Toxic Backlash still broken in PvP.

Cyst@Venekor wrote:

I don't get it. How can an assassin be a healer killer if you can kill them on your ungeared no myth templar, and tear them apart on your inquis?
So assassins are bad vs healers, but they can destroy dirges. Dirges do badly against assassins, but destroy healers. Healers struggle with dirges, but do very well against assassins.
HOLY GOD IS IT ME OR DOES THAT LOOK BALANCED?
Your class doesn't need to be able to handle all dps classes in pvp. That's broaching on unbalanced. Some classes should just be plain better at killing some classes than others.
And yes, we have a 7 second daze, with a little bit of damage at the end. Curable tho.

Paikis wrote:

Daze is a very wonderfull thing against classes with crazy autoattack.

Paikis wrote:

My interpretation is that if it is mitigated at all, except by other effects, temps, buffs, it's not doing what it says. It doesn't say "max minus 30-70%, depending", it says MAX. Think of that crow bar as the myth, but then when it procs it becomes a diamond encrusted crow bar being shot out of a particle accelerator. It doesn't matter what it hits, it's gonna bust it up.
Someone can probably find the maths on it (i dont remember it) but what you suggest it should be is more in line with making it a critical attack, not max damage. The concepts are similar, but different. Like I said before- it's a 1 of a kind item with a unique effect. Is it strong? Yes. Verging on OP? Maybe. Broken? NO! (except the bow shot part)
Oh, and since all healers have access to gear that has ridiculous mit (leather BP in soh with 598 mit anyone?) I imagine that dirges doing half their spike DPS means they won't kill any healers but the biggest nubs anymore. And forget killing tanks up close, we may as well resign ourselves to kiting them as the only viable option, and then pray we don't get justice cloaked. Mages and scouts? Good luck buddy. It'll be like back before mythicals, except everyone but you gets one.

Paikis wrote:

Dont give me this you and the devs crap. They said they are looking at it they didnt say why.

Paikis wrote:

???
I dont get to Ice Comet, why should Wizards.
I dont get to Null Caress, why should Warlocks.
I dont get to Charm, why should Troubadors.
Give me a break.
I am for modifying what it currently is capable of but you are just spouting nonsense.

Oh I get it... lol
Paikis wants the Dirge Myth changed into a crowbar..... hehe

Borias@Nagafen wrote:

Fire ANYTHING out of a particle accelerator and its going to break when it hits just about anything else. When was the last time you had to repair your epic just because you hit someone? You're right though. The proc does not say that it can be mitigated. It also does not say that it ignores mitigation. Nowhere on that proc does it even mention mitigation. You know what, no other proc anywhere else in the game says anything about ignoring mitigation either. And guess what... none of them do it. No other item in the game allows you to circumvent entire game mechanics. No other item does ANYTHING unless it specifically states that it has that effect.
As for you comment (posted above) about me having complained about Dirges before... you'll have to remind me when it was, heck go ahead and quote it for me, because I sure don't remember typing it out. I do remember lamenting that the proc on my troub's epic was complete garbage compared to the epicly huge one on the dirge's epic. But then, next to the Dirge proc, most mythicals aren't that great.

We are talking about Mythical weapons here not Epic.

Killque wrote:

In a game too even.

Killque wrote:

Then maybe we should make ALL Mythicals overpowered? That sounds logical.
The tag "Mythical" means squat.

Killque wrote:

No, you're putting words into my mouth.
Should we bring back un-nerfed bane warding? I mean seriously YOUR MYTHICAL IS INSANELY BROKEN AND NEEDS TO BE FIXED, JUST LIKE BANE WARDING NEEDED TO BE FIXED!! How can anyone deny the Dirge Mythical isn't insanely overpowered?
What I'm saying is that the weapon is so stupid, it requires ZERO SKILL for a Dirge to kill with it.

Borias@Nagafen wrote:

There is no way an Assassin can kill a GOOD dirge who gears properly. If you cure one ailment, or prevent it, you can't cure the other.. They cure daze, you apply fear, and you can kite an Assassin doing more damage from range than they can.
On my Assassin I killed most healers in 16 seconds, on my wifes Dirge I kill them as soon as the Mythical procs, so time varies. Both classes are healer killers.

Look, the Dirge Mythical needs fixed. It should not be ignoring mitigation, period.
If the class needs help, then get them to listen, and get help. But no piece of gear should be used as a balancing crutch, and while you're fighting to save your Mythical today, you won't have it when you're 90.

Borias@Nagafen wrote:

Just curious as to when the Bard became a true DPS class? I think NO one, and I repeat NO one should be able to do 9k damage in 1 second or 1 spell cast. A bunch of things need to be fixed in PVP, the Dirge myth has just caught the attention of the PVP dev. Next will be Crusaders, Enchanters, AND hopefully one shots.
I don't blame you though, no one wants to get their class nerfed, especially when they have a nice advantage. As for me I expect both my Paladin and Inquisitor to lose all of their current "DPS" in the class balance. You better brace yourself for the same, it was stated by a Dev that both Enchanters and Bards are getting their DPS and Utility/CC balanced out.

