From archive, thanks to Trojaan: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/welcome-to-the-jungle-eq2-pvp.377158/ Editor's Note: The first thing I did before leaving PVE and restarting on Nagafen was sift through the PvP forums. I remember very clearly one of the stickied posts in the old forums, as it laid out the "feel" of EQ2 PvP very poignantly for me even before I got to the server in the first place. Sadly, the post was lost when the forums were changed, but today I saw someone who had it archived post it again, and I think it needs to be brought back as a sticky. I do not remember the name of the original poster, so if someone has that info I'll edit this thread to give them full credit as deserved. I do remember them only having a handful (5? 8?) total posts and I thought that it was pretty swank to see someone who's not a forum regular express themselves so clearly. And remember, this was posted a *long* time ago. In light of the changes in the works for PvP, and the generally escalating whinefests over the last year here, I think this needs to be re-read by all of us, so without further ado:------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: This is going to be long, opinionated, and blunt, but I've been reading a few too many threads from people who don't seem to understand what it is that they got themselves into, and are clamoring for SOE to run to the rescue and change everything about the game to suit their particular idea of just what "PvP" is. This is coming from a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, but by no means am I claiming to be an expert on EQ or PvP. I'm just a player who understands what game it is I'm playing. Now then, who I am: I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek back when it was the only "red" server there was. I played on Tallon Zek when it opened, was a long-time player there during the glory days of large-scale good vs. evil battles, daily raids between Nektulos and West Freeport, and moved on to Sullon Zek when it opened, and played on the good (read: suicidal) team. I was mediocre at best, hardly a feared PKer, but I learned to survive and enjoyed what I played, no matter if I was outmatched or not. I understood what I was playing. Now that EQ2 has opened PvP servers, I couldn't help but join in. But I've noticed that there are large numbers of "bluebies" who came to these servers not understanding the nature of PvP in EQ games. This is evident in the incredible number of threads on this board where people are crying for everything to be changed to support what they thought it is. So let's get this started with the fundamental laws of the jungle. Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die.There's no getting out of it. You did not come here to be safe. You were safe before. Now, those strawberry fields of treasure and experience are crawling with cutthroats who know where you used to go, what you used to do, what you used to seek there, and how to use this knowledge to catch you and inflict death on you. They aren't going to wait for you to get ready. They aren't going to play fair. They aren't going to care if a particular spell or tactic is too devastating if they catch you with it. Your only way around it is to learn them- learn where they are, learn what they're after, learn what they're going to do, and prepare yourself ahead of time. And no matter how well-prepared you are for what's out there- you are still going to die. There is no way out of Law #1. Whether it's at the hands of someone at the top of your attack range picking you off just because you're there, whether it's a group of players lower than you who gang up and tear you apart, whether it's an even-con, similar class who just happens to get that last shot in before you, whether it's some punk who sucker-punches you right after a tough fight, or whether it's someone whom you thought had no chance in hell who happens to get lucky, you're going to be killed. If this bothers you, you made a mistake. Law of the Jungle #2: This isn't your mother's RPGYou can't play the same EQ2 you played when they weren't after you. The gear that was excellent enough to live in because of its effectiveness against the mindless MOBs isn't worth squat- you have to outfit yourself with your most dreaded foes in mind. Resists are king, the stats you used to drool over are just going to have to take the bench. You can't just trot over to your favorite hunting grounds to knock out that writ or exploration quest anymore. They know that those spots attract people who still think that they're playing the same game, and they will be waiting for you. (See Law #1) You have to forget everything you learned on the blue servers, and be prepared to learn it all over again. There are new rules for how to get a level. There are new rules for where to hunt, and there are new rules for which routes to take through the lands. If it's something that many people used to do or where many people used to go, it is now bait that will lead many people to their deaths. If you thought that you were going to play the same route you played before to get to level 60-whatever except that you can kill people now, you made a mistake. Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfedAll classes have advantages in certain situations. If you find yourself in one of these situations and you aren't the class in question, see Law #1. So, such-and-such a class can take you down solo if they get the jump on you, if all they do is X and Y? Well, yes. That's what they do, and you were there. The essence of EQ2 is that all classes have advantages and weaknesses, and the way we overcome our weaknesses isn't telling the game developer to take them away, or give you someone else's advantage. The way you overcome these weaknesses is by grouping with someone who can complement them. You're not here to run around solo and have a fair, balanced even 1v1 match against everyone you meet. That's not PvP, that's dueling. Running around alone isn't something you have the right to do. Not all classes were meant to solo in PvE as well as others, what makes you think this is any different? And if your class can't do what so-and-so does, they shouldn't. Everyone has "certain classes" who flat-out have them