You must be a fast reader and blatantly evasive....either way, I can admit my own. You cant. /shrug Lates
Kendricke wrote: "Some of you may not like me, Radar-X, or others. Some of you may hate us. Some of you may want us banned. Some of you even say as much on these forums. When it comes down to it though, those sort of comments are one of the fastest ways to earn a reputation with the powers that be." This seems to imply that Radar-X agrees with Kendricke. tsk.. tsk.. if this is true Radar, you've been LYING to me all this time! :smileytongue: It also seems to imply that there is a power out there that I'm going to lose my reputation with. hmm.. rather arrogant talk if you ask me. If I wasn't upset with SoE, I sure would be if they spoke to me that way just because I gave them feedback they asked me for. Contrastly, no one has power over me. I choose the game. I pay the money. The one with the "power" is the one with the money. If I give them my money and they abuse that power, then I don't give them any money and they just lost any power they thought they had over me. I walk away and find something else. At that point I could care less what they think of me. See how it works? Arrogance begets cancellations. Be careful how you speak for SoE.
The ones with the "power" are the ones capable of making desired changes. If you can produce your own Templar class changes on your character on your server, then I'm impressed. However, if we're asking for changes to occur, then yes, there is someone with power over you and I. I can't recode the class. I can compile data. I can present cases. I can reason arguments for what I wish to see. If those persons who have the power and authority to enact those changes I desire like what they see, then my goal is met. If not, then I'm just wasting my time. Therefore, I tend to do what I can to try to lower the chances of wasting my time. That means making sure I present my facts and observations as correctly as I personally can, trying to avoid personal attacks and needless mudslinging, and doing what I can to avoid creating a confrontational tone with those persons who can actually enact changes.
SoE can read, can't they? What makes you think they need YOU to present anything? You, who were the one who started all these "debates" by demanding proof of every observation a player ever made on these boards. Frankly, if you played more and posted less you may have seen what they were talking about. And there is NO power over me. If they keep it like it is, I leave, that's it. Message Edited by Kaylena on 11-20-2005 07:25 PM
That's certainly an option. Just realize that SOE holds the cards here. If you don't like the cards you're seeing, then you go to another table. If you want to see different cards though, you're going to have to find a way to communicate that's going to get heard. There's a great deal of attacks on this forum specifically - against other players and the developers both. Strictly speaking, this doesn't seem to be the best way to go about accomplishing such goals as many here seem to indicate they have. To recap: If you don't care about changes, then there's nothing to worry about. If you want to give the changes you want to see enacted brought about, then it stands to reason that you attempt to present those changes in a way that will likely gain the correct response.
Found a dead thread to start the lectures up again on, did ya. Time to put a stop to this Raijiin. Here you have a perfect example. BTW before you start selling tickets for the Productive Communication Lecture Series, you might want to learn how to communicate effectively with *anybody* around here. Your track record around here ain't exactly impressive Also, you're a little confused about some things. WE are the ones paying here. I know this is a tough concept but on this planet the people selling something generally need to worry about pleasing the people buying.
