snowline wrote: Ah I see where you were coming from now. I know that enchanters share channeled focus but that is where we are supposed to get our raid wide power return from, hence the tag Other Group. This would be fine if the spell recast wasnt so stupid, but doesnt address the coercer mythy effect imbalance. Changing our manaflow to do the same kinda breaks the uniqueness that myths were supposed to have, thus I don't see them giving us group mana flow, although its the easiest solution. I have a feeling that 3 triggers per raid member on Mana Cloak would be considered overpowered especially as then chances are the enhancement would finally last the 30 secs duration and give 15% raidwide power reduction in that case. It would not be the base power return that would OP it, just the enhancement. However if they made it Other Group like channeled focus I could see that as a fair compromise that might make it in. The best option is still making manatap raidwide. Trouble is I don't think on its own that would be enough and I don't think they will change more than one option to give us a way to return power to a raid, because on a spell by spell basis that would make our power regen far superior to coercers. The only thing that breaks the balance is group mana flow, which only comes into play after lvl 80. Thus changing our spells would up to that point make the two classes unbalanced. The only other option I see then is to change someting in the 80+ lvl range into a raidwide mana effect and the best target imho for that change is Timewarp. Why? Because everybody hates timewarp and its current effect is marginal. Possibly change it into an effect that makes mana consumption go down because the other group is out of the normal timestream where magic happens. Something along the lines of your target group is pushed out of phase with normal time so that half the time the dont exist in the norrathian universe. The effect being a 20sec 50% mana reducer, 2min recast, tagged other group. Or alternatively you place a group of norrathians into a state of being that accelerates their metabolisms. The effect being 20 secs of 200% mana regen and heath regen, tagged Other Group, 2min recast. This effect would have to be able to go over normal regen caps, and effects any regens that are running on them, like sigil of heroism for paladin hate. Thus stacking bard mana songs and this effect would be beneficial for example. Something that keeps the idea of a timewarping effect but becomes useful. Thus the option I see are: 1. Change mana flow to be grp wide as its base, and give coercers a new effect for their myth. 2. Raidwide manatap. 3. Other Group Mana Cloak. 4. Change Timewarp to a mana regen effect. I'll continue to think about it
Well our myth effect to give rapidity groupwide was given to coercers via AA, so i don't see a big deal giving us manaflow groupwide also. I said change the AA in TSO line for manaflow where at the 5th rank makes it groupwide. That is the same as giving coercers groupwide velocity AA, which was unique to our myth. Now I also like the idea to make mana cloak castable on another group in the raid instead of giving Illusionists groupwide manaflow. The bottomline its kinda unfair when the nerf our Myth while giving Coercers groupwide manaflow and giving them groupwide velocity, which was on our myth. Manaflow is the stample enchanter ability, the first thing an enchanter gets via AA. I think our should be about the same.
end str line give us ranged auto attack a AA to allow gear procs to crit Make immune interupt buff be permanant Pet needs to be a real illusion of ourself keep our stats extract mana grpwide and more power regen on it random op ideas
An AA to allow gear procs to crit would probibly fix the dps gap we feel all by its self. And if that gap was closed we would probibly be less irratated over all the other faults. In the last 3 Xpacks my focus has been on my Illy. But with the changes in SF and now the nerfing of PR and Torrent procs, I have geard out 3 alts. Why because if this stuff swings into the negative even more I'm probibly gonna swap mains. The changes to Dbl attack and Arms are a step in the right direction as far as making our buffs wanted again. The changes to time warp need more work. As some has said in other posts 5s is horrable in a world of ungodly lag and stun stiffle fest that is the raiding world. Do us all a favor and make Time Warp group wide. Even if you dbl the recast time it would pay off way more. Pulling the immunity on it is just gonna leave out casters. It will become a wizzy/lock temp and push peeps like necro/conj who just got some love this xpack. The sheer amont of button mashing we do to keep dps up should pay off lol. After 3 years raiding on the illy my mouse finger can punch a hole in a cinderblock I dont mind that healers are doing 20K+ dont nerf them just bring us up to speed. Give us more than just the ability to poke somones eye out - LOL I just saw the Time Warp group wide thing on another post. And if thats were their going with it right on you guys There is some hope yet
Groupwide manaflow makes sense. Coercers get groupwide DPS buff and groupwide manaflow. Illusionists get groupwide haste but only single target manaflow. Would make up for the lacklustre power regeneration currently provided by an Illusionist.
Faeward@Nagafen wrote: Yes all we ask for is the same ability to keep the raid full with power like the coercer. For my group I just don't have power issues, but I would like to help the raid just as the coercer does. Just change the TSO Manaflow AA (since it is pretty much worthless now) to at the 5th rank make manaflow groupwide. Nice and easy fix.