beat. Everyone has classes that can't hold a candle to them. This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance. There's more to PvP that who has what nuke or how many hitpoints or what dps rate is. PvP is about knowing everything you can do and how it works, not just what numbers scrolled up when you fought mobs before. If you can't fight them, learn how to. If you can't learn and expect SOE to change everything around to suit you, you made a mistake. Crying that you can't beat X class and they need to be nerfed doesn't mean you're right, it means you're an unskilled player who doesn't understand how to play his class. You also have to understand the other classes and what their weaknesses are. Learn, Adapt, and Grow; if you can't do that then you're not cut out for this. Law of the Jungle #4: Success is measured by survivalAny idiot can rack up a high number of kills, that doesn't make them skilled. Your skill isn't determined by how many people of what level you can take on. And the little punk who ran away, or zoned, or avoided you altogether, he's not a coward, he's smart. Just because you engage someone doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. You have to earn that kill. If they get away, they survived. If they fight back too hard and you're outmatched, sticking around and letting them have you isn't brave or honorable, it's stupid. Make them earn it! If you can get away, you deserved to. If you can't out-damage them because you're in offensive stance and they're in defensive stance, it's not unfair- they're just thinking ahead of you. Don't lower your defenses just because you think that extra bit of dps that you used to get against mobs is going to turn the tide- because you're thinking in terms of a kill you haven't earned yet and not thinking with survival in mind. If all those nasty roots and spells and whatever are eating you up, stock up on items that take care of them: potions, resist gear, etc. If it isn't a piece of gear with surviving an attack in its design, you made a mistake. It takes time, patience, and smarts to figure out all the little tricks, tactics, and items that help you survive in this world. It's not about killing- it's about depriving your enemy of the kill. If this isn't your primary thought when planning every last detail your character from skills to selections to gear to hotkeys to camera angle to system options, see Law #1. You aren't a good PvPer because of who you fight and which fights you win, you are a good PvPer depending on your overall level of preparation and how many times you can count that that preparation saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].
Law of the Jungle #5: You are never going to be a godToo many of you have had that time when you have those cute little adolescent fantasies about being a powerful, unstoppable killing machine with the title of Overlord while wielding the shiniest, largest and most phallic weapon in Norrath and laying out every single foe you happen to encounter through sheer invincibility. It ain't gonna happen- ever. (See Law #1) PvP isn't for people who like to play single-player games in godmode, spanky. You didn't come here to be godlike, you came here to embrace mortality. You aren't just here to kill other players- you came here to give them permission to kill you, to utilize advatages over you, to take advantage of your weaknesses, to leave you broken and bleeding while they /dance on your corpse and count their money. If you came here planning on becoming the all-powerful king of the hill that no one can topple, you made a mistake. Even as the server ages, everyone's going to bunch up in the higher levels and guilds and players are going to be after you more than ever. You will never be safe again. The safe servers are still where you left them.l Law of the Jungle #6: It's still just a gamePlaying on a PvP server doesn't take cojones. It doesn't take an iron will, or an asbestos stomach. It doesn't make you a man. You're still an EQ2 geek just like the rest of us, it's just a lot more difficult. If it's too hard, too frustrating, too unfair, too immature, too cutthroat, too inconvenient, or if you're just not that good at it or if you think that so-and-so shouldn't be doing such-and-such because it "ruins" your fun, then it's not for you. You're here if you enjoy what you're playing. If you are here because you want to enjoy it, but you're not, don't expect SOE to get rid of everything you don't like about it. It is what it is. It's MEAN. And if someone one-shots you, or takes your plat that you were just on your way to bank, or whatever else it may be that spoiled your plans, well, you either suck it up and keep playing or you're on the wrong server. It's only "griefing" if you let it give you grief. If you can't laugh it off, you're the problem. If you're not having fun, you made a mistake. This ugly duckling isn't going to grow up into a swan, you just have to love it unconditionally and understand that yes, it's always going to look like that. There's no shame in playing on the blue servers if that's more your cup of tea, we're all here to play games, and the game you play isn't a reflection on your status as a human being. But PvP is a different game. If you could go live in a beachhouse with central air and plasma-screen TV's for the same price, why would you move into a shack with no plumbing or power and complain about the leak in the roof? You have to want to live in this shack. Don't expect SOE to turn it into a resort, they've already built those for you. All of these factors lead me to one final point. Filling up boards with complaints that "X class can do this and I can't and so-and-so ganked me when I was fighting and I was 10 levels lower than him and I can't go anywhere without being bind-camped and SOE needs to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY" doesn't help anyone- it only buries legitimate issues like bugs and exploits under mountains of whining by people who can't seem to understand that they are just not that good at the game. There's only one thing that should be on your mind when you think about all the problems with PvP and the PvP servers. The final, and truest Law of the Jungle: LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.
