Why level-agnostic dungeons are going to fail...

I think level agnostic dungeons should give the player ZERO experience.

Yep. I said it. Zero experience.

What they should do is reward the player with one token that they can exchange for one piece of very good gear.

This way, players would continue to use these dungeons at each tier along the way.

It's time to stop the race to max level.

If that was the case, I would definitely still run them. I never understood why you would want to race so fast to max level, just to grind the same crap over and over. I would rather grind 1-95 over and over with quests and some dungeons and take a long time doing different stuff over and over, rather than do a few dungeons over and over till max level just to do more dungeons over and over

Everyone is different though, I understand that. Just those people complaining about not enough xp and it will die, well, I can't say that is true. I know a lot of folks, a ton in my guild as well, that absolutely love the dungeons and have never said anything about the xp being bad, they are just very fun to run and get upgrades. But, I don't know any player that is interested in being PLed, so I could just be hanging out with the wrong crowd

Actually if you could convert that token into a huge chunk of extra XP or nice level-appropriate gear, it would be an interesting decision and make it appealing to both people impatient for max level and newbies without main-funding / people taking a more smell-the-flowers approach.

One group doesn't need the gear, the other is less worried about the XP. Everyone gets an incentive to participate.

Adding the ability for 90+ to get in the queue would be a pretty big step. The key is going to be keeping the rewards at a high enough return value to keep people coming back.

If that return is lower than current expansion content the queue will take a hit. They also need to consider how boring it is going to be if they also don't regularly increase the amount of dungeons available.

The cross server ability in 2015 will be another big boost.

If they do it right, the dungeon finder and the level agnostic dungeons can be huge.

I also like the idea of being able to choose gear or exp (or status? or extra AA?). Kind of reminds me of the AA reward thing from the public quests in Great Divide.

I wonder if they have the ability to do "Dungeon Finder" weekends, where you get extra currency or Exp from completing instances with the dungeon finder.

My biggest issue with these dungeons, is that I can't zone in with my 95 toons. What use is it if I want to help out a friend at lower levels, if I have no alts below 95?

I get that they dont want it used for Power Levelling, but honestly these wouldn't be used for that when there are better alternatives.

If the agnostic dungeons gave ZERO experience, I wouldn't run them at all. I think, instead, that they shouldn't give loot, because they're generally even more stupidly easy than normal.

But as it stands, since I don't do power-leveling & even find the concept distasteful, for my purposes the agnostic dungeons give pretty decent XP.

I'll grant you it's pretty random but, well, while my primary drops were less than ideal (way too duplicative, and I got 2 1handers but no shield, for instance), I also had 3 masters in my boxes. Which means they were for my class. Now, true, 2 I had already researched and the third is 4 levels out - but that's actually great with the addition of the grandmasters! And this was in a single dungeon run.

For all those complaining about not being able to run them post 90 have you bothered to even check out the videos or transcripts from SoE Live or even any of the multitude of other threads about these dungeons before they released?

They said when they announced them that the reason that they stopped at 89 was that there was an huge spike in player power levels at 90 that continued all the way through 95. Getting the system to balance that huge spike was proving very difficult to do and they decided they wanted this feature in sooner rather than later since it's also part of the cross server dungeon finder that's coming next year. They have said any number of times that they're continuing to work on balancing that spike and they plan on adding level 90 - 100 at some point in the future.

They also said when they announced it that they started with 10 dungeons, the first 5 are available at launch and the next 5 will be released as they are finished tweaking them. They can't just take the original version of these dungeons since some of the mechanics in those original versions, such as curses, would be able to be countered by lower level players that don't have the needed skills yet. This means they basically have to hand tweak each one so they take time and right now many of the folks that do this tweaking are also busy tweaking the dungeons in the expansion. Personally, I figure we'll have these first 5 until around the end of the year and then we'll get a couple of more with more trickling out every few months.

And all of you complaining that they aren't as fast for powerleveling as the DM dungeons, just be thankful I'm not in Holly's job. If I was the producer/lead designer I'd have shut of XP in DM's a long time ago. They were originally intended to allow players to sort of tell their own story and then people found out they could get amazing experience by exploiting them. I'm sure if I did that it would all but kill the DM's but there would still be a core of people that would play with building and running them just for the ability to tell their story, just as there are a core of people that spend hours of their game time decorating houses.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against people powerleveling if that's what they want to do I just hate the fact that it's all but impossible to find anything in DM that isn't focused on that. There used to be some really interesting dungeons out there but now it's all stacks of mobs in every corner. Why not just buy a level 85 (or 95 or 100) toon and be done with it.

On to the dungeons themselves. I've run 4 of the 5 since it went live. 2 with my level 27 warlock who made 32 in those 2 runs and got 10 gear drops at least 4 of which were duplicates but the rest were useful. 1 with my level 50 pally and he got 4 gear upgrades in there but then he had level 42 gear to start with so just about anything would be an upgrade for him. He was mostly on full AA and got 4 or 5 AA during that one run. The last was with my level 87 defiler, he got 2 gear upgrades but then had the same dagger (which wasn't an upgrade) 3 times. The defiler also made a full level and at least 3 AA's with the slider set at 50%.

