Two and a half hours harvesting in T9... and not a single rare.

Dexilie@Mistmoore wrote:

No, it makes no sense, period.
I realize this is a fantasy game, but let's face it: the zones generally only have one node type, not a mix of node types.
If each zone had all node types, then yes it would make sense for some to be more rare, as in real life.
But since they are zone/level unique, it makes no sense whatsoever that a particular zone's rocks would be harder to pick up than another. There is no logical basis in the game at all for the increased rarity, as they don't use any kind of logical or real-life analog for it in the first place.
It is a totally artificial creation designed to favor time to do a mindless task over something that requires skill.
This is an MMO, a social game... so why is a primary mechanic of advancement based on time spent largely alone?

drakkenshield wrote:

First of all, MMOs are litterally nothing more than one time sink after another... remove them and you no longer have a game, you have an elaborate MSN alternative.
Second, between characters searching for rares for personal use, leveling up their harvesting, getting raws to level up their tradeskilling and getting raws to do writs for status, there are far more people harvesting in T9 than any other tier (probably more than in every other tier, though thats an assumption).
With all these harvesters, making T9 rares as common as they are in say T4 would simply see the market absolutly flooded with them.
Sometimes developers need to do things not to maintain the suspension of belief, not because it has a real world analogy, not even because its what players want: sometimes they need to do things for no reason other than to maintain balance, which in the case of rares is balance in the economy.

Pervis wrote:

So you're saying that they'd rather aggravate the living crap out of their player base by making it take so long to find a rare that it ticks them off and somehow they think this will keep people involved?
Thats completely idiotic. They likely just made a mistake with the coding making it rarer than they really thought it would be, or they didn't expect it to be so incredibly aggravating that it takes so long to get a rare.
They won't change it if we don't complain and there's no reason why finding a diamond would actually get harder the more experience you have in finding them. Just like there's no reason why finding a dinosaur bone is going to get more difficult after 20 years of experience in finding them in the field. Experience should make it easier, or at the very least, not change it very much.

MoiraesFate wrote:

DUDE! CHILL!
Honest to gawd! If harvesting annoys you, run city writs (or indisciminately slaughter stuff that's plentiful and barely green) in the T9 zones to get crap armor and Adept books.
Put these on the broker at 50g. The transmuters buy them - they fly out of the boxes! You will have enough money to BUY your rares easily.
I just harvest casually as I adventure. I sell EVERYTHING saleable on the broker. I have been earning at least 5p a day just questing and such. And I have bought probably 80% of all my rares for my CAs.

MoiraesFate wrote:

You have had a maximum of 50 skill points "finding diamonds". Finding lapis in T1 zones is exceptionally easy at 400 skill and even easier at 450. if you harvested in a T1 zone, you'll be practically tripping over the rares there.
Using your skate analogy: Kristie Yamaguchi can skate the simple forward circles round and roung very very very well 'cause those are the basics (like harvesting in T1 which at 400+ harvesting gets the most rares). She can even skate backwards in those same circles quite easily (harvesting in T2 at 400+ gets a lot of rares, not quite as many as T1 though). She's rather good at doing the single turn leaps (T3 with 400+ skill, not as many rares as T1 and T2 but still a significant amount) and her spins are faster and longer than less skilled skaters (T4 with 400+ gets a few less than T3). She almost never 'pops' a double turn leap into a single (T5 with 400+ skill gets fewer rares than T4) or a triple into a single (T6). She added some more flourishes lesser skilled skaters just don't have (T7) and can even do some quads (T8). She's even started doing backflips but only rarely and they get HUGE acclaim because they're so difficult to pull off (T9).
In harvesting, with the highest skill, harvesting in the lowest level areas will yeild you the most rares. That's the basic skill level and a 400+ skill vs a 40 trivial is a rather sizable difference. Each level area, though, increases the trivial amount which narrows that difference. You skill above the trivial amount gives you a higher chance to harvest a rare. Harvesting in T9 at 400 skill (max for T8) is NOT the same (and should never be the same) as 400 skill harvesting in T1.
It HAS been changed and improved, though. Back when Domino took over as tradeskill dev, even though we were on to T8, the skill level you had to be above the trivial for harvesting in an area was so high that with maxed T8 skill (400), you were either just barely on or hadn't yet reached the bonus table (where rares become more common) for T6. The point at which you start hitting that bonus table was decreased and the skill vs rare from lower levels to high increased the rate at the lower levels (following your hunting dino bones for 20 years concept).
Does this mean you should ALWAYS get a rare with minimum skill in an area after harvesting 2+ hours? no. Even if you have max skill and all sorts of skill boosters there is the RNG to contend with. With minimal skill for an area, you might get multiple rares in 2 hours (though none of them might be the specific one you want) or you might get none.

