masters (of course,) 2 neat items in Hate, and 174 aas. DPS is why people take rangers. (Btw my highest parse soo far ) --- 181052 | 5657.88: Swash --- 73337 | 2291.78: Guard --- 28953 | 904.78: Dirge --- 17375 | 542.97: Warden --- 16961 | 530.03: Temp
Rhodan@Nagafen wrote: The problem is that for everyone like you that can do very good dps there are one or more rangers that not only can't beat the swash they would be below the guard. Which is why PUGs are such a crap shoot. If the person forming the group sees you on and a random assassin he is going to pick you, however if he sees an assassin he knows that can pull 6K and a random ranger he does not, he is going to pick the assassin. People know who is more likely to provide the dps they need, they are going to choose them first.
