The difficulty and tank gear seems pretty good now

Discussion in 'General TLE Discussion' started by Sixgauge, Jul 30, 2020.

  1. Sixgauge Well-Known Member

    There are desirable upgrades to go after and the content seems relatively hard, but doable... I think it is the best tuned the difficulty has been so far on Kaladim. The itemization progression isn't perfect, and obviously I can't speak for other players and guilds, but I'm happy so far.

    I will now lurk back into the shadows and if anything else comes up, I'll let you know ;p
  2. Naneeje Well-Known Member

    I am going to agree with you, in the hopes that they continue to make necessary changes. Shackles of the Court was, needs to get back to a defensive item, OR< provide a defensive stat replacement.
    That is the big question, will they continue to make a few more changes to ensure gear in the crafted versions are defensive as well.
    All in all, with the fiasco it was, I am super thrilled with the results of the first go.
    Sixgauge likes this.
  3. TethysKaladim New Member

    What do you mean just Shackles of the Court?
    Correct me as required as I'm unable to double check myself at the moment
    But isn't it the case that the vast majority of jewelry is yet to be addressed at all?
    And isn't it also the case that there are significant issues with the little gear exchange guy in Kylong? - that a decent segment of the items offered feature the same stunning lack of Health and Mitigation as all other afflicted items?

    And I mean, gear itemisation variety is already tremendously lacking in this game. It's just laughable that they'd resort to collapsing the entirety of itemised RoK dungeon tank gear to a single set of armor, and even then make itemisation mistakes.

    They initially said they'd address tank items well before the next patch, but instead nothing happened until that next patch a full two weeks after. Any further fixes will be rolled out very slowly.

    And I do apologise for ******** over your thread, but it is apparent that the perspective here is a selectively curated one omitting much relevant info.

    I mean, sure man, glass half full and whatever you like, but from where I'm standing you guys really do seem like gluttons for punishment. At what point will you have been sufficiently butt ****** ?
  4. Lala Croft New Member

    Tanks can still taunt and healers can still heal them, what's the problem? Unless you're fighting Trakanon you won't need your jewellery to have those stats.
  5. TethysKaladim New Member

    In a game where essentially the sole means of character progression is through gearing, there's a very tight connection between gear acquisition and general playability (e.g., maintenance of interest through sense of achievement/improvement), and this is why lack of choice and diversity (e.g., item uniformity as in the case of collapsing all RoK tank heroic gear into a single gear set, or outright leaving all tank jewlery de-itemised) become huge issues. I can't spell this idea out any more simply.
  6. Naneeje Well-Known Member

    Tethys, Shackles of the Court is a tank item, it is the wrist item from the Warden in the Court of Korocust. (right room guy if you are lucky and get the Warden and not his placeholder).
    I really enjoyed farming this for my tanks, and the lore supports it as a tank item going through the lore of the Chardok questlline that starts by turning in the Dull Kromzek Slayers.
  7. TethysKaladim New Member

    part of point of that comment nanejee is that all non-new tank jewelry is screwed globally. I wouldn't hold my breath.
  8. Leibnitz Member

    Well I don't think "tank gear seems pretty good now" is right at all, sorry.
  9. GhostofRivervale New Member

    Tank gear is fine, it's not really an issue that you can't get max health and another stat in every slot.

    The only thing they need to do more is delete max health from all pieces of solo gear/ earlier heroics if they wanna keep what they have now.

    The best thing that they can do is just remove all resemblance of "tank" stats like max health, block, and mit increase from all pieces of gear. Instead make healer buffs more significant in terms of mitigation and max health/block to make setups more important. Also just make the base stamina/mitigation on raid gear better.

    There is no reason tank gear should have mit increase or max health on it.
  10. TethysKaladim New Member

    whats ur reason it shouldnt, u give no reason.

    The reason that tank gear should have stats that enhance survivability is the same reason that it makes sense for all classes to be able to acquire gear that enhances the performance of their primary role (i.e., Mages have access to AM/CS/Reuse gear so they can do more DPS, Priests have access to AM/CS/Reuse gear as well so that they can enhance their HPS, and Scouts have access to Flurry/MA/DPS/Haste gear so that they can enhance their DPS).

    How is this difficult or controversial

    Sure there are classes that can do more than one primary thing, e.g., priests can dps and heal simultaneously, just as fighters can dps as well as take damage well, but why should fighters be the one archetype that lacks access to gear that allows them to perform their primary job better?

