The gap, how big where it lies.. Talking dps here.

Ok, I want to explain my thinking and a summary on why I did this.. My first thing is, the harder I button mash the less dps I seem to do when I try hard to get my best, I end up being the bottom. Effort should equal damage, unfortunatly the way our skills our set it doesnt allow for that. Second, I want to mention that peak dps in raids for rangers is 1400, assassins 2000, wizards 2000.

The way I did this is so that people can start from the top and read there way down to how I got my answers. I took each and every damage art and added the totals, then categorized the totals then compared the total damages. Then, I went down to cast times to see the diffrence. If we were ballanced these things would equal themselves out. Like, if there is 50% less damage in the total damages there should be a 50% faster time to cast inorder to get equal damage.
Ranger 25851 38378 72420

Assassin 28296 47624 63671
----
2445(assa) 9246(assa) 8749(rng)
In theroy these totals are ballanced, one will jump ontop of another. This is with snipers shot, decapitate, and mark excluded.With mark--
Ranger 25851 38378 72420
Assassin 32101 51429 67476
--- --- ---
6250 89807 4944
This is with mark, to give a greater handle on where assassins actually are, unfortunatly the likely hood of an assassin doing max damage with mark in a group or solo setting is slim, so I have chosen to seperate these.
Ranger 14.4|20.5 18.8|26.5 31.8|45.5
Asssassin 8.8(10.7) 12.6(17.4) 22.6(30.5)
(all abilities included) ---- ---
5.6s 38%diff 6.2s(32% diff) 9.2(28)
3.7 26% 1.4 7.4% 1.3 4.1
When I say all abilities included snipers shot is still taken out of here.. The first number is poise on both ends, the second is without poise. ON the second number after the | is without poise. Now, first diffrence in numbers is with both classes with poise, the second diffrence in numbers is rangers with poise assassins without poise. So this is showing that even though rangers are getting aa's, these aa's are just to put a ranger with an assassin who doesnt have any aa's..

What needs to be changed, is all our frontal melee abilities need to be changed and boosted to start with - shocking thrust, rip, lunging joust. And then another small boost to either recasts, or damage to archery abilities. And a large increase in the ability snaring shot. It should be easy for a ranger to achieve 1k dps without influence of other classes. The way things should be, the harder I button mash the higher my damage should go.

I was talking to sokolov on the phone the other day, the main thing he dident seem to understand is why I did things in a set time with damage, mathimatical time on the second part. The reasoning for that, is that there is a diffrence in that time I cant say that all abilities used will add up to 30 seconds for the first interval, and then 1 min for the next. The amount of time passed to use all the abilities once is diffrent between the two of them so I cannot give st intervals. What I can do however, is add both times up. Then add or subtract them from the total damages from the percentage of the time diffrence. The shorter the time diffrence, the less diffrence in damage, the greater the time diffrence the greater the diffrence in damage. So if I had 600 damage in 1 minute, and then 610 damage in a minute 10. Both would even out to 600.
Ranger

--- Archery--- 30s 1m

Amazing shot(1m) 1515 --
(crit) (1969) -- 3938

Counfounding arrow(30s) 1249 2872
(crit) (1623) --- 4495

Culling of the Weak(1m) 1832 --
(crit) (2381) -- 4762

Devitalizing Arrow(1m 1581 -- 4110
(crit) (2055)

Precise shot(20s) 882 2028 I
(crit) (1146) -- 3174

Tripple volly(1m) 2412 --
(crit) (3135) -- 6270

-----
Sub total 9471
-Focusaim- 12312 14440 39061Snaring shot (10s) 533 1599 3198

Vieled Fire(1m 30s) 3886 -- --

---
Subtotal 16731 19925 42259
(above ranged abilities with crits included)
---
Melee

Arrow Rip(20s) 802 1604 2406
Emberstrike(10s) 1181 3543 7086
Longblade(10s) 852 2556 5112
Lunging Joust(20s) 815 1630 2445
Rangers blade(1m) 2754 -- 5508
Shocking Thrust(10s) 588 1764 3348

---
Subtotal 6992 16325 25905Dot
Mortal Reminder (30s) 2128 --- 4256

Hawkdive - No actual figures.

