My main is a 70 Defiler, and the majority of my raid experience is in the Laboratory of Lord Vyemm. My guild has 2 warlocks, and one of them is consistently the number 1 DPS. Our second warlock is usually in the top 5. I personally love warlocks because I debuff wisdom and poison/disease to a great degree, so it matches well with my strengths.
Ruut Li I am a raiding warlock and I see every nite at raid what your saying. If our Swashy decides to pick his nose during a fight I might out parse him (remember we are talking a Tier 2 dps) and I beat out one of Necro's only because the other Necro got life burn off and one didnt. Nothing sucks worse than leading a parse on a group mob (supposedly our speciality) and a tier 2 dps burns the last one standing and doubles your parse. "How about playing with melee who know what they are doing and are put in the right set-up? Would you dare?" I get the grim reminder every nite Ruut Li lol
I 100% aggree with this statement. When doing an group encounter if you parse the first half of it, NOTHING beats a warlock. Then when mobs start dropping like flies, so does our DPS as we have to poke and pick at the singles left over. Its a game design problem. If in fact the tank could hold aggro, no one would play anything but a warlock for DPS. Think of this group, it almost sounds bot like - Tank ONLY taunting, Healer ONLY healing the tank, 4 warlocks - BOOM all mobs drop like flies. Problem is, no single tank can hold aggro against a warlock. Usually you need a tank with EXCELLENT hate transfer and at least 1 other hate transfer or reduction person. As for parsing. I seldom if EVER take the top single shot, but I am never NOT in the top 5 on a group mob encounter (unless I am AFK) and usually in the top 5 for a single encounter. Last night was a good example. First half of every encounter in Labs I was ripping them apart until they were singles, then the assassins stole top place by a few points. Most group encounters I was no lower then 3rd in the list. Did I ever have the largest hit, NO, but most then 50% of the time I was number 1 in the DPS list. In many cases the other mobs in the encounter were over 50% down before the 1st one dropped simply because of warlock damage. Again its a matter of how you look at it. No I don't have the 15k hit of the assassin. No I don't have the 25k hit of the wizard (actually it was 26k something, but still). BUT on any given group encounter I had no problem hitting them with Tier 1 DPS and thanks to a VERY good setup of the raid, the only time I got aggro was if the others in my group went down (meaning my deaggro buffs were gone). But again I have to point out, how many other classes can drop a group of 4 even con heroics alone with no heals? Not many if ANY. It's all about playing the toon properly which takes a good player and alot of playing to perfect.
I love my lock and as a raider I personally know my roll and do well at it. I have my line of debuffs, my concussive type spells, dots and nukes.. i always start debuffs at 2% of raid targets health, then let the dps loose starting with the dots and I cycle them like crazy along with my Void line.. rotating my concussive blasts etc..to help my aggro.. while the dots take effect at about 70 to 75% i throw in 1 apocalypse (IMHO that spell is aggro on a stick for me, i cast late to save my [I cannot control my vocabulary] from aggro pull) .. by the time all is dead I have rocked the cashbox (sorry dumb comercial in my head). While i wont parse higher than the necros who have died from Aggro or Lifeburn, I am usually in the top 5 dps and Ill tell ya one thing, I dont EVER get aggro unless im trying to show off lol. I know my dps is limited.. I have debuffed, brought down that mobs health, transfered some aggro to the MT, stayed alive. My job is done. When we get some grouped raid mobs and watch me and my dps fly..In raids though those are rarer let alone when they arent mezzed, so its a mixed bag. But its my place to play that way, ive accepted it and im fine with it. Its all about the skill and how YOU have fun with it.