    Is it just tuning? The current raid tuning seems decent, however they should not have needed to de-itemise the majority of tank gear in order to achieve it.
  11. Leibnitz Member

    Certainly you can find 6 items which are tanky. I just don't think that equates to 'fine', or 'seems pretty good'.
  12. Jandraligeli Member

    Jewellery untouched. People are running down existing subscriptions, while any changes to armour is welcome we need to see more progress. We have to see further updates by this time next week or it's over for a large part of the player base.
  13. Seth Active Member

    I just find it amusing how people are attempting to Side with a mistake that daybreak did and have decided to just leave untouched. It was Not meant to be this way they just cant be bothered to fix it, they added in a trash merchant with half the items not really being decent, they did not touch jewellery because they clearly cant be bothered.

    Sure saying " its good blah blah means they can now do their predestined thing which is buffing everyone elses buffs etc etc, all i say to that is an easy " no " it's not what they planned its not part of some " itemization plan going forward " where they buff all the healers and whatsi dodits, they messed up and cba to fix it, I mean Kanders layout for it was incredibly easy and straightforward to understand but heyheyhey, it was completely the opposite, the bot failed to itemize it the way that it was meant to be.

    They could have easily done a server rollback pre patch and been like Okay it's back the way it was while we sort out this trash bot but no, I Highly and i am sure you can agree with me, I HIGHLY doubt their minds work that way, After all you got T1 mobs attached with mini rocket launchers for hands attached with 100% APR and dev command AoE nukesplosions.

    And yes there is a reason tank gear should have mit and HP on it, and that is for one simple fact, ITS TANK GEAR. What other stats are you meant to have if not something that literally defines your class... You can go on live and look at the stats that armour has and to no suprise it has hp, mit and about 5 other things.

    They just cant be bothered to fix it here.

    So no, it's not " Tuned " it's what you call " lackadaisical behaviour "
  14. GhostofRivervale New Member

    Probably because for oh I don't know, the first ten years of this game no gear had massive amounts of max health/mit increase on it?

    Between a monk and a guardian right now, you can have a temp up meaning an avoid, stoneskin, and guardian sphere like 80% of the time. I've watched everything be killed post nerf, guilds are clearing VP right now with a paladin. A paladin.

    Gear without any of those tank blue stats still increases your survivability by quite a bit. If you're now gonna go on about healer/mage/scout gear we can go there too. Healers have far too much reuse at the moment, casting speed I can really not care about. In scouts cases I can care less if they have tons of auto attack stats because it's.... auto attack. I'm all in favor of a complete stat dump, meaning everyone walks away with nothing but it's not realistic. What also isn't realistic is their bot trying to put six blue stats on mage pieces because PR is hard and tanks need max health.

    As I said earlier, I don't know if you're new to EQ2; which based on your tirade you've been going on about "tank gear" i'm guessing you are, max health/mit increase do not belong on gear.


    There is still tons of "tank gear" out there even if you take out every single max health/mit increase blue stat on every piece in game. Sure this is trakanon/anashti but there is still gear out there.

    Do you even realize how broken putting over 100% max health on a tank is like we had in EoF/Pre-nerf rok? Do you realize how insane it is to bolster someone and actually give them 25-30% more HP than they had before? Do you understand that mitigation is on such a curve that you can give a guardian 10k more right now (like hunker down was doing) and it accomplishes close to nothing in terms of actual damage reduction?

    Yes, everyones stats are too high; they just decided to nerf fighters because frankly it was ruining itemization to have pieces everyone could wear with every dps stat and defensive stats as well without labeling it figher only.

    It's not a mistake to nerf tank gear, they just stopped there and didn't fix everything.

    Aren't you the guy who thought that the relic gear adding .2 potency per piece was a actually decent idea?

    Also bots are one grouping certain t1 mobs, if you're wiping to them; go back to heroics.
  15. Seth Active Member

    yeah your right back in the day specific stats did not exist but i find it crazy how people keep saying back in the day. It's hilarious.

    Also why post a picture of trak neck, let's convert those stats to new numbers, 1k resistances on a neck, okay already more than your average piece, 200 health, equivalent to what 2.5 max health, okay still, pretty decent , along with the old stats being strength sta , agil & wisdom which Increased different things not just " damage " " health ". Okay, 1k Ward when procced, 100 combat art and spell damage, flat amount I might add, so more valuable than abmod.

    Not even going to convert Anashi I mean you literally linked Anashi...

    I think you are forgetting that just because it does not have Max HP or Mit that the stats are not there. Green stats used to mean something.

    But if you want to attempt to push DBG to put an overpowered at the time Proc on to everything, be my guest, I wouldn't mind.