Cyst@Venekor wrote:

You say an assassin is a healer killer, except that your geared and ungeared cleric kills them np. Then you can kill them in 16 seconds.... which is it?
Then you say that you can destroy dirges as long as you have a fear pot, but then you say you simply cant kill a good dirge. Which is it?

Olihin wrote:

This arguement was over back on page 6. Enjoy your broken proc while you still have it.
And your continued statements of "A wizard can one shot people, why can't I?" are completely beside the point.
1. Dirges are not <insert single-target DPS class here>. They are a utility class who have been accidently given the ability to insta-gib anything they look at once their myth procs.
2. How does a wizard (or assasin, ranger etc) have anything to do with your proc? Wizards are MEANT to kill people fast, its what they do. Dirges are bards(utility), they're meant to buff their group and debuff their target.
3. The fact that you will be unable to kill certain classes once your myth gets fixed is, again, beside the point. In your own words, "not everyone should be able to kill all classes".
4. Killque this one's for you. The MYTHICAL tag is meaningless. I don't care if it has an ARTIFACT tag, its still bugged. Heck, it could have a TREASURED tag and it would STILL be bugged.
Trying to belabour the point with this talk of how asassins can kill healers is just dumb. It's like you're coming on here and saying "My cat eats fish for dinner, therefore, the Dirge epic proc is fine and intended."

Borias@Nagafen wrote:

Either I'm leaving words out when I type, or you're missing them. Let me try again.
My Assassin
I can kill dirges for one simple reason; many play horribly because they rely on their Mythical to do the work. They have forgotten how to use their other, more useful tools. While playing my Assassin, I was destroying many healers in 16 seconds, most of them geared better than I was.
My Inquisitor/ Templar
I was killing Assassins, destroying many of them actually. After playing the Assassin, and killing many of them as an Assassin, I realized many did not understand when, or when not to use their stealth attacks. Some of these long time Assassins didn't know their weapon procs (if you had the wrong ones) could break your stealth. HOWEVER, I was dying to scrub Dirges, in far worse gear, who were alts of others mains just because of the Mythical.
Playing my wifes Dirge
After playing two days on my wifes Dirge and seeing what I could do with the Mythical, ZERO SHARD GEAR, and still in RoK gear, it was beyond broke. I was killing healers rather easily if I timed my CAs (on top of Chime of Blades) with a Mythical proc.
This made me realize most Dirges are not even trying to be skilled. They're relying solely on thier Mythical.

Paikis wrote:

So your quote really doesn't prove anything. It says that it is reviewed, and there is a template. Nowhere in there does it say "will take mitigation into account starting GU 53" or "yes it's true, we really just do what paikis tells us to do" or "you're right, the dirge mythical is actually a crowbar", or anything else. It says that there is now a template. For all we know, it could make the top end lower, it could add pink sparkles, it could turn it into a shield. There is no way to know until it happens. And not to toss your theory too far into the drink, but they sure can change their idea at any time in the process. And it's probable (not guaranteed) that a change like this would have to be run by someones boss, who maybe you aren't in constant PM contact with and doesn't care for it, and ixnays it.
Dirges most certainly are single target DPS classes. We used to be a lot lower dps and utility, but at several points the eq2 gods decided that bards should have their dps increased. And voila. Maybe back at launch all dirges were for was buffs and debuffs, but no longer. The game changes. Time to wake up.
And yes, not everyone should be able to kill all classes. Any decent ranger barring stupid luck should tear up dirges. Well played assassins, brigands, and swashies should kill dirges fast enough before their mythical can even come into play. Paladins and SK's do just fine against dirges. I personally wouldn't want to stand toe to toe with a zerker either. Wizzie? With a lucky spell or 2 dirge wouldnt have a chance.
But dirges do just fine against healers. I consider it balanced if a class has troubles with some, and does very well against others. It's called the rock-paper-scissors effect. Healers do well against some classes, and not others. It's not the end of the world because 1 class in particular tends to mess you up and provides a very strong challenge. You don't see me coming to the boards crying because I can't run up to a shadowknight and expect to kill them.
But because you want your toons to not be killed by dirges, you're going on a crusade to nerf them. Not to mention the fact that you admittedly fought so terribly against one that you deserved to lose. That is not a justifiable reason to complain about class mechanics.

You are all clueless.

Borias@Nagafen wrote:

No but everyone else does, besides I have seen some dirges destroy well played Sks.

Dirges, are most certainly a utility based class that usually does more DPS than other scouts in PVP, with the proc of a myth, NOT by using CAs.