- The reuse timer for Deathtoll now sets as soon as you enter.

Well done, thanks for your input.

Im guild leader of a guild that I would say is more a raid guild than anything else, but we certainly arent a Dissolution or an NPU.
We raid 3 or sometimes 4 days a week, far from hardcore.
In our 3 or 4 days we get stuff done, we are a capable guild. We quest and we raid and we enjoy doing both.
Currently we have labs and if we lucky a contested, the issues in this thread and others highlight a problem in T7 raiding from the most hardcore to the most casual.

Get it?


EDIT: Why in all these raid threads do people who obviously have no clue about what they are posting about continue to post?
Message Edited by Ellrin on 04-05-200603:46 PM

I'm curious. If KoS hadn't come out until May, and it had the extra two instanced raids (and maybe another, who knows) -- would everyone have been happy? Or would they be complaining about how boring T6 was becoming?

Why? Because there isn't enough to do. From your post it seems pretty clear to me that you have not raided Temple of Scale or Ascent of the Awakened and I dont know what lower HoF is, but I am pretty positive there are no raid mobs anywhere in HoF. Now there is that crystal at the bottom, but I haven't heard any talk about it and don't know what it does. I actually personally have not gotten very far into T7 raiding, but it isn't hard to see that once we do we will run out of stuff to do and have to beat up on T6 stuff or something. ToS and Ascent are not something you raid every night for loot, they are like Silent City in T6, how many guilds raided Silent City after the 2nd FoL trip? I am betting not many. These zones are buggy, rarely drop anything good, and are downright boring. Not to mention the fact that they are contested and if you aren't a hardcore raiding guild it is doubtful you will ever get a crack at the mobs that you need to access Deathtoll.

They are worse. Ascent is the worst zone EVER.

Hello all!

I've read through this and many other threads on raiding and the lack thereof so I want to address some points I have seen.

First and foremost, however, let me note that I have not raided in EQ2. I have raided excessively in EQ1 for 4+ years (first 2 years of EQ1 I didn't do a lot of raiding for various reasons). This shouldn't be too big an issue since I'm not arguing for or against any specific raids. Basically, flame me for my ideas, not my experience!


"EQ2 is NOT a hardcore raiding game!"

My question is: why not? Neither was EQ1 at its induction and now look at it. Furthermore, EQ2 seems to have MORE raid content than EQ1 did even 2 expansions in. Really, the ONLY thing I can think of to call this a "non-hardcore" raiding game is the fact that I haven't heard meantion any extensive "key" quests needed to get into the various raiding zones such as Veeshan's Peak and ToV (but I could be wrong, if there are such quests, then that supports my claim of 'why not' even more!).

It also has a TON more epic quests that require raids than EQ1 did even up to and including PoP in my opinion. Most of EQ1 raids were designed to simply kill mob x get loot drops a,b,c, it was not nearly as quest intensive as EQ2 is now, and, thus, not nearly as many raid quests (only epics up to 2 expansions in come to mind).

There are also a TON of more raids for lower level characters than there EVER WERE in Everquest 1 even >>>8? expansions in now.

"Content in new expansions should be balanced for solo/group/raid"

My question is: why? Think of it this way. Once you are level 70 with 50 aa at the moment, you have two options: Craft (some are 70/70 so that negates this option) which is definitely not for everyone or do old quests with NO progress or awards associated with them that will help you in any way whatsoever. If neither looks appealing you can 1.) Play an alt (which many do), 2.) Raid.

Once you have hit 70 with 50 or 70/70 with 50 there is no reason to keep grouping except to help someone out which eventually becomes moot because all your friends get 70 with 50 and there certainly is no real reason to solo.

By definition the "hardcore" gamers will get through content faster, meaning there should be an overbalance for them in new expansions, period. I am no longer a hardcore gamer, but I will advocate this for that very reason. 2 expansions in I'm still on old world content, I simply don't get bored as quickly because I don't go through the stuff nearly as quickly.


