[TLE] Why pay to win?

Agreed. Vitality pots are not, in any way, required to level. My TLE toons are capped and I've never bought a vitality potion or run a 'grind group'.

Sorry, I did not realize I was supposed to play EverQuest like a cellphone game. Thank you for clarification.

Sign me up.

EQ2 isn't the first game to have paid advancement put into the game to temp inpatient people to buy into it. paying to advance a little quicker is not Pay 2 Win.

You know, I had a bit typed (you can believe or not, or just say "haha he quit! i must be right!", either way don't bother me, was hard enough for me to delete it, I am one that HAS to say his opinion, my very very bad curse, ask anyone I talk to regularly).

Go play the video game. Have fun, don't worry about others. This thread is now dead, so nothing to see here. While I didn't get heated over this, I hope no one else did by anything I might have said. If you did I apologize. No one is going to change their mind, no one is "delusional". Just because an opinion is not shared, it should not be a means to judge. And yes, its my opinion that its not, your opinion that it is. When I get slaughtered by someone who got gear I can never get (I don't pvp though), or being required to purchase gear unattainable otherwise to be able to do an advanced solo, I will join your side. Thats it on my end. That simple.

Sooooo, if you are on my server, lets all hug it out! Deal? Good.

Tell that to the fact that I haven't payed for EQ2 in around 5 years and have had membership until about 2 months ago.

I have earned literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of plat by being first to do.. everything. You're crazy if you don't think that helps perpetuate my ability to continue to be the first to do everything, and somehow doesn't provide an absurd advantage.

And I promise. Literally, statistically speaking, there are very few people who have "won" at this game as hard as I have. Thanks for the help, Vit pots. You made it possible on several occasions.

but how much is you present state down to your own effort? yes vitality makes leveling faster but the advantage you have isn't entirely dependent on vitality potions, anyone can buy vitality potions if they so choose, how many could use them and play in such a way to give them an advantage? hoe many others could buy those potions and not be in your position?

people who stick to the objective definition of F2P&P2W would call games like candy crush not P2W, on the other end are people that think anything that offers an advantage of any sort for money makes games P2W, they'll even use their own subjective meaning of 'winning' to try to claim that it really is P2W.

really those that scream any game with any sort of advantage small or not for money will say it's P2W and then use subjective meanings like 'winning' to push their point rather then objective ones.

EQ2 is not a race to the level cap, getting there faster is not winning, there is no trophy, no grand prize any plat, currency or items you earn are from your own efforts.

So 2 years buying game card codes and 3 years buying krono (released on Oct 29, 2012)?

I will honestly state that I have never been "first" at anything in EQ2. Heck, only started playing around 2011, so had quite a learning curve there.

Never risked getting scammed by buying a game card code, but also haven't paid a dime since krono came out. Sure, right now I only have enough to cover my account until the end of 2016, but I figure that's not too bad for someone who's never used what you call pay-to-win methods. Heck, I haven't even claimed most of the vit pots on live because I usually forget to use them, so they just end up using valuable storage space.

Oh, and BTW, tens of thousands of dollars worth of plat? There is no plat to $$ exchange since the Livegamer servers went away. Unless of course you're selling it on/to an illegal website.

You all are missing the truth, it is P2W.. for DBG!
DBG is the only one "winning" with people silly enough to PAY and race up in levels to sit around locked for the next pass vote. Instead of crying foul, you should be pointing and laughing at those that throw extra $$$ to help DBG win!

Me? I'm cheering from the sidelines every time someone throws "extra" money DBG's way. I've got my all-access, and they've gotten a good deal of money from me over the years. Why do I cheer? Because at the end of the day that's what lets them feed the gerbils and keep the game running for another day. I like this game. I'd like to keep playing it for a while. That means DBG needs to keep turning a profit. The more money they get, the better the game I get to play.

So, I look at it as _me_ winning. But I can be crazy like that sometimes.

My post was more satirical and not meant to be taken as an actual complaint. I just find it funny with the P2W posts and had to put in my 2 coppers
I do Agree, the more they spend on my game of choice, the longer it will be around (I hope!)

Effort? lol. It is a race. It's a race to level cap. It's a race to the end game content. It's a race to finishing the end game content. If you don't think a few day head start with a stock full of vitality potions gives you an advantage, you're wrong.

Knowing what plat is worth and selling it on illegal websites are two separate things. 2 years of buying game card codes, 3 years of buying krono, and all the while having enough plat left over to buy pretty much any LoN item I want, any SC item gift I want, and all of my masters instantly upon going up for sale.

Not all of that is strictly from being first, but I would have very little of it if I wasn't.

Not everybody thinks the game is a race. Many of us crazy people actually play the game to have fun and to play with our friends. And, no, I'm not just talking about people who don't ever get to cap. Most of my game play is at cap, and, while I enjoy getting discos, I'm not competing with anybody to get anywhere 'first'.

