The real difference in Priests (at least the way is was and should be...)

Bah - percentage proc heals like GoC, which because of the "lucky socks" principle seems to work best on scouts, the Mark line, and Curate are not solid utility. If you are gonna compare apples to oranges - lets do this shall we?

Do your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SoWs, DS, Slows, etc. have a chance to proc?

Yeah - thats what I thought. They give us the edge, but even if you are a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] canny player, relying on those heals, like you would other utility like ds and slows would be suicide. Its apples and orages I say - they should drop the proc rate. Thats utility, not a crappy crap-shoot. You follow? For the purpose they serve, they are not dependable. As far as dps goes, we all know that the priests, especially templars need a boost. Come on - a 300pt DD at 51? What were they smoking? My pali can proc, like our "utility", two-thirds of that at 38.

Thats two bits worth - to hell with two cents.

Lates.

And that means exactly what? One 'heals' by preventing damage, one by healing right after damage and one over time after damage is taken. By definitions, all ways are equal. So how many aspects do you believe there is for a healer? Many say there is only one (=healing) since we are not meant to solo. Thus they justify their twisted view of how dps should be divided by name of the class. And in the next sentence they are 'no, of course the name of the class should mean nothing in how well the class heals'. Go figure.

All right, how is this: IF A FURY WANTS TO HEAL LIKE TEMPLAR; THEY SHOULD HAVE AS LOW DPS AS TEMPLAR
Now you did hit the mark, we want templars to have the same dps as furies have. What you missed is that this is templar board, so other classes are irrelevant here. I am sure they all want fury dps. But that demand should and will be made in their own boards, not in templar board nor in fury board.

So in fact, you are only undermining furies, not posting anything constructive. You are also flaming. And trolling.

Also its bs fury and warden dps isnt far off from eachother.
Also furies dont heal equal as templars that same old if furies want to heal like templars templars should do dps like a fury is so stupid.
Furies dont heal like templar you have other sec abilities our sec abilities are all in the dmg dept. how would you balance that?
A fury with all the dmg enhancing balanced dps wise to a templar (the most def of priests), dont you see how insane that is?!
I guess not as some are on that 1 track mind of everyone heals equal so we need to do equal dps, thats so shortsighted that its really getting on my nerves
why do we always have to keep explaining it to you guys Im getting tired of it.
Make your own mind up for a change instead as running after each other like sheep.
If something is broken, like some spells are not working as intended try and get that fixed instead of whining that class a has more dps while you seem to forget that class b clearly has something over class a (but please base your opinion off of someone who has a lvl 25 alt or has "seen" a fury in action geez).
You can think of kendricke as a fanboi or something else but at least hes showing how he would like the spells that arent that hot be fixed and is trying to collect at least some data instead of running around posting bs on other classes.
Message Edited by quetzaqotl on 11-12-2005 02:14 AM

Ahhh! My Arch Nemesis Quetzqotl!
Matter of fact Furies can heal as good as a templar...I grouped with one a few nights ago. I must say his DPS was outstanding, he had no problem at all soloing. We poped in a group together and he also healed the MT very well almost as good as me..it took him more power BUT he still healed as good. Now i say he healed AS GOOD as me not better then me but AS GOOD.
Now all Templars are asking is can our DPS be AS GOOD as furies not better but AS GOOD??...is that really to much to ask. To get a simple boost to our attack spells so we can deal some dmg? Furies got a boost to their heals to keep up so how come we can't get a boost to keep up? I can't believe that its totally fair you get a boost to better group healers and we can't DPS boost to become better soloers...
Scared of us maybe?? =P

I like the current healing balance. I am fine with groups being able to do most content with any priest class. I have never been passed over for a fury or a shammy for key simple reasons:
1) My spells are Adept 3 or better
2) Ive grouped with Shammies and Furies and given them the main healer spot only to see thier mana shoot down like a shot, where as If im the main healer my mana is level and doesnt run down as fast
3) I can cast a reactive or pre-heal while the tank is pulling a hard named mob and be able to take the AE and a couple of punches because im in plate. Druids and Shammies end up in the low orange and waste mana getting themselves back up.
The healing aspect I see as divided with Inqs and Temps coming out a little bit ahead because of gear availability. What needs to be fixed is Utility and DPS, although odyessey is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cool, perhaps against our classic undead enemy? Remember Invise to Undead? and all our DPS nukes are divine magic and should do extra undead damage not just 1 line.