That's all quite lovely, and as a lifelong former resident of the original Nagafen, I do remember it all from back when it was originally posted. However, this time around, New Nagafen (a bit of a misnomer there) is a 12-week-long, 1-character-only (so they can get more gold subs) FFA PvP event server. On the real Nagafen, you had to really earn your stripes and become an Exile to play FFA PvP. Here, 6 main groups of oranges never stop camping the bells of their own faction's green lowbie zones. I wouldn't call that "A Jungle, Baby," I'd just call that "Camping Baby characters," the end. I'd definitely call it a "Bungle in the Jungle," though. Did you even play in this beta? I harvested many hours in almost every zone straight to cap, never seeing another living soul on this purported "Nagafen" beta. Crafting XP is horrible, too, so I can see why. I would grind orange and yellow heroics, doing all their associated quests, for hours on multiple characters, and never saw another living soul in any of those dungeons. It takes an hour to ding 11 to 12 and several hours to ding 17 to 18 doing that (all if you actually have rest XP, twice as long if you don't), though, so I can see why. It's odd that all the XP is mega slow, when the launch version of this thing is supposed to shut down after 12 weeks. If they don't want any progression whatsoever, and just want people camping the same one PvP spot for that 12 weeks, they should have made one Battleground, plunked that one set of armor and a King of the Hill title up for grabs in it and called it a day. I never saw anyone as I wandered across the outlands ever fighting over a single contested, or pulling a single world boss, or anything else. A /who always showed I was the only person in whatever zone I was in, period, nights, weekends, or whatever. There'd be about 10-20 people in Qeynos proper, total, and a /who all would repeatedly show 20-40 people total on the server. Yeah, yeah, add another 20-40 people total for the Freep side, so 40-60 people camping their own faction's newbie zone bells all day long, hooray. Everyone in my guild stopped logging on at all days ago. And don't give me the "it's just beta; no one wants to work on a temporary character" nonsense as a lame excuse to why a launched event server will be so much better. We all already know that those characters will be temporary as well, around for only 12 weeks. FFA is not working already. Besides Lazy Ganker Syndrome where both sides never leave their own newbie docks, friendly fire is dumb, and no one seems able to fix it so you're not killing your own guildies while trying to help them. Six is the maximum team size. And you can't do any drive-by heals or jump in and help any of those green lowbies if you wanted to; you'll just wind up killing them by accident. All that leaves is "dog eat dog, why help guy X when he's just going to be camping my entrance on the other side of that gate in five minutes anyway." Ditto for actually bothering to trade a rare mat or certain drop someone is begging for in the chat, or even putting your crafted wares (what little you've got) into the broker to help someone else with. This server isn't working already. And itemization of gear (especially crafted gear) totally sucks besides. Crafters, harvesters and questers are being run right off the server quite forcefully and quite intentionally by the devs it seems. That's sad, because A.) their money is as green as anyone else's, but there's no place for them on this FFA thing, and B.) harvesters, questers and contested-and-boss-pullers provide much needed open PvP prospects throughout the zones of EQ2. I doubt those orange ganker 6-mans camping their own side's green newbie bells are going to be too happy only having that to do for very long, either, especially since those greens started bailing out of the Nagafen beta during its first week, not to mention that it's boring as heck. I refused to even get involved in it. ,
I also remember that original post about the jungle. However, my experience of this beta is about the same as you Siren They need to bring back factions to encourage mass faction-based PvP so people can help each other. I wouldnt be against certain zones being FFA though so long as your faction is tagged and identifiable... Restoring crafting is a no-brainer to encourage people to be out and harvesting and boost the economy... with higher exp to PvE, although there should be bonus to open world PvE (esp in highly contested zones). I loved seeing the Gods about in Norrath again (Mischief), which will make for some very exciting open-world (future) challenges Meanwhile, PvP exp should be significantly reduced in-line with open world PvE. I would also love to see no instanced dungeons to encourage pvp. Finally, I would remove the safe status from the home cities, give a bonus to exp and add in carnage flagging (as before)
I have not tried this because I am not so skilled at one character here. Pvp beta was a blast on eq1 though. I was way more skilled at my then only 2. I have 29 now, so nope. This seems like fun though. Is it too late to get in
Ummm, not sure why I need to point out the obvious, but oh well, here goes: The original three pvp servers all died to attrition after just a few years. Maybe folks are trying to come up with some new ideas so maybe that doesn't happen again?
Old Nagafen died due to guild halls, fast travel, flyers/leapers, Battlegrounds, separate PvP gear, and hardcore level locked twinks becoming brick walls that new players couldn't even dent-- the twinks were one-shotting newbies until all the new blood left and the server died. Deathtoll was on the right track, eliminating most of that stuff. However, class and gear balance was poor, and exploiters ran amuck. They really need to go back to Factional PvP and Exiles like Deathtoll, polish up gear and classes from there, and get better at catching and banning exploiters.
