Why are SKs so much more powerful than Warriors?

Bruener wrote:

I agree with ya. It has become this. What I don't like is everyone is now judged by "how much dps you can do". No matter what class is in question. I personally do not like it but that is how the game has grown.

Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:

I am sure you dont realy believ what you wrote here do you? SK is the boss. Guardians are a rock to be thrown to the wayward side. Guardians and zerkers are the pure tanks by character creation description and should by that description be balanced to show this. SK has been given easy button for way to long.

Shorcon wrote:

The post you are quoting was made 10 days before SF launched. The only statements I made were:
*1 tank, 23 support is meh.
*The OP's assessment that Crusaders are "so much more powerful than Warriors" and SOE is "continuing to let them grow stronger in the expansion" is false.
*I would like to hear why the OP feels they are growing stronger.
*Guardians are the rock, which is to say they received some substantial defensive benefits.
*SK's are not better at everything.
*Every Fighter class section in the beta was filled with cries that they were being shafted in the expansion, and members of some Fighter subclasses were trying to get as much "beef" as they could added even though they believed their class had all the tools it needed and more. Some admitted as much.
Now, two months into the expansion, yes, I stand by all of those statements.
EDIT: Actually, I take it back. I no longer really care why the OP felt they were growing stronger. So I wouldn't like to hear that. The poster hasn't posted in the thread since the OP, so it seems it was just a flame-bait thread anyway.

The OP hasn't posted anything at all on the forums since he made this thread. I know him in game, and if you read what he wrote you will see he was posting hoping for a response from a game dev. I highly doubt he gives 2 squirts what you guys have to say, or feels the need to reply.

Rahatmattata wrote:

He might want to consider explaining what the heck he's talking about next time instead of just making a vague statement. That's sort of like asking the developers to respond to "Hey, why is stuff broken?"
Except that it's even worse than that because the statement he's asking about most definitely false in their eyes, so there was never the slightest hint of a possibility that they could or would answer at all.

Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:

Please, you have no idea what the devs think of fighter balance. If anything, the devs probably realize shadowknight is the second highest played class in the game, right behind wizards (according to eq2players). And they probably realize there is a reason why there are a fk ton of shadowknights running around.

Rahatmattata wrote:

So the designers and developers of the game ... knowing that Crusaders substantially more powerful than Warriors in TSO, and that Guardians in particular were struggling in comparison ... intentionally INCREASED the gap between them as they designed the expansion.
That's your theory?
You really think that 10 days before launch the designers believed that they were increasing the gap between Crusaders and Warriors in the expansion?
I'm certainly not going to dissuade you if that's your belief. And you're right, I have no statement from a designer/developer that this is not the case; it really makes absolutely no sense though. That's all I'm saying. They wouldn't respond to a question about why they were doing something that they didn't believe they were doing. Much less someone who gives no indication that he even knows what changes were coming, and more specifically what was changing that would make the gap widen.
EDIT: Even if they DID believe Crusaders were uberest and they were making them even moreso ... they're going to answer that? "Given the popularity of the Shadowknight class, we decided to make them kick it even more. And hey, who doesn't love a strapping young Paladin? Warriors may still entertain themselves by purchasing Mushroom hats, which we've recently introduced to the Marketplace." WTH? It seems to me the OP isn't looking for a response at all, but rather venting frustration at what they perceive to be some unfair pending change(s) that they don't feel it's necessary to specify.

Rahatmattata wrote:

Pretty sure there were more SK's in T5/T6/T7/T7a/T8/T8b than there were warriors, whats your point again?
Wait what, Guards were the MT in T5/T6/T7/T7a/T8/T8b/T9? zomg how is that possible if they are so poorly balanced?
your statistics are meaningless, the only ones that matter to class balance is who is doing what role, and Guards have had the MT spot on lockdown since launch.
If they gave Guards the aoe capabilitys of Crusaders, what would be the point of Crusaders?
If they gave Guards the ability to heal like Crusaders, again what would be the point of Crusaders?
Understand this if you cannot grasp anything else, when you have 6 class's all being viable for 1 spot (heroic tank) or 3-4 spots (raid tanks) they are not going to be balanced, otherwise you have 1 tank class in game PERIOD.
Guards have MT spot on lock down, Zerks + Crusaders have OT spot on lock down, Brawlers? who cares what they are doing, they should have been removed from the tank section eons ago. then with 4 class's you have 4 spots to fill in raids and any of them can tank heroic crap with ease.

EasternKing wrote:

If guards have the MT spot on lockdown why are there so many crusaders MT'ing again?
Also your opinion on brawlers is laughable. What happened did you get out performed by a brawler and it hurt your little feelings?

EasternKing wrote:

If they gave crusaders the single target capability of Guards, what would be the point of Guards?
..... o yeah thats true they already have that.

Survivability is worthwhile until you have learned an encounter for raiding, after that bring the highest parsing AoE tank in raid and blow through the content.
How does that transalte for the heroic tank? ... Even worse, because most groups doing heroic content already have an idea or know how to complete heroic content.... What type of encounters make up most of the heroic content in SF? AoE of course, so why not bring the AoE tank that can easily lock down single target mobs in a group designed for casters or melee? Guards in heroic and even raiding situation cannot be tossed into random groups and expect to perform.
The only thing people can say about guards over any other tank is survivability, but read the guard boards on the red headed step child site and even here... why are so many jumping ship to SK... its not that hard to understand.