"Add more raids!"

This needs to be carefully done. In my opinion, PoP was both the greatest expansion in EQLive and the start of its downfall. Here's my point. New raids can be added without causing old raids to become obsolete. I firmly believe that new expansions should focus on adding more CHALLENGING raids. By definition, these can also be more REWARDING. However, PoP added to EQLive raids that would yield uncommonly good results without being nearly as challenging as previous content. Result? Old content was abandoned. If you want a game to continue to grow healthily and continuously feel like there is enough stuff for your players to do, do NOT obsolete old raids. If you feel they don't yield rewards or are too challenging, tweak them... don't simply add new raids that will make fixing them irrelevent. I want to be able to still go and kill KoS raid mobs and feel like I've been properly rewarded 2 more years from now.

This, however, is tricky. The raids will become trivial simply because characters will become better. My saying is that they should not become trivial through ITEMIZATION but rather through character PROGRESSION. Because the characters are higher level and have more customizations than they did 2 years ago. THAT is why raids should go trivial. If I'm level 70 in a raiding guild 2 years from now and the average level is also level 70 then I want KOS raids to still be a viable and worthy option for me. Period.

Although doing and maintaining this will be hard, it will be more rewarding from two standpoints: 1.) Old players can play new characters on new servers without feeling they need to "power level" to level 170 because thats where all the good content is. 2.) NEW PLAYERS WILL STILL BE COMING INTO THE GAME. The problem with EQLive is that its too geared to the level 70s. This isn't because thats where all the content is, its because, simply, thats the only content thats worth attempting (because PoP obsoleted EVERY expansion before it).

In short: Please don't add content that obsoletes previous content beyond for levels higher than that content was intended for (Level 50 content should still look good for level 50 characters, it doens't need to look good for level 70 characters, though).

[Edit] I suck at grammar and spelling [/Edit]
Message Edited by Serendia on 04-05-200608:53 AM
Message Edited by Serendia on 04-05-200608:55 AM

If this new raid instance is a 6 day timer it just shows have no clue what people want.

What is going to me the timer on this zone? I'm sure everyone wants to know this...

Contested still means it's content that is there though. If you don't like contested though keep in mind it isn't a raid problem and is actually a game wide issue. (because those dungeons I listed are contested for groups too) If you want contested changed into instanced it would be better to take the stand of instancing group and raid content, because as much as some raiders dislike competition there are groups that dislike the competition in group dungeons too.

Give us a break, will you? It's this condescending, patronizing, and unconcerned attitude that's driving people away from the game. This is a thread about a RAID zone, like the numerous other threads about the lack of (T7) raid content in the game. Your claims of innocence because he didn't initially say "raid" content ring false. You might as well have flagged your comments with /sarcasm/ or /innocent smiley/ tags.

Or maybe you're just not listening to what your playerbase is telling you, be they hardcore or casual raiders -- which would actually be worse. You're the community manager, right? Isn't it your job to listen to what the players are saying?

Ok, let's count the number of contested raid mobs that we're all so stupidly discounting. (Which has also been discussed in length here: Raids, and where has all the content gone? )

Hurricanus, 3 Princes, Harla Dar, Mutagenic Outcast. These (except the Outcast) die as soon as they pop on most servers. That said ... they are also fun encounters. We need more like them.

The other Temple of Scale mobs (Pantrilla, Vraskin, etc.) also die as soon as they pop, but they are also easy, with crappy loot. You have to kill trash to get to them, but at least it not annoying trash like ...

Ascent of the Awakened (Talendor, Gorenaire, etc.) is Silent City 2.0. Raiders will not go here after Deathtoll access because the zone is mindnumbingly boring. Farming mobs with insane health for random drops to spawn names is not fun.

The Deathless and the Ravasect isle cube. Give me a break. These mobs can and are killed with one group, as soon as they pop. That includes Ghazi. They are a joke.

If ALL of these mobs popped on the same day, we could kill them all in a couple hours.