From your posts, YOU do play the game as a race.. and I suppose those like you would consider getting there 'first' winning. but when you 'win' at a game, you usually stop...so why do you keep playing if you've 'won'? That sounds like there are other reasons, even for you, to keep playing.. so it's not 'just' a race... even for you.

Gratz for doing nothing but gaming. You really think that's an "achievement"?

I suppose if I spent all day every day ingame I could claim the same. Maybe, probably not since I simply do not care that much about it. I look at it as a fun distraction, and if I can get the sub for free, yep, I will (buying krono).

lol lets deal with the facts....

for some winnin is to reach cap level first...

for others winnin is to achieve game goals....

who s right and who s wrong? no one .... but bein from the side that enjoys achievements more than race ( i still on level 28 on deathtoll only playin with my main )... doesnt matter how hard i try i just cant figure out WHY to reach cap level is winnin haha.... in fact i even despite it coz for me it feels the person aint realy playin the game.... but only tryin to complete a social task.

in servers like P99 you could consider that levelin is winnin.... but in eq 2 and others WOW style games this s so far from true...

Madent and a few others are missing the point though. Saying it is not pay to win for everyone, i get that, but it is still classed pay to win, pay to progress, wtf ever you want to call it is bs and TONS of customers have quit because of this.

TLE server for me and group of friends ruined (mostly, im still only one playing because I am an EQ fanboy) due 100% by VIT pots being pay to win. Very few people in their right mind would play on any server where 90% of the population uses VIT pots and level 10 times faster in every way. Something that takes another person 1 hour takes me TEN HOURS for the same amount of small xp.

If EVERYONE leveled slowly I would be absolutely fine. But the fact that MANY people play MMO to at least be competitive in some form or another is destroyed by duel wield credit card classes.

All these post from their customer base who dislikes ANY FORM of pay for advantages model are an attempt to get DBG to fix this issue for xp and TLE. This single model has lost them a majority of the TLE customer base.

I'm not a fan of the potions myself, but that aside, there were people who capped in a few days BEFORE they added the vit pots. In an older game where people know the 'tricks', there will always be some that race ahead.

I cam't even read most of Shaggy's wall of text because they're just the same thing over and over again. If you guys don't think that paying for something like a 600% increase in XP is pay to win then idk what to tell you anymore. We showed why it is and you guys are just too dumb to understand anything. That's fine if your play style isn't to level fast and I don't care if people use them as I have also. But there are benefits to being top level first there are 100s of reasons why levels matter. It just annoys me that you people are so dumb because you are the ones who influence this type of pay to win content and have turned MMOs into Facebook games.

No. You're dumb.

There. I have won this argument handily, I think.

Probably Seems people disrespecting others is the only way to try and win debates on opinions. Ahh well. I respect everyones opinion, including Calbiyum's. Its a good thing I say the same thing though, I mean, wouldn't it be bad if I messed up in my thoughts, saying something else that I wasn't saying before? Think everyone kinda stayed on the same thought processes throughout posts. Guess I will start changing my mind and add in stuff to make it sound cooler.

No. You showed your reasons for believing that it is, but that isn't the same thing. The big problem is that there is no official definition for pay-to-win, so everyone is free to make up a definition which supports their own biases.

To me, pay-to-win requires that all of the following three things be true: (1) that the item in question have a substantive effect upon game play, (b) that there be no way to obtain that effect except through purchase of the item, and (c) that there be no other item with a similar effect (even if that effect differs in scale) that may be obtained through gameplay. On TLE, #1 definitely is the case for both vitality and xp potions, and #3 will be the case until Age of Discovery is unlocked. However, #2 isn't the case for vitality or xp potions, since adventure vitality is regenerated during non-adventure related activities (similar to the way that tradeskill vitality is regenerated during non-tradeskill activities), and since experience may still be gained without having an xp potion active. (On live, only #1 is true, since /claim is available there and thus the pots from the vet rewards are available there.)

Keep in mind that this is my definition for pay-to-win, and in the absence of an authoritative source for a definition for pay-to-win, my definition is as valid for me as yours is for you. This doesn't make either of those definitions wrong, it just means that we have different biases.

This ties in to my previous post in this thread. Since you can't - and shouldn't even try to - control others' definitions of pay-to-win, the best way that you can reduce your frustration is to concentrate on your own gameplay. You be you, and let others be themselves. If you like the potions and don't mind buying them, then go for it. If you don't, then don't.

However, if you expect others not to argue with you, then you really can't state that it is pay-to-win - unless you explicitly indicate that it is merely your opinion. If your goal is to incite an argument, though, then by all means continue stating things as if they were objectively true.