Yes thats what I mean healing isnt equal if healing is equal then what does your sec (/utility) ability do?? nothing?
Yes all healers can keep a group alive now and in nomal situations the encounters arent that hard to notice a big difference in healing , but when you go to more challenging content the difference you can notice.
Extra healing isnt always needed thats true but that doesnt mean all healers now can heal the same templars still have an edge in that dept.
If you feel you dont have an edge in healing why dont you try and get your sec abilities fixed if they are so broken that noone notices it?!
Ive got some templar buddies who dont like the game that much anymore can see they'd like to solo faster you can say they chose the most defensive class so they shouldve know soloing isnt a templars speciality but yeah that would be a crappy thing to say, sure add stuff like some solo buffs or something k cool make templars ok for soloing sure (hammerpet dmg shield whatever) however you should know that increasing dps is a furies' territory asking for our sec ability is kinda strange as I d think almost all of you asked to be the "best" as in purest healer there is and you still are (maybe some spells are broken etc but why is it so hard to see which spells are broken? I mean I dont read every thread here but any constructive thread is buried under a lot of these bs threads with people saying "class A is sooo cool we suck" hmmm k... so what now??
Maybe make a list of spells that suck explain why they suck and how soe can make em not suck or something instead of posting all this noise.
oh btw I forgot to say in my previous post not sure who said it that I was advocating equal healing before, well I didnt advocate equal healing I wouldve liked my class to be more dps than healer at first must say I love my class now but I chose my class to be something of a punisher from nature (was in class description: controls the fiercest forces of nature or something lol man at first I thought we would get pets or summon wolves/bears or change in animals with diff abilities that was 1 year ago btw, I chose my class to do dps and heal must say it didnt turn out the way I envisioned a fury were healers first now and do +add some dps Id have np tho if they would cut down my healing and boosted my dmg more, leaving the healing tree a bit but thats just cause I always play druids/wizards in rpgs I love doing dmg and nature stuff heh).
Im happy with my class now yeah sure I am I can solo heal quite easily compared to before (in most circumstances) and do big number (but slow!) dmg love big orange numbers.
Personally I wouldve liked it even better if we wouldve gone more offensively after lu13 but thats just me.
Yesterday on a raid (deserted mine in zek: big groups: a fury's speciality) magic buffed my int to max and with the purple (troubadour)buff (you know it and love it) and doing no healing I did 420 dps so that was my max raid buffed going all out I didnt outdmg the big boys in dmg and its not accurate to say furies can squeeze that out easily I was spamming my dmg spells (well spamming with a long recast isnt exactly spamming but ok) and got hit with the purple buff of glory and did that number and did 420 dps.
That doesnt say that furies do 420 and templars do 70 its wrong and you know it, exaggarations dont help anyone so pls stick to some truth please.
One thinhg I still dont understand is why arent you guys comparing yourself with inquisitors instead of comparing yourself with a druid/fury?
I at least know some inq's that are enjoying themselves what did soe do good with them and not with you guys, I mean you both are clerics?!
Message Edited by quetzaqotl on 11-12-2005 08:39 AM

Yes, it is wrong to ask to have dps just like a fury, you may not like it but you have 60% more armor choices out there. That's the reason for your dps, not only that you're oriented defensively. Not to say you don't need something to make you solo better as you shouldn't have to deal with as many interrupts as you do by any means. But the fact is, this game orients dps partly by armor selections avaiable. By restricting myself to leather & cloth I'm lucky to hit 260 WIS self buffed at 60. I get agro--I'm rather squishy. Therein lies a significant advantage while grouping --gearing yourself to however you'd like with as much int/power/procs/effects etc without a second thought and not always having to wait around for an armor drop that's relatively rare because of armor rrestrictions . When you get agro on a big mob, you don't get knocked into next week and subsequently watch your group die cuz you got 3-4 stray hits/arts/nukes. Unfortunately right now that same advantage makes soloing a huge pain in the butt.