MoiraesFate wrote:

Yes.
In order for something to be truely valuable, there needs to be an amount of challenge or effort involved in obtaining it. To some people, challenge and effort are aggrivating. However, to these same people, the success of finially reaching their goal is just that little bit sweeter than it is for the rest of us, precisely because of that aggrivation.
Ask anyone that played EQ1 what their best memory of the game was, most of them will tell you it was when they finally reached a goal or overcame a hurdle that had caused them some form of grief. In most cases, it was not the goal itself that was so memrable, it was the fact that they had reached it, they had overcome that challenge (aka, aggrivation).
If you go out and harvest all your rares in 45 minutes, would you consider it an accomplishment? Is it something to be proud about? Is it even something to be happy about?
If those same rares took two weeks, instead of 45 minutes, then that is an accomplishment by virtually any players standard. That then becomes something to be happy about, something to be proud of.

Pervis wrote:

Instead of feeling the excitement of accomplishment I just felt frustrated. So I have opted to purchase my rares instead of spending countless hours running around clicking on stones.

Pervis wrote:

Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups! No one that I have known or do know who plays EQ2 has ever harvested all the rares they needed in 45 minutes, let alone 2 weeks! Just to harvest enough rares for expert spells has taken me 3 months. Some peeps I know - well, it takes even more and some a bit less. Some peeps enjoy the time spent harvesting as "quiet time" while others become very aggravated because it takes too long.
In lower tiers it doesn't take near as long to harvest rares for spells. My level 25 character harvested half of all of her T-3 rares in a week. I don't expect that rate to continue in higher tiers. Not only is she current for her level, but she's also progressing nicely on the harvest cloak quest at the same time.
What may be aggravating to one person isn't to another. For example, I can harvest for hours and hours and it doesn't bother me at all. Yet, someone else gets aggravated if they don't harvest a rare they need in 10 minutes!
So perhaps you are not aggravated by having to harvest rares over a two week timespan, other peeps will be aggravated if it takes longer than 45 minutes. Aggravation is measured subjectively, not objectively.
So to answer your rhetorical questions - yes, some peeps who harvest all their rares in 45 minutes would definately consider it an accomplishment - and are proud and happy they did so. To others it wouldn't make a hill of beans.
Yes, for some people if it takes 2 weeks to harvest those same rares, they might have quit harvesting long before those two weeks are up because anything more than 45 minutes just to harvest one rare is just way too much for them. So, no, they wouldn't be proud or happy that it took 2 weeks.
Remember - there are two operatives working here - of which neither are included in your presentation:
1. Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups!
2. Aggravation is measured subjectively, not objectively.

Pervis wrote:

Now don't exaggerate. I'm not asking for all of them in 45 minutes. I'm asking that it doesn't take me 5 hours to find a single rare. Yes, I like crafting. I find it relaxing. I like gathering. But there's "fun" and then there's "Nothing but a giant boring time sink". With T9, its become nothing but a "giant boring time sink". A couple hours is fine. FIVE or MORE is NOT.

I have been finding that harvesting gear makes a huge difference in my rare finding in SF. I have two max harvesting skill toons, both level 90 adventuring. Both have harvesting cloaks. One has the Far Seas palamino which gives something like a 25 harvest bonus (I could get her the unicorn but I prefer the look of the palamino ). She has an "ok" rare harvest rate, but not great. I spent one night harvesting for a couple of hours on her and got maybe 2 or 3 rares, not what I'd hoped for. For some reason I decided to try my other toon, who has the harvest cloak, the unicorn (has I think a 40 harvest bonus), plus she has the dwarven boots with an additional 20 or 25 harvest bonus. Boom, suddenly my rare rate skyrocketed. I got a good dozen rares in the same time I'd gotten 2 or 3 on the other toon. Now, was it the RNG just swinging my way, or was it the additional harvesting skill? Since then I've tested T9 with both toons and there definitely seems to be a significant increase on the toon with cloak/unicorn/boots over just the cloak/palamino, although I do get rares on both toons regularly enough in SF/SH. But if you haven't invested in a mount yet or haven't completed the harvest cloak quest, I definitely recommend them. It sure seems to make a significant different in T9 for me. I rarely come away from a 2-3 hours harvest run without close to a dozen assorted rares (although of course never enough eucalyptus, which is the only one I really care about lol -- need more wood nodes!).