    FYI I couldn't care less that they removed multi and reuse etc off the tank gear, I agree it was incredibly overpowered and I was expecting such a thing, but to just dismiss a mistake they did and be aware of it And not fix it, funny stuff.

    btw and I quote " gear without any of those blue stats still increase your survivability " , what the extra 20 mitigation :D ( after you said mitigation is practically rendered useless ) , now what's this about 0.2 potency at least when you add 0.2 potency up it comes to a decent difference.
  16. Nata New Member

    The only gear that is going to have fighter stats is gear that is either fighter only, or only has 3 blue stats.

    Tethys, you need to wear the solo /overland 3 slot jewelry with max hp until you can find some of the raid drop fighter only pieces. There isn't a piece in every slot that will provide tank stats, and if you reflect back to live, it wasn't true then either.

    As you get the fighter jewelry type pieces, you'll probably drop some of that 3 stat gear for some dps pieces for the slots no fighter piece is available for.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the itemization now other than some of those 3 stat items only came from quests and if you already did it and destroyed it, you have no means of getting it back.

    I feel if we continue to complain about this issue, the result will be removal of the max hp from those 3 stat items.
  17. TethysKaladim New Member

    The proper gear precedent for Kunark on this server should be previous expansions of this server and not Live - for these purposes I don't care how gear was itemised on live, as, and I'm not sure if you're just new ghostorfivervale, but the hideous stat revamp of 2010 or 2011 or whenever it was makes any direct comparisons here little more than ego-stroking vanity trips. Our server has only ever used the post-revamp stat system and never the pre-revamp stat system, wow, what a revelation. And just because that stat revamp was generally horrible doesn't mean that the <Health/Mit and/or Block on Fighter items> convention that Kaladim has so far used should be overthrown - it's our server's precedent for gear itemisation.

    The goal as far as gear tuning here goes should be to create an internally consistent set of systems (built on relevant precedent) that provides proper gear progression, reasonable risk vs reward, and sensibly challenging raid tuning (which doesn't require wiping out all Health/Mit/Block). Right now as far as I can tell only the last of those three criteria is remotely met.

    I agree that previous Kaladim expansions had stat explosions that trivialised much content.
    However that is a bad argument for poor tuning of (i) gear progression, and (ii) risk vs reward, as challenging raid tuning is not mutually exclusive with these two things.

    And I also agree that gear with two or more tank survivability stats shouldn't have had a bunch of DPS stats as well. It's just that in order to fix that they had to break so many other elements of good itemisation.

    And Atan nobody's unaware where to get that jewelry. The objection is that overland solo quest jewlery shouldn't beat out all heroic jewelry and most raid jewelry for tank survivability, and also that for two weeks all of that overland jewelry, rather than just most of it, was tank survivability BIS.
  18. GhostofRivervale New Member

    It is not a revelation in the slightest that tank gear on Kaladim is different than what it was on live. Yes, for the past three expansions on Kaladim we have seen a massive explosion in tank stats. Yes, the gear post DoV has been grossly redesigned many times over. Yes we use the post revamp system.

    As I touched on earlier, you have an issue with their itemization bot throughout all of the expansion's thus far; putting inflated amounts of tank stats on items that other classes can use. Giving access to both large amounts of offensive stats such as flurry, multi attack, reuse, etc. while also adding in the tank stats such as max health and mitigation increase. I'm unsure if someone new ran the script for RoK, but it appeared every single gear type was hit this way regardless of it was plate, chain, or cloth.

    It's not a question of if Kaladim has been using a different gear system than live in terms of stat chosen and their alloted amounts, it's a question of it's a good choice or not. The answer to that is simply no in my opinion. You run into a few issues largely inflating tank HP. One of those issues is AoE's.

    AoE's at point blank on a tank have been at a point that tanks have had to prepare for (at least in the later game/the original game). I'm thinking of classic breath from woushi that you had to either temp up prior to the aoe to build ward accumulation or stoneskin it all together. War boar's aoe's in plane of war, nearly all of the TSO/SF/DOV aoes, etc. If you give tanks massive amounts of HP you can't realistically tune up AoE's unless you give them a serious reduction based on the distance from the mob. Which will never happen as it would require an extreme retuning of lots of aoe's outside of the basic radius damage reduction applied to them. A lot of later aoe's in the game have this built in, but not really in the earlier content levels.

    The other option is for non-tank players to have to put on large amounts of tank jewelry to be able to have the HP to live through aoes, which also isn't realistic nor a good game design in my opinion. This is basically what ended up happening to lots of players in the Tears of Veeshan expansion, raid guilds were required to refarm up all the gear they had already gotten just to supplement their raid force with a max health set on progression.