Overall I think the XP was really good for something that was as challenging as these dungeons were. I will agree that they need to do something to expand the loot tables though and the RNG really needs work, 3 of the same dagger in one run is a bit silly.

Now the interesting part to me is just how challenging these are at all levels. As my warlock I was the lowest level in the group and I was having to really figure out how my spells worked and how to control my aggro while maximizing DPS. In one of the runs we were grouped with a level 80+ tank and he thought he'd be able to just plow through the dungeon like he always did when mentored down. That lasted until he pulled the first room and he died almost instantly. Then he realized he was going to have to actually play the guardian the way they should be played and you know, taunt, control positioning and manage pulls. I've found that no matter what level my character is or how high or low it is compared to the others in the group I end up having to actually learn to play the character. That to me is worth more than any amount of XP or loot.

If all you are after is a powerlevel & speed XP to level cap, then obviously the level agnostic dungeons are not aimed at you. These are aimed at people who actually want to experience real grouping as they are leveling up and hopefully get some upgrades out of it. Level agnostic dungeons make it easier for those people to get together.

I ran one of these yesterday and the xp gain was a lot higher than I expected. I gained around 50% of a level and a few AAs at level 88, and to me that's nuts from a single instance. You cannot compare an opportunity to actually play the game with your alts, (or for new players to actually play the game) with power leveling. Power Leveling is a whole different animal and is not "playing the game".

OP- despite your statements that you would prefer to play the game with alts, by your statements regarding power leveling, it appears that you believe that the game doesn't start until cap. People only power level if they believe this to be the case, or perhaps if they have been asked to play a different class for their raidforce. Most people that this type of dungeon was designed for don't powerlevel and have no interest in doing so.

You aren't going to "force" people into grouping. There are reasons many of us prefer not to group except with those we are close to. Trying to "entice" people into grouping by bribes isn't going to work because it isn't going to fix the mechanism that turns us off, that being the arrogance and attitude of too many in the game. SOE cannot fix personality traits. If you are having a problem getting groups, you may want to look more internally and not blame SOE.

Emphasis mine...

I keep seeing people complaining about this "waste of resources" and I have to imagine that, for them, any dev time not spent building more heroic/raid content for level 95+ is considered a waste.

If that's the case then I think that it's a complete waste of resources for any dev time to be spent working on raid content. I don't raid, none of my friends raid so why should time putting in content I'll never use.

While we're at it they should stop wasting time on those silly tradeskills. I don't really get much out of them so those resources could be put to better use building content that I want. Lets also stop wasting time on all that useless house decorating stuff and those silly monthly festivals and get rid of most of the holiday stuff to, except Frostfell, I get great gear from that one so it can stay.

I think we should move the devs from all these other things and put them to work building more of these agnostic dungeons and they should devote the time they'd spend tuning raid content to figuring out a way to allow people over level 90 to join in. That would be a better use of resources in my opinion.

By the way, for the humor impaired, the above was an example of sarcasm.

For an example of irony you might want to check out this post where Sizzla claims to be loving the new dungeons.

I tend to agree with you and it's one of the reasons I'm actually enjoying these dungeons and can't wait to see more of this sort of thing.

There is nothing about them that "forces" you to go out and play these. Sure they're better experience that you might get soloing some of the other dungeons at your level but they're not insanely better. Yes you can get level appropriate gear no matter what your level so that will give mid - upper level players an incentive to run these with lower levels. The gear isn't that much better than you can get other ways though so if you're one that doesn't like to group you're not being gimped by not doing them.

It's a choice and choice in how you play is a good thing.

I normally hate the thought of running PUG's so I haven't really been doing a lot with the heroics in ToV. This is mainly because I felt I was undergeared and I wasn't completely confident in my ability to play certain classes to the level that many of those grinding these instances seem to expect. As you said, I don't want to put up with the attitude.

I've run 4 of the 5 instances so far with my wife and our mercs. On 3 of those runs we had another person join in. On one of them we wiped several times while figuring out what we were doing with lower level characters that none of us had played a lot. The amazing thing was that there was no whining and pointing fingers just a lets get back and figure this thing out attitude.

I'm sure that attitude is actually more common even in the ToV groups but it only takes 1 or 2 bad experiences to put you off the whole concept.

I think the level agnostic dungeons might struggle in the future because there is TOO MUCH experience, not too little. I might have to switch over all my XP to AA to I don't blow through it all too quickly.

Sizzla, I wish you would realize that there is a very large playerbase that actually enjoys playing content and experiencing challenges. I've been playing my SK for years and he's only in his mid 70's. Could I have PL'd him to 95 by now? Definitely, but there's a lot of game you're skipping over. I've been playing this game since beta and there's still new quests and areas worth discovering assuming you wander off the "golden path" or the insatiable draw to get to 95.