I’ve read this post a few times now, and didn’t initially want to post, however some of you have the blinders on so tight you can’t even take a step back to realize there are good things. Also, unless you’re NPU you shouldn’t be complaining about lack of raid content claiming you’ve beaten it all (as you haven’t beaten Mutagenic, and has anyone cleared Deathtoll (NPU you don’t count you got in too early and probably faced a easier zone ). That said, I think most in the raiding community would love to see more 18 hour lockout 1-2 named mobs zones like we had in T5 but here’s the funny thing, what did we ask for with t6 raids?
We wanted more SotL type raids, and SOE gave us them in DoF – yet you people found reasons to *****.
There wasn’t enough contested mobs in DoF so SOE gave us a lot more “contested” content – yet you people found reasons to *****.
There aren’t enough short lockout zones for us to do.
Do you see the circle?
Nothing these people do is EVER good enough for you guys. It’s always “not enough content” or “this mob’s too hard” or “this zone’s to easy” or “this item ______ [be it not worth the risk, is too uber for the risk, etc)”
A poster a few posts up asked the question:
“I'm curious. If KoS hadn't come out until May, and it had the extra two instanced raids (and maybe another, who knows) -- would everyone have been happy? Or would they be complaining about how boring T6 was becoming?” ---- I’m pretty sure, had we had to wait 2 more months for new raid content the same people would have been *****ing about lack of T6 raid content (I mean why not, we did it at the end of T5 about how there was no new content and all the t5 content was easy and boring)

In the end, voice your criticism, but do it in a constructive way, Elrohn did a wonderful job in his post “Raids, and where has all the content gone. Where is it…” however that post has been pulled off topic, pushed back on, with all of the different rants of people.
Also remember, T5 had a lot of stuff added after the fact, in T6 DMP and PoS weren’t working properly at the start, so give KoS a bit longer before you run around screaming that the sky is falling.

If this is not a hardcore raiding game, why does PP:R exist? Do the devs expect casual raiders to beat it? Do they expect casual raiders to beat Pedastal of the Sky? Do they expect casual raiders to beat The Djinn Master's Palace?

Im sure by now that NPU has cleared Deathtoll "legitimately" and I know of quite a few other guilds with access who should clear it soon.

I dont think I can say I was ever out of things to raid in DoF. The content was much more challenging and you could easily spend 3hrs trying to take a contested (tree doesn't count lol). When we were locked out of all the raid zones, there was still Silent City and although we hated it, gotta get people their prismatics. In KoS, we haven't gotten fully into the raiding, but right now it is only Labs that we do once a week. I think the leadership is waiting for people to get progressed in the quests. Now, the biggest problem I have with KoS, is most of the content seems pretty unchallenging. Guilds in DoF that couldn't even clear the 1st floor of PP:R or get past the Trade Court in Gates have already gotten all the way to Vymme. I haven't done Ascent yet mainly cause of the questing, but it doesn't sound to difficult, Harla is not that hard if you bring the right resists since she can't even hit you hardly. Can't even count the monoliths. If stuff was maybe a bit more challenging people wouldn't complain so much.
If you read this post http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=zones&message.id=8370 you will see very clearly that the amount of raid content has been decreasing steadily from launch to launch. Tiers 1-5, always something to do even if it got pretty easy, we had plenty to do every night. DoF, I think even the top guilds will agree there was still quite a bit to do even if it was pretty easy for them. Gates, PP:R, and Courts still took several hours no matter how good you were, only 4 guilds ever beat DMP, but Im sure a lot of people spent hours in there trying. You could spend days farming eyes for hours no matter how boring and FoL wasn't a complete pushover.
KoS, there is pitiful amount to do from night to night. Since most guilds don't have Deathtoll access thats 1 raid zone a week they have to do. 1. No one is going to want to do ToS or Ascent for the rest of the week and for the most part only a few guilds are going to be killing contested because they can and don't allow anyone else a shot, which is why its contested, but I am fairly certain the majority of us won't get to do contested for quite sometime. Even if you get Deathtoll access it looks like a fairly small zone from the map and appears to only have like 4 named, I don't know how tough they are going to be, but 4 named won't last long once you figure em out. I am looking forward to the Lyceum just cause it is something else to do. Spose we could go back and raid DoF some more.

Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on 04-05-200610:37 AM

im sorry you didnt infer that i was speaking about raids, since i was posting in a thread that main focus was a raid zone.
hoopdee

Who'd a thunk it???? A complaint about raid content, in a thread about a raid zone?

What a joy to see the only answer so far to all these threads has been one snarky comeback to a comment taken completely out of context.

I know there is a lot of contested content in KoS, but to be honest, the vast majority of the server populations will never even get a shot at it when they have high-end guilds that have scouts up 24/7 waiting for the contested encounters to be up.

I know on my server that although our guild is quite capable of taking down contested mobs, we never got a shot at any of the T6 mobs. Why? Because 1-2 guilds simply dominate the contested. I remember seeing Terrorantula pop and within 15 minutes the high-end raiding guild on our server was fully assembled and brought it down.

Adding a bunch of contested content and saying their is plenty for guilds to do is wrong if you ask me. You get a couple guilds like that and 99.9% of the server population will never have a chance to kill those contested.

I realize that SOE likes to promote a bit of competition, but after seeing this happen time and time again and all the contested being dominated by one particular guild, I really have come to hate contested raid content. Unlike these guilds, we do not have the entire guild oncall 24/7 ready to move the second a contested pops. Everyone on my guild has a real life job and we have to plan our raid times during the week. In KoS we have very little to do because of it. We need more instanced areas so that we can actually plan our raid time and have something fun to do during it.

And, no, pharming eyes in Silent City or the drops in AotW is not what I call fun.

Just my 2 cents.

I totaly agree with Ishbu here. I am not in a hardcore raid guild altho we could and would raid every night if there was a target to hit. But, we are not the best on the server where it comes to raids, we dont have the numbers to compete with contested 99% of the time. That leaves us with 1 raid (Vyemm) We do this on a saturday...then what? we are left with a zone that people ninja log or dont log on at all when the zone is mentioned (Ascent of awakened)
Deathtoll is not in our grasp when the mobs to get there are contested and they are dead before we can even log in...so we are left with ONE raid to do. Really crazy and not enough to keep people active, we have lost i think 4 people in the last week and a half..others are not logging in and i fear we will lose them soon also.

too bad i can't put koenig on forum ignor, EC is getting a bad rep for poor posts

it's the fact that there was only SOL type raids in dof and no daily raids to give players SOMETHING To do to keep them content while locked out of the bigger stuff, and the contestables, while the quality is fine, but the quantity is lacking soooo badly. and it's not just that there's a problem, it's that SOE really doesn't seem to be seeing it, which means that this isnt going to get adressed before a massive amount of players quit

From reading the thread, I have to aggree that the raid community can find it hard to do stuff unless they are in the top 1 percent of the raid guilds in the 10 or possibly even 20% (just a guess and probably way over the actual nr's but I am in a decent mood tonight and am giving the raid community the benefit of the doubt concerning their actual numbers) of the EQ2 players. I see the hardcore scouts out at contested mobs when I play from midnight to 0500 CST US. Hopefully they are not using some sort of bot program to alert them to a mob pop while they sleep but I can believe the statements about the hardcore raiders getting the contested mobs.
On the positive side for raiders though, at least they have some challenging content that gives good rewards. Groups don't. Once people who don't raid hit 70/70 and have gotten all the semi-decent legendary drops they want, they have no endgame at all. If all the normal instances and dungeons are really good as an endgame for groups as I have seen hardcore raiders say in other threads, then the raiders would have no reason to complain except where the challenge and reward of a zone/mob is not truly of endgame standards and they have to do them with only 5 friends and no backup for when someone dies instead of the normal 23 friends with several backups for everyone but possibly the tank. You would just break down into 4 groups and do the group endgame and still have the same lvl of challenge and rewards.
Inconclusion, think positive. They are making more raid zones and you will always be better treated then those who dont raid. As an alcy I will make a batch of chemicals a jeweler can use to lighten the tint on your glasses. Looking through those very heavily tinted glasses that you wear because you are such a cool raider indoors will sooner or later make you start having dark thoughts. Wait, those of us who craft can't make nice stuff like dyes ect and raiders got all our T7 rare products nerfed. Oh well, this last little paragraph is just a poor attempt at humor anyway. The EQ2 world is not ending anytime soon with or without any group endgame content, more raid content, and nerfed crafters. At least they are giving you 2 new bones to chew on. They love you more then then crafters and the majority of EQ2 players.
Edited to change the last line slightly.
Be happy with with that but it never hurts to give polite, constructive, and logical inputs to make the game better.
Message Edited by Oakum on 04-05-200608:51 PM