That was my whole point. That there is no 'powers that be', as you put it. The perceived power you are talking about is a mental state of mind. Similar to the type of 'power' some guilds think they have over their members. That type of mental power only exists for as long as the member puts up with being dissatisfied. Once the member leaves, the guild has no power over them whatsoever. Their rules and charters mean nothing to that individual any longer. That guild has lost any perceived power and probably a good chunk of their own reputation with that person. Then there is business power. The person who has that is the one who holds the money. If I hold the money, I have the perceived power. If you want my money, you produce a product I will buy and as with this game, subsequently rent for a monthly fee. I'm still the one paying the money, so you still have to produce a quality product. If you do, I continue to give you money. If you change that product's quality during the time I'm subscribing to it, then it's YOUR reputation that falls, not mine. If I cease to continue to pay, you not only lose the money on the subscription fees, you lose your credibility with me also. What you quoted from Blackguard is his stance on dealing with angry customers. It wouldn't appear to me he entertains angry customers. However, being a six-year customer myself with this company, I know full well that an angry customer is one that believes he is being ignored. If a customer knows the answer will be NO, he will probably just leave and not hang around the shop demanding they produce what he wants. But if the customer thinks there is a chance, he may or may not sit and wait. Ultimately, the more time that wears on, the more impatient the customer will become. It's not uncommon to see impatient customers loudly demanding to speak to a supervisor or simply walk out the door and write off that company. That's what this comes down to. Either they start a dialogue or they're going to see people make a decision. They hold no cards they can WIN with. You may think they do, but business sense says that customers do not hang around forever waiting for a supervisor to touch base with them. The player folds and the game is over for all but who remain seated at the table. When the only one still sitting is the dealer, I fail to see what good that will do him when the next table has a good game going on. He loses business. SoE's best move at this point would be to say something - similar to what Raijinn has tried to do for us and I believe I did thank him for that. Beyond Raijinn however, they need to tell us publically they are considering x,y, and z options or they don't intend to do anything at this time -- or, that they would LIKE consolidated feedback to review. They haven't even done that. That's all these people are asking for. They are under no obligation to tell them how to design the type of product they are interested in. Trust me, they KNOW what the concerns are better then you or I do. I'm quite confident they are aware of what is working and what is not. It doesn't matter whether if it's 'working as intended'. It matters if it's working to the satisfaction of the majority of customers they need in order to establish a profit. Therefore, arrogance has no place in this discussion. They asked for our opinions when they submitted the revamped game (do you need a quote? I read that solicitation, I'm quite sure). What muddled the feedback they asked for, were the posts constantly challenging the opinions given. In conclusion, you were among the people who contested many of the opinions given here. In fact, I believe you were the loudest. On a personal level, you challenged everything I wrote (here and elsewhere), going so far as to look up my posts and gather your friends to back you on the attacks and have them do the same. Yet you say you don't condone personal attacks. Ok so, 6 years of playing a templar and I come here to be told by you to go relearn my class upon the first post I make, but that's not to be taken personally? That's not quite how dialogue works, Kendricke. Now, months later, after more and more come in and say the same which you disagreed with initially, you decide to step up to the plate and be the person who delivers those opinions to SoE. /blink! Without an apology or even a statement that you were wrong in doing the above, you now tell us that you're qualified to deliver suggestions as to what is in the Templar's best interest and ... tell us the manner in which it needs to be delivered, too. So you tell me. Why am I in utter awe after watching all these things develope as they have? Do you even think that MAYBE you were deserving of some of the retaliation you received? And don't you feel that perhaps if you didn't confront every complaint that was initially presented here, that somehow, this topic could have all been avoided?
There's a difference between an "angry customer" and a "belligerent customer". Be angry. Be upset. That's fine and to be expected if you're not happy with a service. However, when you cross that line and start consistently and intentionally attacking those providing the service, there's an issue. SOE isn't a faceless corporation. Treating the developers as if they are mindless bean counters or uneducated, uncaring dimwits isn't likely to earn much positive attention. We really are our own worst enemy. On the whole, Templars have lots of ideas and issues they want addressed. Yet, the majority of those same Templars seem to think that the best way to get those issues addressed is by attacking the very people who they want to address the issues. In lieu of actual developers, those who seem to be defending the decisions made by the developers are attacked in their stead. Does this really, really seem like the best way to get the issues addressed? As far as "retaliation", that's typically a word reserved for defending against attack. I'm not attacking individuals. I attack ideas. I attack arguments. I point out inconsistencies. I challenge assumptions. I ask questions. Find an attack against you Kaylena. For every one you could find from me (if you find any at