As an aside, leveling too quickly and especially powerleveling makes really bad players! I powerleveled my Monk to 95 very quickly, and whenever I get a group at that level I'm always terrible.

This is almost exactly how I feel. ToV groups often in my experience put way too much pressure on people who have not been running them every day for the last 10 months. Too many people are to the point of wanting to run them in 30 minutes or less. Too much attitude of "oh you are not in fully gemmed arcane/potent so we don't want you in our group". Too many people posting parses after every fight.

But these agnostics have been a complete opposite of that. There is no gear standard checklist you are put up against and found wanting. There is no expectation that you know every zone and every fight perfectly. I have yet to see someone post a parse to show how good they are or how bad someone else is. People sometime even say 'hello' and chat a little as the group is forming up.
With the odd composition of some groups you end up with there is a good bit of coming up with an unusual way to beat an encounter. Heck I have even tanked Vastly Deep on a coercer a couple of times. Ending up doing fine.

These are a great way to learn how to play with others and be exposed to what other classes can do before getting tossed into the grinder of ToV heroics.

Seen 'em. Addressed them. Will do it again for your benefit.

Loot-wise, the power level inflation starts prior to 90, at 85 with the start of Velious stuff, so that reason is out. For mercs, the real increase in power happens at 91, not 90, so that aspect is mostly out except for one bit: the hp jump, which is related to the player hp jump at 90. And that's pretty much the only real jump in player power at that level, coming heavily from a single buff the player has. Counteract Bolstered Health somehow and the level 90 player could be included.

And they should be, because people routinely get stuck at 90 for a while. It's that 280 AA wall that makes 90 a far more logical stopping point than 89, especially given that non-subscribers cannot adjust their AA settings.

Person. Singular. There is no "all of you". There's been one person complaining, and he's pretty much given up that argument already.

That said, I agree with you here. If I was in charge, I'd look into trimming back some of the rather obscene PL xp that is possible as well.

I will have to disagree with this.
If you want ZERO experience then turn your personal experience off when running them. Please don't try to control where other players wish to gain experience.
The gear these reward is more than sufficient for the content at the particular level range they are designed for.
Not all players wish to quest again in Kurnark for the umpteenth time or solo grind the same mobs over and over just to gain experience.
No one is forcing anyone to 'race' anywhere.
Personally I am in no rush to level, but I do enjoy feeling like I am making progress.
You token idea could actually provide less incentive to run them. Just run enough to buy weapons a couple of jeweler and a few armor spots and charge up to the next tier. No real need for a full set of anything in sub 90 content.

Let me break it down for the comprehension impaired.

First, read the thread title.

I enjoy grouping sub-90. I want to do more of it. That's why you'll see me posting in the other thread saying how much I enjoy doing the zones. I'm not looking for powerleveling (quite the opposite). I can do that already without any issues.
It's a matter of giving the masses incentive to group on their alts.

I don't want powelevel caliber xp in these zones, or any zones, but it still has to be competitive or the majority of players will continue to take the path of least resistance.

The overwhelming majority will stop doing level-agnostic dungeons, because there is no incentive.
They'll stop for the same reason that you couldn't find anyone to do DM for 2 years.
They'll stop for the same reason a /who in any sub-90 dungeon yields one guy with a merc, or one 95 with an autofollower.
They'll stop for the same reason that you never see LFG spam for anything below 90.
They'll stop because the alternatives to real grouping are faster, easier, and less frustrating.

And yes, it is a complete waste of development time if people stop using the feature.

Actually the power spike pre-90 is really only gear related which is easy enough to balance out. Ding a character from 89 to 90 and a DM that you could pull all of the first couple of rooms in at 89 now wipes you if you pull even the first room. It's not just our gear that spikes it's the stats they give level 90 mobs that spikes and it's a huge leap. It only gets worse as you get up to 95. It's almost like level 1 - 89 is on some sort of linear scale and at 90 it jumps to a logarithmic scale.

From what I've heard watching the dev panels and since from devs and others around the boards it's not something that they don't feel that they can accomplish it's just going to take them a lot longer to do so and they wanted these in sooner rather than later. Which I agree with. Do I wish they could have gotten them working across all levels? Sure but I'll take what we've got now and hope they can do as good a job bringing the upper levels into it as they've done so far.

I will agree that they need to keep moving forward and show some sort of progress though since otherwise people will get bored and go back to the same old stuff or wander off to see what new games are out. Maybe if they can't get the balance issues worked out reasonably quickly even adding in versions of these tuned for level 90+ to group together would be a good idea. At least it would be something different that grinding 5 levels in Skyshrine then jumping into the Quest, AS, Heroic gear grind in ToV. Options are always good.

Well, I for one, hope you're wrong. I am enjoying the experience tremendously so far! Some of us want to level and actively play at the same time and not be passive. If I have any concerns at all, is that the exp is too good. Questing is what really gives this game it's depth/flavor and it's getting closer and closer to being obsolete.