Like it or not, one of the biggest things that holds true in EQ2 is that you give up something to get another.

Mages give up virtually all armor for dps and that is further altered (at least so it seems) by AOE or single target speciality.
Scouts give up lots of utility instead of armor to get higher dps but not generally as high as a mage (as they can still wear up to chain), dps is further altered by defensive/offensive orientation.
Fighters give up dps in favor of armor, but are oriented as such that the brawlers do more dps due to restrictions on gear and dps is altered on defensive/offensive orientation.
Priests give up dps for utility and healing, and dps is oriented by armor type and defensive/offensive orientation.

When I got my INT down to 10, my nuke hit for about 700-1000. Cut it in half to make it look more like other priest's big nukes -- 350-500, and with the worst efficiency and greatest variance to boot as illustrated by this thread: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4644. Against single target... There's a 14% to 39% dps variance between minimum and maximum dps on both classes full burn not interrupted, and at 225 INT with adept 1s. Furies on average on single target are 27% higher on dps than templars on full burn w/o including HO's. All depending on whether or not it lands for full or minimum, assuming everything lands (furies can't debuff their resists). Nor does this include templar's divine debuffs, nor does it include that elementals make up maybe 5% of the game tops and undead make up I'd estimate about 20-25% (just depends on where you are, stormhold, nek castle, half of varsoon's, over half of living tombs and silent city, prolly a quarter of stinking sands etc).

Single target dps nukes/dots w/ adept1s w/ 225 INT:
Fury dps: 150-204
Templar dps: 130 - 156

But I'm not saying templars shouldn't get a dps boost to help with soloing. I think something needs to be done with the armor or classes so that you're not constantly interrupted when you do solo and probably a slight boost. Maybe shortening nuke cast-times to 1s would make them more viable to you. However, I can soundly say you shouldn't be able to nuke like a fury until you have to give up 60% of your armor choices and somehow out out of the defensive orientation.

I'm thinking the bottom line though-- if dps is what you're wanting, templar isn't the class you're wanting. They're entirely too oriented on group augmentation and healing that likely soloing will always be slow. They can make groups shine like no other and often allow for more difficult encounters and provide a larger safety net. But solo they're likely going to continue to be bottom of the barrell. However, it also needs to be realized that most of the other priests aren't leaps and bounds ahead of templar in dps. The sky isn't falling, furies don't do l337 massive dps. A lot of what you see is taken well out of context or in some cases, people stacking the cards in a parse that doesn't tell you even half a story.

Message Edited by Dalcharis on 11-12-2005 09:35 AM
Message Edited by Dalcharis on 11-12-2005 09:36 AM
Message Edited by Dalcharis on 11-12-2005 09:42 AM

......ROFL! :smileyvery-happy: Templars do have a sense of humor =D. /laugh

Debuffs always have a chance to be resisted.

Additionally, as mob level increased beyond your healers - DPS, debuffs and other mob targetted abilities become increasingly more resisted. Thus, buffs are inherently more useful, if all other things are equal.

A resisted debuff is more detrimental than a GoC that didn't proc yet, in my books. Additionally, most debuffs are melee based and give little help when the mob is a caster.