    The other issue is as I touched on earlier how much more powerful slapping a buff like bolster or other stamina increasing buffs onto a tank become. I believe that tank HP should come healers, meaning individual stamina buffs, or things such as bolster; not a inflated sense of max health on gear which further ruins tank/healer balance in general. I would like the idea that adding a warden to a main tank group to add a serious amount of tank survival in terms of not only max health, but also mitigation from the healer mitigation buff itself (which as of KoS no longer gives mitigation to tanks without any indication in the patch notes nor a developer acknowledging it because ?).

    As far as throwing mit increase/block chance on gear, they can throw unlimited amounts; it really just won't matter. Mobs have so much strike-through at the moment the only time you're actually given a reprieve in terms of your uncontested block working is when you have a temp that gives immunity to strike-through up.

    As of now there is plenty of "tank pieces" that you can get, there is a full left side from heroics and raids that have max health, reuse, and mit increase. That is a clear progression.

    There isn't a single piece of solo gear that is required to clear anything at this point. Meaning you can wear max health on nearly every slot that is available in a raid/heroic progression sense and still clear everything. I'd value reuse more than max health at this point due to how much you gain in terms of pure survive-ability and also being able to sub the J-cap/Roa's onto dps oriented classes.

    I find it humorous that max health is on solo gear, and solo gear alone in a lot of slots such as jewelry; but it's in no way required to clear anything. As far as itemization in general, no it's not good. Everyone knows that. You have solo/heroic pieces edging out raid pieces in a myriad of classes at the moment. Even before this tank debacle that we were faced with earlier this past month, there was large amounts of protests throughout the expansions about in general raid gear being worse than heroic/solo gear.

    Even looking back at even avatar pieces being worse than heroic pieces in EoF, such as the weapon from the maestro in Unrest, or the plasma wand, or even soulfire being better than the Avatar of Flame unique dropped weapon. It even goes worse and goes deeper when you realize that certain stats aren't allocated onto specific pieces, and specific pieces alone. You can find a raid chest piece for a templar with reuse/ability mod yet a heroic chest piece with casting speed/reuse. The ability mod in no way will ever beat out the bonus to casting speed, so people simply wear the heroic chest piece instead. I wish that they would just allocate certain stats onto specific pieces as they did in the past.

    For example crit only being found on cloak/weapons/bow/charms/belt, that way any raid piece always had the same exact stat layout yet it's always an upgrade. Or potency only being on necks/chest/shoulders/pants. Extra Riposte Chance only being on chest pieces and each tier of solo/heroic having more.

    If the developers are reading this and looking for suggestions? Remove max health from all solo gear entirely, make max health a strictly raid/heroic stat, and allocate it onto specific pieces only.
  19. Sixgauge Well-Known Member

    Agree the itemization is not great and perfect. I'm just referring to when after the first fubar there was literally 0 reason to play my tank, and it was quite demoralizing. But they put in some upgrades, which fixed that problem and made me happy to play again.

    No, it's not a lot of upgrades, and shackles of the court will likely be #foreverbroken which is unfortunate for those that bought it for 30p+. We could sit around all day adding to this list.. but I didn't see a point to rehash a laundry list of failure in the OP, when it just lengthens the post and is a drag for devs to constantly read, and ultimately nothing will be accomplished from it.

    But, there are at least some upgrades, thus a reason to raid and run heroic instances, a reason to contest dominus ganak, even a reason to kill overland solo mobs and do solo chores, a reason for tanks to play the ga. This is much better and playable than what it was. Not every piece has +hp but once you have "enough" hp, the level 80 reuse and multi attack pieces are worth looking at.

    Also the difficulty is good after the tank HP nerfs and raid encounter tuning. The days of posting memes in discord while auto attacking a pinata are over. If your guild's raiding 101 game isn't tight, don't have fabled epics or 140 AA or RoK gear or adornments, you will wipe repeatedly and struggle. You will have to do a variety of content to gear out every slot, some of it is quick and easy, some takes a long time farming... some of it is level 70 or 72, but at least they are obtained from RoK content. And we (theoretically) have hunters and SoH in the chamber, so this works for me.
  20. strabs New Member

    Whether there are tank items in the game or not now is still not going to make me come back to RoK ether way. For me its about trust off which i have none.
    Power nerfing me 3 weeks in to RoK and not at the start of the xpack was out right stupid.Turning just about every item i had in to total useless junk was a first for me in any game iv played. If just a few off the items i have where still good i could off rebuilt but every single item was crapped on other than my 2 hunters items. What a total waste of time the first 3 weeks i spent playing Rok on this server. So for me its about when a nerf like this should be done and how they went about it which is unforgivable. Also the broken condition that RoK was released in off which is so disappointing.

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