As long as there is level progression, EQ2 pvp is doomed to fail. Devs should choose a level, make everyone the same level in MC gear. Skill with your class (or group) should determine win / lose...not twinked gear from people with nothing to do but game & prey on new players.
If you remove levels and gear differences, you kind of took away the entire point of the game. Sounds like you want to play Fortnite not a MMO.
Need I point out that the event server is not an MMO? EQ2 is an MMO. Devs are not offering a replacement for Naggy. They are offering a limited time event server. Make everyone the same level, and give plat (or SC...or something else) as rewards for achievements. Let the pvp be about skill instead of gear.
Imo, all three original pvp servers died because good pvp and good pve systems conflict with each other in counter productive ways. When you drop pvp into a pve environment, you have to find a way to reconcile large character power imbalances. The way eq2 is set up, title hugging, gank squads, and raiding are incentivized. I believe pvp should be about being skillful, crafty, and clever; and not about dominating opponents with levels and itemization. This is what BR offers. It's pure pvp where everyone starts off on the same footing and doesn't need a second job raiding to compete and have fun. PVE with PVP just doesn't work. If you're going to try it, it makes more sense to start with pvp, and then bend and shape pve elements in ways that preserve the integrity of enjoyable, skill-based pvp systems. I don't begrudge SOE for trying it, but it failed, and we would do well to learn from the experience
PvP died because of: 1. Instant-Travel (the bell system, i dont mean the druid and wizard ports) 2. Flying mounts 3. Battlegrounds (and the pvp gear coming with BGs). Im not counting the countless closed instances because EQ2 still had tons of non-instanced content. Take a look at the Kunark expansion. We had nice huge zones filled with countless quest hubs. Every person did those quests on several characters. You could always find people in those areas. Then we had a few open dungeons like chardok and sebilis where groups could hunt other groups. It was one of my favorite expansion packs and despite all the closed instances, pvp bloomed. But then came battlegrounds which offered the best possible pvp gear. Why would you do open world pvp when you could get the best pvp gear in battlegrounds GUARANTEED? You didnt have to win, you could be so frigging bad and would still get tokens. All you had to do was invest time. People spent their whole day in the BG hub, leaving Nagafen behind. Then came flying mounts which gave people immunity everywhere, that is yet another death sentence for a pvp server. You dont have to be a genius to understand that some things will kill pvp servers. Keep it simple: EQ2 is a super PvE game, it has tons of content to keep people busy and happy. Keep pvp enabled, make the world dangerous and thrilling. Dont try to turn it into a battle royal (seasonal chracter whipes), it just wont work. Make people love their character so they spend time and energy into the char. Keep the 1 character rule and add 1 character after every season. Just give the server some dev love and punish cheaters/exploiters who ruined the last pvp server deathtoll and it would work.
another big reason why Deathtoll died was , people like to still do PvE too and when mobs became to hard to kill even for raids a lot of people in my guild called it quits. I took 3 months for the overpowering mobs to be fixed and I saw the population to plummet in that time period.
Lack of dev love could be big reason numer 4. I was done with deathtoll when all the blatant exploiting wasnt punished. I wrote plenty petitions and recorded several incidents on video. It would have taken 2 minutes for any dev to log invisibile into the server and watch a hand full of people abuse glitches and bugs to win pvp fights in real time.
2006: PvP servers introduced with KOS 2009: Venekor merged into Nagafen 2010: BGs and toughness gear 2011: Vox merged into Nagafen 2015: Nagafen merged into Skyfire. I played on Vox since it launched, and I can tell you that during ROK, that server was done - dead as dirt. The only real pvp going on was and organized rvr near the writ givers on the docks. We'd spend hours looking for pvp and be lucky to find an occasional solo out questing. There was no "blooming" about it. By all measure, BGs should have ***helped*** pvp. It was an opportunity for everyone to get decent gear without a huge time sink - better gear more parity, and more time for pvp. Of course, rushing to end game to achieve level parity, running heroics and/or raiding 3 or 4 times per week for gear - that helped? Nope.
Wow shocker, the best pvp on the old school pvp servers was before pvp vendors came out. Yet so many keep asking for it.
Ummm. Correlation does not equal causation. In fact, I was making the argument that BG gear should have helped pvp. Venekor and Vox were done before BGs even showed up.
PvP stats in general absolutely destroyed PvP. BG gear was littered with them. Honestly, BG was competing for the same audience as far as PvP servers were concerned. They were fun, no doubt. But it got to the point where there was slim to no open world PvP because a majority of players would sit inside BGs all day. They were much friendlier to casual players, more accessible, easier rewards, etc. But it should never have been intertwined. If you wanted BGs to be your source of PvP, you should have played on a Blue Server. The stats never should have affected PvP, and most importantly, PvP specific stats should never have been introduced to Nagafen. Those two things were critical in EQ2 PvPs downfall.