---
Subtotal 2128 --- 4256
Area of effect

Rain of arrows (2min) 4336 --- ---
(4targets) 17344
(8targets) 34688

Selection(1min) 1705 --- 3410
(4targets) 6820 -- 13630
-8targets- 13640 --- 27280
---
Subtotal 6041 --- 7746
(4 targets) 24164 --- 30974
(8 targets) 48328 --- 61968
--- Snipers shot 9224 ---
-------------------------------------------
Total 25851

With crit+snipers
--- Assassin --
Range
--
Assasiling Blast(20s) 882 1764 2646
Contrived Weapon(20s) 902 1804 2706
Neck shot(1m) 2492 -- 4984
Spitting asp(1m) 2016 -- 4032

---
Subtotal 6292 3568 14368
---

DoTs

Deadly Wound(20s)(24d) 1431 2862 4293
Flowing Wound(30s)24d) 2063 4126 6189
Scraping Blow(10s)(12d) 713 2139 4278

---
Subtotal 4207 9127 14760
---

---
Melee
---

Crippling strike(1m) 1604 -- 3208
Eviscerate(1m) 2754 -- 5508
Finishing blow(45s) 1504 -- 3008
Freezing strike(1m) 1672 -- 3344
Jugular(1m) 1957 -- 3914
Killing Blade(2m) 6335 -- --
Masked attack(10s) 852 2556 5112
Puncture Blade(10s) 1299 3897 7794

---
Subtotal 17977 24430 38223
---
AE's

Slaughtersault(1m) 1876 --- 3752
(4 Targets) 7504 --- 15008
(8 Targets) 15005 --- 300016

Cloaked Assault(30s)12d) 2312 4624 6936
(4 Targets) 9248 18496 27744
(8 Targets) 18496 36992 55488

---
Subtotal 4188 6936 10688
(4targets) 16752 35248 42752
(8targets) 33504 70493 355504
---
Misc
---
Decapitate(10m) 14454(excluded)
Malignant Mark(30s) 3805(excluded)
-------------------------
Total 28296
-----
-----
Comparison of totals
----
---
Range
---
Ranger 16731 19925 42259
Assassin 6292 9860 14368
--- -- ---
10439(rang) 10065(rng) 27891(rng)

---
Melee
---
Ranger 6992 16325 25905
Assassin 17977 24430 38223
-- --- --
10985(assa) 8105(assa) 12318(assa)
---
DoT's
---
Ranger 2128 2128 4256
Assassin 4207 13334 14760
--- --- ---
2079(assa) 11206(assa) 10504(assa)

---
AoE's(single target)
---
Ranger 6041 6041 7746
Assassin 4188 6936 10688
---- --- ---
1853(ranger) 895(assa) 2942(assa)

-------------------
Total Diffrence(AE's excluded and misc excluded)
---------------
Ranger 25851 38378 72420
Assassin 28296 47624 63671
----
2445(assa) 9246(assa) 8749(rng)


With mark--
Ranger 25851 38378 72420
Assassin 32101 51429 67476
--- --- ---
6250 89807 4944-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actuall Cast times involved
------------------------------
I
Amazing shot 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2
Arrow rip 0.3(.5) 2 0.6 3 0.9
Confounding Arrow 0.7(1) 2 1.4 3 2.1
Culling of the Weak 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2
Emberstrike 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8
Devitalizing arrow 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2
Longblade 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8
Lunging joust 0.3(.5) 2 0.6 3 0.9
Mortal Reminder 0.3(.5) 1 0.3 3 0.9
Precise shot 0.7(1) 2 1.4 3 2.1 <---(stupid mistake)
Rain of arrows 1.4(2) 1 1.4 1 1.4
Rangers blade 0.3(.5) 1 0.3 2 0.6
Selection 2.2(3) 1 2.2 2 4.4
Shocking thrust 0.3(.5) 3 0.9 6 1.8
Snipers shot 3.7(5) 1 -- --
Tripple Volley 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1 2 2.2
Vield fire 2.2(3) 1 2.2 1 2.2
Focus aim 0.7(1) 1 0.7 2 1.4
---
14.4(20.5) 18.8(26.5) 31.1(45.5)
---
18.1(25.5)(with snipers shot)
---

Assailing blast 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2) 3 2.1(3)
Cloaked assault 0.7(1) 1 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2)
Contrived Weapon 0.7(1) 2 1.4(2) 3 2.1(3)
Crippling strike 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)
Deadly wound 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1) 3 0.9(1.5)
Eviscerate 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)
Finishing blow 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)
Flowing wound 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1) 3 0.9(1.5)
Freezing strike 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)
Jugular 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 2 0.6(1)
Malignant mark 0.1(.2) 2 0.2(.4) 3 0.4(0.6)
Killing blade 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5) 1 0.3(.5)
Masked attack 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3)
Neck shot 1.4(2) 1 1.4(2) 2 2.8(4)
Puncture blade 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3)
Slaughtersault 1.1(1.5) 2 2.2(3) 3 3.3(4.5)
Spitting asp 1.1(1.5) 1 1.1(1.5) 2 2.2(3)
Scrapping blow 0.3(.5) 3 0.9(1.5) 6 1.8(3)
---
9.1 12.6 22.6
---