Plus, as a Defiler, I have many spells that are based on procs, both debuffs or buffs - one main line that goes on the tank is a reverse proc that lowers attack speed and dps of mobs attacking him. It used to be 5% proc but has been increased to 8% recently. The reverse proc ward debuff functions much the same way. They are still very powerful abilities that I would not go without.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love my debuffs, but I disagree with your assessment.
Message Edited by Sokolov on 11-12-2005 12:20 PM

I haven't been able to read through the entire thread, but wanted to pitch in as a frustrated templar with two issues.

1. I don't see the big deal about making clerics (temps / inqu's) the main healers of groups. I'm not saying make it as lopsided as EQ1, but we *should* be the main healers, and we *should* be able to keep an entire group alive without a backup healer, which isn't very easy especially with the changes (i'll get to that in a min). Players give up a bit to play a cleric. I'm not sure on the druid or shaman list, but clerics don't get spells like sow, root, invisi, etc, and have some of the worst DPS in the game. We're meant to heal and that is why many chose the class.

I don't mind shamans or druids being able to keep groups alive without clerics, but make it in their own ways like you do tanks. Warriors are pretty much the beef. They have a lot of HPs, heavy armor and can take a pounding. A monk can MT for a group, but he does it in a different way. He has fewer HPs and weaker armor, but has much higher AGI so is hit much less. Pally's and SK's have a mix of armor + spells which allow them to tank for groups as well. As a healer, I have no problem with any one of those classes as the MT because they're all good in their own way. Why can't it be the same with healers? Why is SOE so scared to give 'pure' healers more power in their strength? Let Shamans and Druids keep groups alive in their own ways with a combo of heals + util spells like slows, regens, etc. Keep clerics as the guys who keep groups with the only thing they really have, heals. Just make the heals a little stronger than the other guys.

2. This is slightly OT, not really though. This possibly goes for all healers, but definitely templars of the 30ish levels. What is up with the lousy heal spells now? I cancelled my account 3 months ago because I hated reactive spells, and on top of that the direct heals were amazingly weak. Needless to say I was shocked when I came back, found out some spells were increased (I selected restoration M2), but now nothing stacks! It is actually harder to keep a group alive now despite a few stronger spells because I have my reactive spell, restoration and amelioration (oh, and group heal if I want to burn a ton of power and have a long cast time for another sliver of hope). Restoration has a 12 second recast time if I remember correctly, so i'm out of luck if i'm trying to heal a MT against a lvl 40ish (i'm 37) mob that hits far harder than the reactive can keep up with, and I use my restoration. I have a my dinky little amel spell which gives a sliver of life and hope until restoration hopefully pops, but if it gets down to that point the MT is usually going to die.

And so far, since returning, every time my group has had adds that attacked someone else in the group, it's basically 75% of the time someone dies. Either the person who got aggro, or the MT becuase i'm trying to heal the other guy for a second. Before the updates, I was able to keep the MT alive, and toss on mini heals / reactives on the wizzies or rangers who grab aggro while not skipping a beat with the MT and my bigger heals. Now I pretty much have to make a choice when I see two health bars going down at once. Like I said, I came back from a 3 month break, so hopefully i'm missing some spells (I also do use mark of princes, and the other reverse DS) but if that's the best we're going to be, basically 2 heals and a reactive, oh, and stupid utility spells to make us 'happy', I can see another break coming up. I'd love to re-roll another class, but I dread the first 20 levels, especially the city quest / lvl 10 / lvl 20 quests.

Thing is, pre-revamp the game was ridiculously easy. you could solo yellow heroic, and having 5 heroic adds meant minimal challenge to a group. The revamp make the game more challenging and balanced (no more guardian only tanking, or warden/templar only healers) and thats a good thing.
Now you suggest that healers keep their group alive in different ways, and thats what they do. cleric has reactive, druid has regen, shamans have ward. some have debuff, some have extra heals, some have extra dps.
If you don't like reactive, well too bad but templar isnt a job for you, i suggest you reroll. What good does it do to keep a class based on something you don't like? The first 20 levels can be done in 1 day now, maybe 2. it's not that big of a deal. if you really wanna rush up, get powere leveled.