Mana: It's fine, I don't care if the Coercer is better. DPS: This needs work and lots of it. The only way I could ever pull agro is by Time Warping a Miracle and even then not likely. Changes: Scrap all mezzes except for 1 group and 1 solo. The entire enchanter wisdom line with buffs to suggested changes in Illusory Allies, Split Personality and Construct of order. The entire Stamina line with a two-weapon fighting option. Change strength end line from prevents the next professional spell, to prevents the next AoE. Scrap the pet and the mythical pet concentration slot reduction. Change to grants 10% spell multi-attack to group. With no permanent pet, we are free to be illusionists again. Make Illusory Allies a dumb-fire pet for every player in the group. Change split personality to be a mirror of the illusionist. IE it casts what we cast. Change time-warp duration to burns 20% mana per second. This way we can use some of our mana abilities for something other than mana medic. Make Phase target a player eliminating all hate on that player to his implied target. Change channel focus to a toggle ability that stuns/stiffles us, we cast on another player granting 100% spell multi-attack. Change mechanics of casting speed where every % over 100 equals 1% spell multi-attack. So 130% spell casting speed equals 100% spell casting speed and 30% spell multi-attack.
Sadly this post is mainly about raiding Illys. I am an PVPing Illy on Nagafen and as normal on this server you stop and lock XP of your toons often. So this Illy is now on of the two main PVP ranges. In T4, he is 39. The typical level to try out the class and do PVP and then decide what to do with it. I am not interested in how well the Illy will do in raids. I am interested in what this class can do in PVP and here I can say this class at 39 is hard to master and in comparison to my ranger it really frustrates me very very often. And here people decide if they want to continue a class and others if they want to start this class. And Illys are not very often seen on the PVP server, at least in the lower levels I don't see many... and now I know why. Lot of people here wrote about the lack of DPs. True. But it I want a high DPS mage I go for Wizard. So instead of making all classes even and the same it's ok to have differences. And basically it depends on your playstyle. Maybe I don't do the highest DPS in BG matches with the Illy because I cannot spam AOEs but I can be very effective in some games and having (again I speak for T4) the highest kills in the match. What I miss/dislike: - Immunity in PVP. What is the use of mezzes if you effectively can only one-time mezz an opponent. In a game where you cannot get away he will be on you seconds later and then your biggest strength is gone because the next mezz will result in immunity. - Group mezz cannot be cast while running. In PVP that is vital. When 3 people go for the easy to kill Illy I'd like to emergency mezz them either by 0 seconds casting or mezz them while I run to the rest of my team. - Increase of buff times. The temporay buffs are often not useful in PVP because here you have to decide if you do damage the next second (because DPS is low so time counts in PVP) or buff yourself up and do damage 5 seconds later. But in that 5 seconds you might be dead already or stunned, stifled, interrupted. - Better mana regen. For a class that's said to be able to help with mana I constantly run out of power in PVP because I chain nuke with him due to the low DPS. And even with the mana buffs I run out of power very fast. - Give some better indication who is mezzed. In PVE that is not really vital but in PVP mixed teams people just aren'T use to mezzers. They hit everything I mezzed and the advantage is gone. Why not levitate those who are mezzed 5 meters in the air or cage them with highly visible beams or whatever so people at least see better that someone currently is not being able to do anything. I really hate it when there is a healer and another char and I mezz the healer so my group now is able to burn the other char and people on PVP servers just think "hey, let's kill the healer to remove his healing on the other char". - Invis while fighting and while running. Really I hate it in BGs when I cannot invis away when a ranger fires arrows at me to at least have a chance to get away. - Better mitigation against long range damage. Really my worst enemy is the ranger in PVP because if he picks on me and is out of range I can hardly do anything but go for cover - if I find it. Some kind of mezz proc would be nice here. Rangers have a buff that might clear the oponents target. Wardens have a buff that heal procs. Why can't an Illu not have a mezz proc, an interrupt proc, a stun proc whatever. Or give us an aura. When someone walks too close he will be mezzed for 3 seconds or something similar. Warlocks can enhance Magi's shielding with healing. Illys really are weak when it comes to protection. - Biggest problem I have with the Illy is the interpration of this class. Mainly I feel it somehow manipulates time by removing people from combat, making mana flowing faster or whatever. But it's not really someone that casts many illusions. Why not cast illusionary weapons? Why is my pet identified as pet on the PVP server so only idiots target it instead of me (it clearly says that it is my personae)? Why not cast illusionary mobs? Why not force an enemy to target my pet or any other illusion I have cast? Why not being able to wrap an enemy in the illusion to be one of my team so his own team may target him accidently? Why not set up an illusionary trap? Why not bring some new mechanic that confuses the other player by scrambling his hotbar setup temporarily so he has to search where his combat arts or spells are? Why not being able to make an opponent target his own team because he thinks they are the enemy? Why not being able to manipulate health or power visual indicator for the enemy so he thinks he is almost dead and casts heal spells on him although he is not? ... I miss illusionary things. Mind manipulating things. Reality twisting things. Lots of things are just for PVE use sadly... but this game was designed for PVE so they will never add things that mainly change the PVP playstyle but would have no use in a PVE environment.