BChizzle wrote:

Crusaders MTing hardmode? or the stuff that can be tanked by rogues?
My opinions of brawlers have been the same since T5 when my first ever rolled char was one.
6 tanks is to many to balance, 4 is hard but doable,
And are you going to deny that brawlers have done nothing but cry since t6? i have raided with top raid guild WW since Eof time till now, so no i havent seen some brawler out perform me, nor one hurt my feelings, thanks for asking though.

Digg@Permafrost wrote:

LOL
ALL tanks to be viable have to be able to do the same basic job, which is hold single target hate, Guards can hold multi mob aggro just fine, do they get to sit and randomly spam aoes ? not till they are uber geared no, they get to change targets like a brawler does.
heroic ? who cares one crying bit about that content, it can be tanked by mages or scouts hell even healers can manage most of it.
I AM a Guardian T5>Now, i swapped to SK in TSO for 6months as we had a Guard and a Paladin, now we dont have a Guard again and my SK is sitting collecting dust, as i am playing mine.
Your Learned an encounter? try till you have farmed it for several months and the other tanks are over geared, ie they have all the loot from it.
Highest parsing AOE tank? for all them fights with adds right? wanna start listing me all them hardmodes with adds? (that cant be left hitting on scouts and mages till they are dead)
your post makes zero sense,
I can out parse brawlers and crusaders single target on my guard, they can (crusaders and zerks out parse me on aoe fights,) i am not seeing this huge imbalance that needs to be QQ over.

EasternKing wrote:

Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:

No, I think they closed the gap. I don't know what gave you the idea that I have a theory they widened the gap. I haven't even said much about the changes from TSO to SF that I can recall.

EasternKing wrote:

Ill just +1 what Digg said clearly your crusaders just aren't very good, and I've tanked every instanced hardmode mob in this game on a brawler so whats that really say about your crusaders? Its funny though you being such a great tank that your guild asked you to switch to a different tank as a brawler Ive never been asked by my guild to do the same maybe you shouldn't be bragging about your skills when your own guild makes you change classes.

Digg@Permafrost wrote:

So werent you posting yourself in this thread you can out dps Crusaders and brawlers single target, or am i wrong?
Guards can with raid gear, gasp the stuff we get from raiding that is perform well single target dps, i am in raid sitting capped crit/da/dps/haste 2.05 crit bonus mod and 55% to 65% potency from my own procs never mind the rest, if you cannot parse well with them kinda numbers, and i know you can do as i have seen you posts, suddenly means i play with crap crusaders nd brawlers? just lol at that.
And chain pulling works just as fast as pulling all at once so that is a circular argument as well. no mobs are close enough in any raid zone that you can pull more then 3-4 at a time, and if you cannot hold onto them 3-4 mobs as a guard, then you suck period.
So one minute you are telling other guards the very things i have said, and no i say them you join the whining crowd and tell me i am wrong, are you usually this confused?

BChizzle wrote:

My guild didnt ask me to do jack, i chose to, there is no need for multiples of any tank class in any raid force 1 of each type is more than sufficent. nice try on making this a wow you suck instead of refuting what i am saying with hard cold facts.
Grats on tanking hardmode man i am pleased for you really, that does not in any shape or form negate my statment.
If they had made brawlers into DPS class's in T6 we would have had 4 fighters to balance and not 6, and with only 4 needing to be balanced and not 6, we wouldnt have had 5+ years of brawler tears all over the forums either. or are you going to tell me i am wrong? and we havent had 5+ years of brawlers crying they should out tank everyone, out dps everyone and out utility everyone (everyone being the other 2 tank archtypes). that is what i recall being the case and the forums will support that as well.
there is no need for 6 fighter class's in eq2, they have never ever been able to manage to get them all to work correctly, nor have they managed to date to get them all balanced to the point the tears on the forums stop.

BChizzle wrote:

So your saying Brawlers need a nerf? Because we know they parse just as high if not higher than the other fighters and now they can tank any mob in the game....inc nerf bat. Or wait, maybe that is exactly the situation Crusaders are in too....oh and Warriors. Any fighter with the right gear and right support can tank any encounter in this game. Its just with Guards it is a lot lot less stress on their support.
Again, as I have never tried to hide I speak from a raid stand point. Like Eastern said a little ways up I don't care about the performance of tanks in heroic zones because yes any CLASS in this game could tank a zone. If some tweaks need to be made to make Guards better at that content than by all means go for it....but those tweaks better not have any affect at the raid level.
Lets see some ideas I had for Guards that would have gone a long ways.....Group Moderate, wow imagine that one getting implemented and making a huge difference with bouncing agro grouping with more than 1 dps. Threat crits made a big difference as well. Oh the good reinforcement suggestion I came up with where it could be changed to an AE threat reducer to the Guards group in addition to the positional increase for fighters. So yeah, maybe there could be some tweaks made to help Guards out in heroic content even more, not that it is hard to tank any heroic instance in this game.
But just like Beta what we don't need is calling for a nerf to a class due to heroic content when it could be very detrimental at the raid level and vice versa calling for massive buffs to a class because of heroic content that would completely unseat balance at the raid level.

Bruener wrote:

surprise surprise all is not wasted, someone gets it, the forums arent a total waste of time.
No tank class in EQ2 atm needs massive sweeping changes to it, to do its job in a heroic zone or in a raid zone.
People just want everything as always.

I would say that's not completly true. SK's are the topic here. And the topic (and I'll say what we all want to say) is that SK's with DM and other CA's are too powerful! Plain and simple, just as the topic title implies. No plate tank should be able to solo a T8 instance by themselves (yes I seen a guildy do it). The dps and tankabiliy arent supposed to go hand in hand. Mages wear garbage bags for a reason!