Ranger 14.4|20.5 18.8|26.5 31.8|45.5
Asssassin 8.8(10.7) 12.6(17.4) 22.6(30.5)
(all abilities included) ---- ---
5.6s 38%diff 6.2s(32% diff) 9.2(28)
3.7 26% 1.4 7.4% 1.3 4.1%Lets take the base cast times, then add it to the totals of the first total to the ranger total in casttime.(assuming both have poise)

Ranger 18612 26097 52142

Assassin 32101 51429 67476

--- --- ---
13489 25332 15334
You can also use this to make a pattern, there is only one change here and thats at the 2-4 min mark with the assassins killing blade. You will see the longer the fight is, the bigger the gap is.. I also wish to point out that 6292(assa dot) + 17977(assa melee) = 24269. And Ranger ranged 16731.
24269 - 16731 = 7538 diffrence. To dispell any myths about rangers being able to maintain ranged dps and stay on the top of there game.

I want everyone to remember.. That these values should be similar to similar damage even without poise.. Poise should be a bonus, not bringing a 50 aa'd ranger to a 0 aa'd assassin. The problem isent in our AA's. It is in our class basics.

No more editing, additions, tweaks, you name it to this. If you want to expand it, do at your own time. I just wanted to write this out to show there is a problem and where it lies. And if this thread gets locked for any reason IE: flamming, dev trying to do a "cover up", insaulting assassins or ranger, etc.. I will do my best to annoy you!

All credit for this goes to Mortred on the Befallen server.(Person posting this)
Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-18-2006 09:22 AM- Found a mistake in cast times, total time is lowered by .7.. - I likely was looking at number of times or hit the wrong button etc... Things happen.. Most of the mistakes I found were was spacing all this junk.
Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-20-2006 12:59 PM
Message Edited by LoreLady on 07-21-2006 07:59 AM

Ok, now that I have gotten that out of the way.. Now to get rid of a large misconception in every rangers eyes.. AE's.

---
AoE's(single target)
--- Inst 30s 1min 1m30s 2min
Ranger 6041 6041 7746 7746 13787
Assassin 4188 6936 10688 13000 17188
---- ---
1853 895 2942

1705 Nat 4336 rain 1876slaughter1m 2312cloaked (30s

See where im going with this?

The next person who says rain is the oposite of snipers shot gets a rotten tomato to the face. It will have green mold that will smell and wont leave, I stopped using arrows a LONG time ago these work much MUCH better.

really good post, hopefully a dev can use this data to fix/revamp our styles to make them on par with our coussins, thx

Thanks for taking the time to compile this. I'm glad you posted it. It pretty much reinforces what I've said for some time.
I've long said that assassins out-dps rangers by more than 300 dps. If you take your 60 sec totals, the assassin has 15,334 more dps than the ranger. This is over 250 dps more. So there's some correlation.
Of course, your figures are "book values" based on only what the ranger & assassin bring to the table alone. The reality is that in raid situations when one adds various raid buffs, etc., the gap grows larger, not smaller and the disparity between assassin and ranger dps can get to 400-500 dps. And that, my friends, is why most high level raid guilds won't accept any new ranger members.
There is nothing fancy required to redress this imbalance. We don't really need anything "new". It's simply a matter of increasing the damage that most of our CAs do by increasing their base damage, reducing cast times, reducing recast times, or some of all of these.
SoE over-nerfed us in LU20. They made some effort to correct this in LU21. But they simply didn't understand the degree to which our pre-LU20 dps was dependent on procs and therefore failed to realize how inadequate our basic CAs were. The LU21 tweaks they made were inadequate. I said it at the time (in the face of some who felt that the LU21 tweaks were all we needed to restore us to equivalency to assassins in dps). Well, I've been since proved right about our being over-nerfed in LU20 and that LU21 tweaks were inadequate.
I really don't understand why SoE doesn't fix this now. Surely SoE knows the imbalance exists. The playerbase sure as heck knows the imbalance exists and would not be shocked to see the needed fixes made.

There's probably a few flaws in the analysis (like not taking into account Focus and procs) but broadly speaking I think it's correct. I hope some developers pay attention.

This jives with what I've been seeing in raids. Our best assassin is usually #1 dps occasionally getting outpaced slightly by a conjuror, necro, or swashie. Our 2 rangers don't even come close on average. They both have the bow out of Labs but record anywhere from 100 to 600 less dps than our best assassin. They still end up being about 200 dps less than our other assassin who has mostly crafted gear.