all), I'm certain I could find a dozen or more in return. Is that "retaliation"? Is that "eye for an eye"? Even so, would that make it right? What's the point? Really...what's the point? For the sake of argument, assume that all I did with every post was attack you. What does attacking me in "retaliation" prove? What does it accomplish? Am I supposed to be offended? Hurt? Upset? By what? Someone on a message board doesn't like me? You're not the first person to take such a stance. You won't be the last. I'm arrogant. I admit it. I'm also frequently condescending, self-righteous, stubborn, outspoken, and zealous. So what? What does any of that have to do with the price of tea in China? If I was the most vile, vehement, vitriolic spewing specimen upon these forums...so what? Does it affect what I say? Does it make my points incorrect? What if I were horribly deformed? What if I were a leper? Does that disprove my arguments? What if I had only one eye? What if I were deaf? Does that make my arguments suddenly incorrect? My own members frequently refer to me as cold, humorless, and aloof. That doesnt' mean they don't think I run a good guild. It doesn't mean I'm a bad guildmaster...or a bad player...or even a bad person. Even if I was a bad person...it's irrelevant. So continue attacking me all you want. It doesn't matter. "Retaliate" all you want for perceived slights and imagined insults. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans in regards to the issues. I've stated...clearly...that developers told me to my face that some types of posts get ignored and others get attention. I'm attacked by a small handfull of Templars here for making the statement. It doesn't mean the statements untrue. It doesn't mean the developers didn't say it. It doesn't mean I didn't hear it. It just means some players were upset with me and blinded themselves to hearing what was said. I've quoted developers stating..again...why some posts get noticed and others get ignored. Again, instead of acknowledging that this might be important...the attacks are made once again. Good job on that. Here's what happens when I see an attack: I report it. That's typically it. I don't go to a secret room with the rest of the "we are fine brigade" back at "W.A.F" headquarters and plot out "retaliatory" strikes. We don't get together in PM and plan out assaults on the forums. In fact, there is no "we". I've never so much as spoken to Supernova17, or Radar-X, or whoever else is supposed to be in this "brigade" I keep getting accused of belonging to. However, if it helps, I think I found a picture of what it might look like if we WERE to get together for such a purpose: In this artist's rendering, you can see what it might look like if the "we are fine" brigade got together to plot out our newest rebuttals. It's a grand conspiracy. I mean, every Templar KNOWS that it takes 5 minutes to solo a single blue solo con target. However, we can't let that sort of information get out to the public. My god, man - do you realize the consequences if the public knew the truth! Of course we have to lie about soloing blue targets in 45 seconds. Likewise, we KNOW that Glory of Combat is worthless. Parses we provided to back up fictional groups where our healing was adequate without ever casting spells were meticulously hand typed out in order to obscure the truth. We can't let the public know what's really happening. Great scott, man - what if Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public found out that the spell's actually worthless?! We can't have that, can we? It's obvious that we must continue our clandestine spin machine. If we don't, people might figure out that I'm actually a public account actually played by several developers. I'm really Blackguard. There you have it. The secret's out. Kendricke is merely a fake name I've been using to cleverly protect the interests of the mother country, er, company. I must give my all to see to it that we keep players from learning the truth. [/QUOTE] Seriously, I wonder what folks think sometimes with all the labels and attacks. What possible reason do I have for purposefully resisting changes that might really be good for the Templar class or the game overall? Does anyone really believe I'm out to get Templars? Obviously I want what's best for the class I've been playing for over seven years in various games. It doesn't mean that my views on what's best or even what's right is going to mesh with what others feel is best or right. It certainly doesn't mean I'm just going to ignore statements made that I feel require some form of response. Even then, what I think deserves a response and what others feel deserves a response is going to differ. That's really it though. I say things that people dislike...or at least in ways that people dislike. So instead of responding to what I've said, the bullseye is shifted to the person. Because developers aren't posting here, people turn their sights to the players who seem closest to the developers. Yes, I want developers posting here. However, I'm not going to delude myself into believing that a developer post - positive or not - is going to be met with pure gratitude and thanks. No matter what a developer states in here, it's going to draw fire. It doesn't matter what is said - people will complain and complain vehemently. Personally, I think that's a big reason they're avoiding saying anything here. Historically speaking, the Templar forums aren't exactly a bastion of respect and constructive posting. For the love of all that's holy...I tried posting an issues compilation post and I was immediately jumped on by critics who suggested I was trying to steal Caethre's glory. Does that seem like a constructive atmosphere to anyone else here? The cattiness has to stop. It has to. It's not a bloody competition. It's a discussion forum...for discussion. That doesn't mean rainbows and unicorns all the time...but it certainly doesn't mean chokeholds and verbal body slams either. Find a way to get over it; get past it; get around it; get by however you can no matter what "it" is. We're not doing ourselves any favors by continuing the confrontations.