Hey devs, can I be the main healer as well? :smileyvery-happy: I don't see the harm...

Well then devs failed. The game is still easy. Some classes can still solo yellow heroics and having 5 heroic adds means only a slight more challenge to a group. True, it did make it 'more' challenging, but not by much. Our paladin still tanks just like pre-revamp, but for healers, now people still think they need templars and are upset because most templars want to play an alt.

And I like reactives, in essence, they are just the same as wards and HoT's. What I dont like is the fact that I always need someone to hand me xp on a platter since I just cant get it alone.

I agree with Tera, if all the priest classes should heal equally, then you don't need, Wardens, furys, Defilers and such. all you need is one class called Priest. Yes it should be that some classes heal better than others, some better Dps, and some better buffs, all with heals. As it is now everyone heals like a cleric, but the cleric has none of the dps of the other classes. No one class should have it all. If all the fighters had the same dps, then whats the point. Again all you would need is one class of fighter

Feel the exact same way. I dont want other utilities. Chose a class for a reason. You want to put all healers in the same situation here ya go then SoE. Remove the DoT's / DD's from the druids. Tell them for starters there days of gradiose soloing crap is over. Give them a water utility instead and tell them to shove it up there cornhole and welcome to beeing a healer. Take the slows from the Shams with the STR and STA debuffs, and give them some water abilities as well. God knows we need thoose. Give everyone the ability to debuff Devine and AC.... There, Now you have made a level table.... If you for one second want to tell me SoE that this is the level, then great. Otherwise, boost us back up or just tell us it aint going to happen and watch more subscriptions fall.


On a side note, to be brutally honest, Im gonna let go here..... and as my guild mates know when I let go I Dont hold back bastards. Here is the thing. Lets take any sequel here. I Got it! Lets start with movies. Back to the future, perfect example. In Back the future 2, it follows the story line and offers the same as before. Why sequels are normally seen just because someone seen the 1st and enjoyed it. I will personally say for thoose that have played the game to 60 ( I Can speak for a large ammount of my guild ) are generally disappointed. This comes from a large range of things. From Raid quest zones, Artwork ( or lack there of ), TIME CONSUMING / REWARDING QUESTS ( Where are quest like the Thurgardin Ring / Thurgardin Shawl, PoF Tradeskillers Earing ), No game play at 60 ( again we stop and wait for you to make additional content / levels where is the AA ).