Blackguard already explained that LU22 will bring a new instanced raid zone for 70+ (as was mentioned in prior threads). He also mentioned the raid zone that will go live with LU23 for 70+.

What is it that people want to hear? This team already puts out pound-for-pound more content than any other I've seen in my not-so-inconsiderable MMO experience. I think complaints are misplaced at this point. There are things that can be done to alleviate issues with 70+ raiding, but solutions to those issues take time. Unfortunately, the exact opposite complaints are levelled against us when content has a few kinks to be worked out after it goes Live, so really it's a no-win situation.

There's a lot to do in EQ2. More than one person will feasably be able to accomplish in any sane amount of gaming time. Taking only a single part of that content and saying, 'There's not enough of X for me to do. Fix it.' isn't really a valid statement for us to consider as a whole. We have to consider content addition for solo, group and raid playstyles, not just one of those. So if you choose to only take part in one, then you're going to have to expect that there isn't going to be as much content. It boils down to basic math:

EQ2 content is a combination of solo, group, raid & tradeskill playstyles.

If you choose to subtract three of those content groups, then obviously you're going to have "less content".

So, to wrap it all up:

• Yes, there is more raid content coming (HOORAYYYY!).
• No, we can't only focus on raid content, because to do so excludes a large number of our players. And we <3 you all equally. (Except for maybe Hoopdee... JUST KIDDING!)
  
• Yes, we want to add more content (not just for raiders, but for everybody)! Contrary to popular belief, we haven't found a way to slow down time yet, and there are only a limited number of hours in a day.
• No, you can't pester or poke me about anything I've said here or previously at Fan Faire this weekend. I'll be busy slaving away making sure your next new shiny raid zone is pretty and happy when you get ahold of it. All work and no play for Ilucide.

EQ2 was originally promoted heavily as a casual-friendly game, suitable for solo, small group and group play, with some raiding. I remember this very clearly because of the discussions that we had in my EQ1 family guild during EQ2 beta. We were a non-raiding guild in EQ1 and almost the entire guild moved to EQ2 precisely because it was perceived as being a game where raiding would form only a small part of the content.

In my opinion, raiding already forms far too big a part of EQ2. The game has developed rather differently from how it was originally promoted, and most of the changes I very much approve of, but the growth of the raiding side is a big negative for me, in that I can already see the same draining of resources that blighted EQ. The most hardcore players like to raid, and they push for development in their specialist area. They drive up expectations for gear etc. all round, link equipment that tends to make some players disatisfied with waht they have, and generally we end up in the space that EQ occupies, where there is an end-game and the end-game is a raid guild raiding 5- 7 days a week.

SoE already has a hardcore raid game, generally recognised as the best in the genre. It's EQ. I don't think we need a copy of that here.

I disagree. If they can provide the best content in all the major areas (solo, group, raid and tradeskilling) why not do so?
Why shouldn't EQ1 players be able to switch to EQ2 "because they want EQ1 with better graphics"?
I think SoE should shut down EQ1 and put that design team on EQ2 instead.