Again you are so far from the truth. This all started with people being angry. After weeks of pure silence from the devs, what can an intelligent person expect? Attacks on devs are natural cause to their silence. If they actually were providing a service, people would settle for that. But since they seem to be totally ignoring the problem, they are just begging to be attacked personally. SoE should definately either hire actual developers who know their stuff, or if they think they have some, fire those and hire new ones who can actually interact with customers.
Ok, you feel the developers aren't doing their jobs because they aren't posting what you personally want to hear on a message board. We've already heard from a member of the "dev team" who stated that issues are being looked into. That wasn't enough, was it. You want specifics. More than that, you want specifics in areas that are important to you. The developers aren't posting what you want to hear...so you're calling for them to be fired. How is that constructive? Better yet, what if they actually followed your advice? What if they turned around and fired developers because they don't post enough? What then? Get a batch of developers who post but don't work? How much are you willing to pay for computer scientists who are also good with public communications? What if after all of that, the communications you get isn't what you personally want to hear? Should they fire the new batch of developers and start anew? Forget the rules of the forums that state that personal attacks are off-limits. Forget that it's not constructive. Let's follow the logic that any time I don't get an answer on an issue I have for an extended amount of time, I'm allowed to personally attack someone. At my work, I've been waiting on a review for some time. Yes, we're overloaded with projects and I'm juggling several dozen customers not to mention what my director is working on. No, because he hasn't had the time to give me a review, I should march into his office and call him names, right? Obviously, that's the best tactic to get what I want, right? Have a fellow coworker holding up your workload because he's waiting on an approval? Call him names. That'll get him moving on it. Tired of those contractors taking too long to refinish your house? Call them names - that'll motivate them. Can't stand the fact that you're still waiting for your order at the steakhouse? Call the waitress names. She's really just waiting for it. I can see where the developers have been "begging for it" for a while now. Obviously the lack of response on the Templar forums means they never read this forum, right? I mean, it's not like they could read it and just not say anything, right? Obviously we should goad them into giving us answers by calling them names and saying they should be fired. Yep, that'll get the answer we want, right?
Oh boy, you gotta do a lot better than that mr. Strawman. I am dying to hear any kind of answer from devs. As it is, I haven't heard even anything I dont want to hear. There has been zero posts about the devs plans for templars. PS. I generally ignore all the ranting and strawmen you do in the rest of you posts so dont bother for my account.
hehehehe too funny. k, let me parse this thread real fast... signal: 100[0] noise: 23434645645234234235677345[0] Seriously Kendricke, I think you take some of this stuff waaay to serious. Any positive, constructive message you may have gets completely lost in all that other stuff you dish out. =p
I think everyone in here just needs a hug .... come on everyone in on this...... HHHHHHUUUUUUUUUGGGG Now doesnt that feel better! It could be worse you could be a fury with all that AMAZING dps and average healing! ..... Just bait for the Fury trolls that i miss :smileytongue: they need to come here for a hug too!
Moderators are on the Dev Team. Raijinn has stated that he's taken concerns back to the rest of the team. You've received "an" answer, but not the answer you want to hear.
Worry not all Ken will be playing with himself soon . He can parse his threads and argue with himself :smileywink:
No. The problem is the Developers have posted NOTHING on these boards EVER that I can recall. Feel free to prove me wrong though. I KNOW they havent been around here since LU13.
So you mean that devs read only the posts someone reports for personal attacks or flaming? Or then 'information chain' is just broken between devs and moderators.