Oh my god! I think I actually love those last 3 suggestions... that would be excellent! On the DPS side of things... personally I am not too fussed about Illy DPS. We have so many abilities that prevent damage, or reduce the effectiveness of hits landing with Silence, Aneurysm, Paranoia, Dismay, Bewilderment, Chromatic Storm, etc. that DPS isn't such an important thing.
Silbermond@Nagafen wrote: I feel for you, but Illy's in PVP aren't really suffering. You'r talking about stuff that would really be fun additions, and I agree they sound great. That said, alot of us do care about raiding and there is still alot of work that NEED's to be done, not just to make it awesome, but to make it playable, at least where you don't wont to jump off a cliff every AoE.
One change that they really need to make is to make Time Compression castable on the Illusionist. I get tried of being in a group with tank, healer, drige, 2 scout DPS, and Illusionist. I have to put TC on the healer. I would just like to be able to put it on myself when the group doesnt have an obivious choice. I can put it on my pet but not me? You changed it for Bards now do it for the illusionist
Zivgar wrote: This really needs to be done asap. It was done for troubs, why not illies? I'm usually in a group with troub, warlock, illy. UT really should go on the warlock and TC on the illy. I raided as a warlock in SF, and UT is pretty huge for warlock...thus I can't bring myself to complain about not getting UT, so TC pretty much goes to waste. If an illy puts TC on themselves when they should be TC'ing a wiz, then that's an issue for the raid or group leader to deal with.
+1 Bards can BC / UT themselves when no better choices in group, or when solo. TC self castable is really long overdue!
I haven't been following test server closely so i only know what ive heard but the changes coming up sound like its going to affect chanter DPS again in a bad way. SOE has failed to acknowledge on multiple occasions that they have made EQ2 reevolve around DPS. Everyone including healers are expected to DPS, wardens and templars aren't even wanted anymore because of the lack of DPS and let me tell you, troubs ain't having much fun either. I would have honestly thought the devs would have learned from the great "chanter strike" of SF that no one wants to have there DPS nerfed, and while "yes" there was no direct nerf there was no increase either during a overly easy expansion that revolved around AOE classes. I came back to EQ2 in June of this year after hearing that SOE had "atoned" for there ignorence and restored chanters to there former glory. I was pleased but my return, I'm affraid, may be short lived. DoV was a very fun expansion but the new blue stats on test are really excessive and not needed in my opinion, I personally don't like having to solve math equations each time i change out a piece of gear. I'm assuming people complained because you need a chain healer in every group because AOE's are so hard hitting that without wards your dead on pull (on trash mobs) so your answer was adding ranged wands for mages and it trivializes the entire melee spec that makes chanters fun to play (the danger of meleeing on mobs that even scouts don't dare approach is fun IMO). Less is more folks. Either way, since i don't get paid to play test and i don't pay to play a beta your out of luck with getting me to formally log over to test so all I know is hearsay but... If you crap on THE hardest working class in this game AGAIN and mess up our DPS I will be the first to drop this game like a bad habit and head out to Old Republic with a clear conscious. Why are we the hardest working? EVERY one of our buffs go down when we die and keeping out pet alive is a sick joke, a doable but sick joke. So my suggestions are... 1) Lose the AOE's that kill our pets, its a mean joke. Or make it where our pet can be cast faster so we can keep it up longer in raid. There is no reason to make the hardest working class in the game miserable. 2) Fix our buffs do they do not go down when we die. You have nerfed this game so much it is hard to tell the difference between it and WoW so go that extra mile and make it easy on us. We make you look GOOD and its hard as hell to make ourselves look good while we do it but for those of us who love the class, we learn to pull it off and it shows when theres a GOOD chanter on board in raid. Don't let that change. Bards buffs don't go down and there UTILITY to so why should ours? Bards are generally outparsing us now and there UTILITY so why is that? I don't expect to beat Tier 1 DPS on a straight parse but I expect to come darn close if i'm the best at my class. I came in during RoK and raided during RoK/TSO, im a soldier on my chanter and I like stealing the glory from DPS classes who don't know what there doing. Its what makes this class beautiful to me. WE ARE single target DPS and we should shine when it comes to DPS'ing on single target mobs. Keep us within a "respectable" range of tier one at all times or else. Don't over do it though I don't feel like dealing with nerfs mid expansion. Remeber that bards can buff themselves and we cannot, so they moving ahead of us. Maybe you would like to reconsider that or let us do the same? 3) i'm relatively ignorent about the spell flurry changes on test, all i know is what ive heard but it sounds like crap for chanters. I don't pay money to play EQ I pay money to play my chanter's (plural) so keep that in mind and remember SF. If your adding spell flurry that is going to do little for chanters then allow cast speed to overflow into spell flurry JUST like haste for melee classes and tweak the ratio so were balenced. A lot of people are currently speccing out of AGI because gear has trivialized it (except for recovery of course)... Bring back the pew pew of the AGI by allowing cast speed to overflow and give us an advantage. 4) I remember SWG and there terrible ordeal that took place that day when the "patch" went in. It was YOU SOE that did it. I expect you to do it again with EQ. I have no faith in you anymore. Prove me wrong, I beseech thee. 5) Add a purple lightsabre to the marketplace and maybe a Japanese school girl outfit that will match my illy's hair. Thank you, I hope to see you all in Dec! Edit: Ok apparently cast speed rolls over into spell DA buts its a very small %. Why the hell do we need spell DA and spell flurry anyway... Either way I don't care nor do i get paid to figure out why you can't do anything right. Just make sure you don't mess up our DPS and you will be fine, carry on. P.S. Add a "How to play" guide for Rangers, I'm tired of hearing them cry because I crush them beneath me on the parse. =)
1. better power feed: fixing manasoul would be a good start. making channel focus' base reuse 5 mins would help a lot too 2. TC self-castable: would help dps a bit when we're in a melee group. I hate to see TC goes to waste. 3. better pet survivability the 10% max hp from LU61 hardly makes a difference. we need a pet that does not get one shot every single aoe in hardmode raids, or just make the pet 2sec base cast time so we wont lose huge dps if we recast it.
QQ-Fatman wrote: /concur MAKE OUR PET CASTABLE WHILE WE MOVE! And reduce the cast time! MAKE OUR PET CASTABLE WHILE WE MOVE! And reduce the cast time! MAKE OUR PET CASTABLE WHILE WE MOVE! And reduce the cast time! Im tired of being left behind by the raid after every pull when my pets dies! And think about the troub changes... there gonna jcap the chanters for group buffs like PoM and DR ALL THE TIME NOW if there smart. Its not fair to scout group chanters. Were gonna get smoked on the parse. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR DOING!
If you are a raiding Illu then what has JCap got to do with it ? aren't you permanently at 100% re-use ? Also can someone please explain to me why coercer MF is 12 times better than illusionist? It increases power for a max of 6 players on a 30 second reuse (plus the coercer) whereas illu's increase 1 player (plus the illu). Thats assuming that all 6 need power which is pretty rare (not unknown, but even with, for example, Eireen, 1 in the MT group cannot be fed and outside the MT group its rare all 6 get drained). I support illusionists request for more DPS whole heartedly. It is beyond disheartenting to see sorcerors, summoners, predators, and rogues all parsing between 250K and 400K and the poor illu struggling to get to 150K. Dirges can easily out DPS chanters and troubs who are getting a boost are usually ahead. When you consider the buffs that bards bring to a group/raid it is difficult to see why they should out DPS illu's. It is also not unusual to see a couple of healers and fighters doing more DPS. The only non-priest, non-fighter class that DPS's for less than illusionist is of course the coercer.
Encantador wrote: Yes JCap is a joke besides the crit bonus for an illy. Regarding Mana Reg your way off base. It affects two groups instead of two targets making it hit 12 times instead of two (check your log files it's hitting 12 times, not 7). It also costs around 1/2 of what the illusionists does (around 1600 for a coercer and 3600 for an illy), extrapolate that out to the 700% extra mana persistant debuff fights. That alone is insanely better than the illy but it doesn't even stop there, the coercer can also get the mana to all 12 targets in 5 seconds compared to the illy's two targets at best 15 seconds. Feeding the mage group on HM tormax (and many other fights after) a coercer can get well over 3k / second with the mage group illy getting around 800k, that's at least 4 times better, but without the constant feeding that illy isn't getting squat and 12 times better is more than feasable. 12 times better is debatable (because most fights don't have the persistant mana burn debuffs) but the fact that illy's are seriosly a joke for mana regenation is not. Hell the troubs are going to parse better on some fights.