I give you rather simple answer in form of question ... Why the hell you want to play warlock then you can play necromancer? Before LU7 both wizards and warlock use to suck badly as classes... Between LU7 and LU13 warlocks been GODLY good - they were ultimate DPS and altimate solo class - everything that was not epic and not orange con were soloable (farmable) for warlock. Past LU13 warlocks were still ok for solo (on a right targets) but they started had a hard time keeping up with DPS with multiple classes (ranger, necro, conjur ... its just to some of them)... Past LU21 situaction became even worst - warlocks ENTIERLY lost ability to solo and YET DPS was not increased (to be entierly honest wizards after patch got their soloablily greatly improved)... Now lets see what we have after LU31.. Solo - warlock STILL not cable of soloing anything worth while to mentioned (nor for exp neither for loot). Reason? - god danm it very simple - gimped to extinction root, almost eradicated stuns and absence any worth while "heavy" attack. How SOE can fix that (if they ever bother to look on it) - well least can be done improve stability snare-fear effect on our root-brake. Look out of all attack that warlock using solo nukes are at best 25% - everything esle are one or another forms of DOTs. Root have 15% chance to break on hostile spell - which mean Apocal GARANTY will break root - toss here nerf of stun effect that use to be attached to that spell and you got a picture. But that not all ... post root break fear-snare effect have 30% (yes thirty [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing %) chance to break on damage - guess what? - that mean you almost never see that effect in work. Oh btw compare to what wizards got - 5% chance to break snare on termination IN CONJUCTION with knock back effect on Ice Nova... neat?. Bottom line - ye warlock can solo groups of no arrow mobs that are 2-3 level below with decent chance to succed but try anything with 1 arrow up and above within group and you get yourself into the trouble. Groups - warlock are ok Raid - as I said why play warlock then you play necro or zerker... I have observed many raid parse good warlock vs. good necro - well in best case scenario warlock can come out even ..... BEFORE necros got lifeburn (not anymore). ANY more or less selfrespecting necro capable sustein over duration any raid DPS 1600-1900 - easy. Pretty much same can do properly buffed zerker. As a warlock then keep on my toe and pushing really had I am staing at median around 1400 - getting troubadur (not always a case) can push me up to 1600-1750. Now if you bother compare utility that have necro and that warlock you mind should be completely clear why so few warlocks left and why every dog and its puppy playing nowdays necro
Warlocks can't solo? I solo fine. I have 2 roots i cycle, with apoc, war pyre, absolution line, re-root to keep it live, rinse repeat. if by chance that root breaks before i can reroot, thwart, then root.. done. i solo alot *shrug* Lately i have been soloing in Mistmoore Catacombs taking out the heroic werewolfs and any named within the first 2 levels.. i don't expect to be a necro or a nuker, or want to manage a pet, I dont want lifeburn that if im correct you can only use when grouped right? Because yeah you can zap solo down something, but you die too..i rely on my dots and skill. I like the class
Bud ... compare you solo ability (aka exp/time or loot/time) with ANY other good soloing class.. Instead of soloing Mistmoore Catacombs come and solo within Mistmoore Castle (like any selfrespecting solo classes do) or if you prefer Nizara comes to mind
Usually don't post on stuff like this but... wow... just wow... you consider mistmoore castle to be the norm for soloing and anyone who can't isn't self respecting?
Wow Ruut, that is so perfectly stated. That's exactly what happens on the monk and warden boards. My monk and warden are now a bruiser and fury :smileywink: Although my tag line says Wizard, the character is actually a fae warlock, who will become a wizard some day. Dont ask, it just worked out that way! But while Im still a warlock, I figured I would hang out with you guys! My experience has been this. XP Groups want to kill ^^^ single pulls whereever they can because group aggro by anyone but a guardian is too hard. This results in preferential treatments towards wizards. That hurts the warlock. The warlock has two group buffs, one of which is killer, the other is hohum. That hurts warlocks. Warlocks get no int buffs. I was amazed by this since I thought all dps mages got this buff. I was told that warlocks dont need int buffs because mage group int buffs dont stacks, and there were enough other mages out there with it that you would likely be grouped with to eliminate the need. That hurts the warlock, BAD. Where's the evac, feign, COTH, group invis or whatever the special utilty is that makes them cool in a raid? Honestly, I dont even know what it is. That hurts the warlock. I am eXtReMeLy selective about which classes I think should have FD. I believe the warlock should have FD, specifically because group aggro is so difficult. Considering that Im not remaining a warlock, even if they had FD, I think that says a lot about my altruism that they should have it. As a side note note, I dont agree that necro's outDPS warlocks. I have a necro (not my main but great gear and spell quality), and Im friends with a great wizard, and have another friend who is a very good warlock, though the warlock is not his main. Generally speaking, the warlock is not far behind the wizard on raids for overall dps (wizard is usually about 1800), and always ahead of my necro (necro is usually about at 1400). As I understand the designers intentions, that sounds about right for summoners vs sorcerers. Summoners get more goodies, so we have lesser overall DPS. Now again, this is raidwide, not individual encounters. Message Edited by Supple on 02-02-2007 12:30 PM
Where to start... Your necro at 1400 should be at 1900-2300, the one in my guild is. The ranger and I are always right up there with him, but with lifeburn and undead tide he is nearly impossible to catch. We don't have fancy toys like evac and coth, but we can invis on the run and have aoe root/daze/interrupt. A guardian is almost the worst tank for holding aggro on multiple encounters, only brawlers are worse. In a group you don't need an int buff to top the parse, and you don't need deaggro to survive. I tank more often than not in groups just to speed zones up. Raids are another story, but there you will have the int buffs and deaggro and so on. Evac is not cool in a raid. Ever. Feign Death is for cowards. CoTH is a great ability and there should be a group version of the spell, but we aren't summoners, we are sorcerers. If you have power at the end of a fight, you could be hitting harder. You are a glass cannon. Death is your friend. Check my KvD in my sig for proof. It's not a playstyle for everyone. Some just can't handle the power. Enjoy your wizard.