If you really want to test - it needs to be done on one character. Add and remove harvesting items. Keep record over a period of a couple months or so to include number of hours harvested, number of items harvested and number of rares. You can go further in your testing by also indicating which items were harvested and which rares.
So your first test would be the one character with no addons for harvesting. Get a base.
Then add piece by piece and repeat test.
And that is how you do a statistical research in order to draw correct reference. Other than that it's strictly your luck of the draw and RNG for each character.
If you wish also to compare with another tier, you would need to repeat the same testings.
At the same time, I can say I have a character with all the harvesting ammenities except the unrest harvest addon, but I do have the brokenskull harvest boot, plus the AAs into harvesting and character traits. Yet, my RNG is a lot worse than yours, having to take 3 months to get enough rares for my expert spells. But then, I've harvested many a time without all the harvest addons because I was adventuring at the same time. My rate of rares actually increased.
YMWV without signifigant and accurate testing.

MoiraesFate wrote:

One rare is an insignificant sample size, as is five hours. It may kind of suck spending 5 hours looking for one rare, but then the next five nodes may give you five rares. Thats the nature of the RNG.
Short of adding a (easily exploitable) failsafe, there is nothing they can do that would not kill off the mastercrafted economy. Even if they did increase the drop rate of rares, there is nothing at all to prevent the RNG from still handing out another multi-hour session of no rares, followed by five from five. It would be less likely to happen, but it would still happen.
As has also been pointed out, there is gear avalible now that can tip the RNG in your favor. Your skill level for harvesting has a fairly decient effect on your chances to pull a rare. There are also parses avalible that you can post results from, that can tell people how many nodes you harvested, which type of node they are and how many raws you got of each type. These are the sort of thing that take your post from being "just another RNG complaint" to something potentially worth actually looking at - because right now this thread is about nothing more than a string of bad results from the RNG.

You had bad luck.
I overall have pretty good luck getting rares and the other weekend I harvested T9 for close to 8 hours and got 1 rare.
I went back the next day and got 26 rares in aprox 2.5 hours. I was busting on my guild saying the rare sound was getting annoying and asked if there any way to turn it off.

Not sure what the definition of "rare" is when it comes to the percentage of pulls but 2 nights ago I started running the ACT plugin for harvesting and got the following numbers.
Out of 869 nodes i got:
Karborite Cluster .58% of the time....
Ulterium Diamond .36% of the time....
Berellium Ore .12% of the time.....
Spotted Pelt 0% of the time....
All I harvested was craggy lairs, molten formations, and infused deposits.
Take the numbers for what they are worth.

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Heya Sharakari
Yea, that's a start - now - how much time did those 869 harvests take? What harvesting "tools" or "Gear" or "Potions" or "bonuses" were involved?
To have a base - remove all the harvest add-ons, then repeat those 869 harvests in X time frame. Then compare the numbers.
And that still doesn't take into account your RNG - to be even more accurate, perform the two tests on the same character during the same 24 hours without relogging or zoning or doing anything that could possibly reset your RNG which of course is an unknown factor.

Alvane@Unrest wrote:

Yeah..... these were just some numbers for the OP and others to look at. Like I said, I don't know what folks are looking for when it comes to rares. 1% of the time? 5% of the time? I know I get streaky. Some nights I get none. Other times I get 5-10. I don't really have a problem with the "rarity". I use my harvesting cloak and earring plus some gear from the TS instances that add +harvesting. Anything I can to increase my chances. I'm still trying to get the mount that has something like +20 to havesting.
Anyways, this thread is really just a gripe session. Rare is Rare and Luck is Luck. Take it for what it's worth.

You would have to harvest perhaps 1000 to 5000 nodes to really get a good statistical base.
However, based on what I have actually harvested in the past couple of weeks, spotted pelts seem to be a lot more rare than most, with tox roots being the most common (perhaps mainly because they drop from two node types).
I have not seen a really significant difference while harvesting with bonus gear, such as Ring of the Solstice etc. I believe that a while back Domino stated that it was only "a slight increase", but as far as I know SOE has never given out any real numbers.
My T9 harvester gets a much higher drop rate in t3 zones - but so does my T3 harvester. I suspect the drop rate, especially for the lower 5 zones, is much higher than the t6 to t9 zone nodes.

drakkenshield wrote:

ok then.. how do you want to make harvesting a rare "harder" without it being a timesink? I don't even harvest that much and I've collected enough t9 rares for my wiz, templar and monk.

Eveningsong wrote:

I have the harvest cloak and my char is using it. What unicorn and boots do you mean?

MoiraesFate wrote:

The Unicorn is bought on Island of Mara with the Far Seas Tokens you get from the TS instances. The boots she is talking about is a rare pattern that drops off the last guy in Unrest.... which is no-trade unfortunately.