Take a few lessons from why EQ1 was sucessful. It worked for both the CASUAL gamer and HARDCORE player. See, this is what I dont understand. You are hailing to the casual gamer. Of course, this is where the money comes from. But lets take a step back here. Why is EQ1 Still the best selling MMORPG to date. Because its been around the longest? Nope. Because it was hard and required time. Lets be all serious here. That was put together right, it had every bit of high content designed in the game and kept the standards high. It didnt dumb everything down. Where is the risk Versus reward. Any nub can zone into any zone at any time ( Unless it requires access quests, oh wait thats gone too ). Hell we invite lowbie friends into MoTM. Better yet, we had a 30 Swash in Fountain of life just incase another swash BP dropped, rofl. In EQ1 to walk into Veeshans Peak you had to put on a serious sack of nutz after some serious work ( Im talking mid Kunark days ). You screw up in here, that aint candyland. There is no get out of Jail free card. Its your corpse in there, you cant get back in. You have made this game soo trivial to the point of candyland that most have come to the point that this game is casual and its all that will ever be is casual. Guess what happens to your hard core players. They leave. Along with that goes your testing for your half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] completed content. But see here is the thing. If you make a game hardcore, with a shorter learning curve and keep the challange alive with it, you will be sucessful. Its like trying to teach a dog a trick. IF you reward him for beeing stupid, hes gonna be chasing parked cars for a living. And this is what I see that SoE has done. They have taken a game that required thought, teamwork, skill, knowledge and made an empty promise of a game. The reason why people got hooked on Everquest 1 was the simple fact it was not easy. It ws a challange. Epic meant EPIC not 15 minutes of zoning into a cave with the same mobs that are always up, sending in wave after wave of morns with sticks to kill it thats always ready to kill when ever you want. Epic was back in the days of the Cleric epic 1.0 was in Sol Eye A & B and you had to camp Zordak Ragefire after Nagafen was killed. You had to have friends. Your name meant something besides just /who all templar on a list. Epic was Zones such as Planes of Time that required hours of Work, Trial and Error, Knowledge, and teamwork to accomplish. Not hey, Whats in here. Ooooohhh...Shiny..... No.. Hell No, You dont even get to see it. Get back to the content and PROGRESS, Ya you heard me, PROGRESS through it like the other people before you. Choose any path ya want, but if you want to see this, here is the path. No Chance card to take a ride on the reading railroad. Hell no, Take the path that offers challange, Not just another [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] quest of killing single up mobs.
You have no epic quests / Mobs. Why? To hail to the casual gamer. If there is, aint nothing like EQ1. You ask me my most memorible quest in Eq2. Ya, the Peacock quest series. Why? Because it was hard. Hell No, Its Because I think I need my damm optritian to give me some tri focals after looking for that damm Tape ribbon around the lake for hours. You ask me about Eq1. How about the rathe council. Ya man, 3 hour raid. Off tanks. Heck we spent most of sunday on it trying to figure it out. We did ok, but we learned alot. We will be back next week. So lets see here. Lets compare. Picking up crap around a lake, or rathe... Rathe... But again, you want ALL gamers to experience the high end game. Nobodys to get out of reach. God forbid that someone actually is ahead of someone else. God forbit that you cant group with a friend whos casual and your hardcore. Ya took care of that issue, so whats the problem now. Imo, the way you are thinking is sorta like communism... Dont worry my brother whats good for the calf is good for the heard. Soon enough it will be to the point of where you grab the hammer of dragon slaying off the dock bell in your 1st zone to antonica, kill the dragon and SoE will ask you for your credit card for the next expansion. Hey your only level 11, itll happen.
You have no distinguishing class. Why? Again, to hail to the casual gamer. Nobody wants to play a game for 6 months and have you decide because of your lack of testing and forsight to rework everything. Your wanting to distinquish every class was a good idea, but has totally back fired on you because you have sulked away from a tried and tried model of DnD. Im not a DnD fanatic, but they got there stuff together. Who else crunches #'s until midnight in there mothers bhasement at the age of 35. DnD people. They found the balance on things. Lets take a few steps back. When you tried to intergrate everything in EQ1 as far as Hybrids, you had everyone in a uproar even with the label Extremely Difficult next to the class. People did learn, made em anyways. What did they get, 70 % of each classes ability, but not great at any one thing except 2 innitiate abilities. You have done the same here, except put everyone on par and made everyone a hybrid with crossing skill lines. Unbalanced classes beyond belif in the healing tiers. Screwed your other guardian class thats suppose to tbe the best at tanking when the game came out so that a paladin or SK can out tank them, and put to rest my thoughts that you may get this right. Before ya start screwing up every dam class, take a look at balance, take a look at DnD. You may seriously learn something and why the model of EQ1 was sucessful. Because people were DIFFRENT. This causes social interaction, not lack of as you have learned. Too many of 1 thing spoils the broth, and congradulations on opening the flood gates for re rolls because your idiotic decisions.
Who is this posting again,
Ah yes , its Elrohn the pissed of Templar on Nektulous that is still waiting for a Beta Invite to Vanguard. Where there will be challange, and difficulty and one less templar on Nektulous.
Why screw with something that aint broken? Ask SoE, its to make more money rather than make a superior product to lure cusomters.


Message Edited by Elrohn on 12-19-2005 10:29 PM