I knew I shouldnt have stated a DPS number. Folks can just never be friendly about it. 2300 huh? whatever. On one encounter? Sure. Ive seen 4300 on an encounter by both wizards and necros. But 2300 over a 4 hour raid, all compiled? pfft. Ive never seen our wizard get 2300 over an entire night, and he virtually has the best equipment that can be gotten. Heh, my Fury can get 200K DPS if I stack the encounter right. Ive been in 4 raiding guilds now, and Ive seen lots of parses involving great players. All compiled, I've never see the outrageous claims substantiated in the fury, wizard, monk, and now warlock forums. With the exception of the reign of the broken ranger, Ive never seen it skew like so many folks claim. Ive seen furies claiming 1400 dps, monks claiming 2000 dps, blah blah. I never see it. Folks take the result of once choice encounter and multiply it out over the whole night and end up with an outrageous raid dps claim. Im glad youre real happy with your warlock though. Im sure all the rest of the warlocks share your sentiment. Message Edited by Supple on 02-02-2007 03:59 PM
Seriously bud - if you necro can't sustein at least 1.9K over duration of raid on average - necro don't know how to play or/and don't have enouth AA to do it. Other problem in oder to brake mark 2K DPS all necro need is healer who paying attention on necro health.. Warlock to push over 1400 (or 1600 if we have bard) have to work his **** off to make it happend and I mean it. You HAVE to have [I cannot control my vocabulary] load procing gear, you HAVE to hit Netherous Realm and Corrupted gift as soon as they up same goes for FHS/Catalyst AA... There is no way in hell that equaly geared/skilled necro lose DPS ladder to warlock NO WAY. Other class that I see brake mark 3900 DPS are zerker - seen it multiple times in the Labs
[/p][p]Honestly, this shows there is a severe flaw in the balance of the game. NO other mage class should outdamage a wizard or warlock. Why? We don't get pets, we don't get utility, we don't get ANYTHING other then damage, especially warlocks who cant even EVAC and were by some kind designer BARELY given ports. [/p][p]Am I saying nerf the necro or conjuror, no, let thier pets nuke away happily. After all, there pet that gets that kind of damage IS based on the Wizard/Warlock line if they choose the mage pet and Ranger/Assassin if they choose a scout pet. Thus it should do that kind of damage. However, it should NOT do them as well as the real class (just like no tank pet should be able to out tank a real tank or our heal a real healer).[/p][p]The reality is that wizards and warlocks should be FAR above and beyond the damage of any other mage simply because thats all we have. Now, the fix for that is simple, either give us alot more utility (where is the wizards summoned ice or fire pet? or where is the warlocks summoned disease ball or whatever) OR to make warlocks and wizards simply do more damage then ANY other caster and/or thier pet combined.[/p][p] [/p][p]As for parses, it all depends on the encounter. A single ^^^ which is what the entire game is mis-designed around, sure I can push 1500 on it in a raid no problem, 2k if I have a paladin with amends and decent aggro holding. However, take an encounter that has lots of mobs in it (for example the beholders in Labs) and there is simply mage class that can generate that kind of damage, the heroics in Lyceumm for another example. Its not hard to easily push towards 4kdps on such encounters. [/p][p]I have stated all along that for warlocks it is a GAME DESIGN FLAW that there are so many single encounters in the game. replace half of the ^^^ with an encounter of 6 or more mobs and lets see anyone outparse a warlock consistently. Of course when they fix that flaw they will have to fix the taunts and aggro management problems they have NEVER addressed for group encounters.[/p][p] [/p][p]Its not about parses, its about balance and simply put, no matter WHAT class you play, you have to admit Sony has NEVER gotten that right. From the wizards that root nuke named by the dozen (damned plat farmers) to the coercers who are charming/mezzing epic mobs to the fact that utility is so unbalanced across classes it is simply STUPID. Sony doesn't have it right and at the rate they are going NEVER will.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
You said we had utility! /snicker Yeah if you count being bombarded with shard requests and the same buffs as every other mage class laff. Sorry bud, utility belongs to the enchanters. All summoners have is damage too, we just do it differently.
[p]Imo, a warlock that does under 1.8K dps on a single target and under 2.8K on 2+ targets is useless to any serious raid. Take freethinker - second named - single target, unless u get stunned a good warlock will produce 2K dps. Did 2.2K on it yesterday. Whats really situational about the warlock is how well your tank keeps agro. Another freethinker example - on the 2 encounters with 4 mobs x3 i did 4.1K dps the first encounter then took agro on the second and managed 3.4K without dying as tank didn't have enough things up to keep agro. [/p][p]Let's say your tank has great agro. We've compared a lot our dps with our conjurer and necro and they're both great players so we push each other hard, so on medium ae encounters i come on top 95% of the time, then normally our conjurer is second not too far behind for ex. i'll do 3.5K, he'll be around 2.8-3K, on single targets i manage close to 2.5-2.6K sometimes when i get lucky on crits and match well the focused casting + the dispatch and get precision of the maestro up at that moment.When necros use their lifeburn it's certain i get outdpsed, when they use lifeburn on like 1min trash mobs they put around 3K dps. [/p][p]Warlock is a great class, i love playing my warlock, much more than the wizard i used to be 8 months ago, but we definitely need to be in good conditions to make the best out of our class, like have a deagro or time compression in order to do good dps, let alone being all masters and great geared.[/p]