The problem is that all this is going to do (if anything) is get assassins nerfed, not help us.

Sad but true.

If assassins were far and away out-dps'ing all other classes, that might be true. But they aren't.
Currently swashbucklers, berzerkers, brigands, monks, brawlers, conjurers, necros, will all out-dps rangers and so all fall somewhere within the range between rangers and assassins. Some are close to assassins and some are only a about 100-200 dps more than rangers. So there really isn't much room to nerf assassins.
And it would be nonsensical to do it anyway given assassin's "pure dps" role vs. those other class' utility. Of course, given the fact that rangers have even less utility than assassins, arguably the least utility of any class in the game, it points even more strongly to the shortcomings of ranger dps.

OK but I'm basing this hypothesis off history rather than hope.

What would you do to influence the game? To point out where the problems are etc..I also ask - what are you doing to help?


Btw, NO WHERE did I add snipers shot/decap in there - to controversial.. Just what damage each of them do.

I know I attempted a thing like this earlier, but this is a much more accurate reading of where things stand. This was at 428 str for both, with perfectionist for both.

Even if you add 150 dmg to each ranger ability (30% chance to proc), and 50 dmg to each assassin ability (10% proc) - you still fall short by ALOT on the ranger end..

I stopped complaining when they fixed my class. I do wicked DPS no matter what anyone says. I have a lot of fun playing my character.

Maybe the devs want assassins to do slightly more damage than us because they don't get to do it all from ranged? I don't know. It's not as big of a deal as the disparities used to be.

Dont spread misconceptions. I dont want another becka walking in saying that we do 100% of our damage out of joust range.

I don't see the problem.

I assume the total damage numbers for 30s and 1m are both consistent with recast timers.

Thus, while Assassins cast abilities faster, their total CA damage is less than rangers as shown.

The "calculation" of adjusting down the Rangers' total CA damage based on the extra cast time makes no sense whatsoever. Is the Ranger just going stop using his CAs when the Assassin runs out of CAs to use?

Since the original damage totals already take time into account, incorporating a secondary element of time where none exists is completely illogical.

I will concede tho that based on the above data the Assassin will have more autoattack time, but there's no logical reason to presume that when both Predators spam attacks, the Ranger will not be allowed to use all of his CAs while the Assassin can.
Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-18-2006 09:48 PM

I'm not going to censor myself for the sake of *******, sorry.

I have to agree there is a discrepancy towards the high end of raids. Our parses show Rangers to be 10% to 20% behind other DPS classes (and some classes that are a DPS/utility mix).

To the people saying maybe our DPS damage is lower because we can stay at ranged; I'm sorry but that's outdated information. To conistantly achieve the highest DPS we have to joust too. If we don't do the jousting we fall even further behind other classes in damage output.

The problem seems to get worse the more a guild fine tunes it's DPS groups. In my previous guild I was top 1 or 2 every parse in labs and Lyceum. In my new guild raiding up to DT, I am doing 200 DPS more (on average) due to better tuned groups, but am typically much lower on the parses.

Higher DR bows are not necessarily the answer. That higher DR affects all classes using the bow.

I think lowered recast time and possibly a slight boost to CA's is the right way to go - at least this uses existing mechanics. Whatever solution is used it has to provide consistant results and preferably easy to implement.

The high end guilds are not leaving Rangers out on a whim. They would only leave out a class because it brings less to a raid than other classes. In the case of the Ranger we bring lower DPS than any number of classes and no truly useful raid utility.

SoE didn't know what to do with Rangers for much of EQlive and it seems they have not been able to learn from their mistakes and mainain an adequate class vision and balance in this game.

I love the idea of a Ranger and will stick with mine here but should I switch games in the future I won't be playing another. Designers seem to like the idea of the class but never know what to do with it once implemented.

Mirdo.

Would be nice if they could add a spell/ca power reduction, casting time reduction, or something along those lines as a buff for us. Would be great to have us along then... :smileysad:

Because, while our total damages for all our abilities are ballanced. The time factor to that damage is not, if it takes you 1 min to do 100k damage, and someone can do the same damage in 30 seconds. Even though that the abilities total are the same, the realistic damage isent.

When I looked at your post Lorelady...I really was trying to read the parses...but then my eyes unfocused a bit...and I saw a SAILBOAT!

Thats really neat...how did you do that? Cant wait for the next one

Well if you feel strongly about it post it on one of the main forums and try to get the issue addressed in the upcoming August 3rd Stratics Dev chat.


Edit - just read thread under combat Forum. Perhaps it would be good to bring it up on Stratics!
Message Edited by griffiths on 07-19-2006 09:32 AM