Hey, I just recently started playing my Templar again who is now level 61. I found it very hard to get back into my Templar after the devestating gameplay changes. I know this has been talked about to exhaustion, but was wondering.. are there any current plans to restore Templars to SOME of their formal glory? The "all 6 healers equal" thing is actually BS in my opinion. Shaman and Druid can do a TON more than clerics and now heal just as good... who in their right mind would want a cleric over a druid or a shaman? Sure, Templars can wear plate, but let's be honest, that's a joke -- Templars are the last thing in the world from tanks or dealing damage from a weapon. All we had was our superior healing abilities (LIKE IT SHOULD BE!!) If Sony felt it was entirely too unbalanced that's fine, nerf Templars... I'm not just complaining because they were nerfed, everyone complains about nerfs if it is their class being nerfed. But come on, give us something, even if we are only moderately better at healing than the other healers. We can't solo, we can't damage, we can't PVP... the new mezzing spells are more stupid than even the nerfs! Please Sony.. I was once a happy EQ2 paying Templar.. and I have lost my way.. Do we even have professional hats, yet? *cry* Message Edited by xyagentguy on 05-02-2006 08:13 PM
Sorry, I can tank, I can solo, I can PvP. Too many people are looking at what other classes have and neglecting what we're good at. Half of the data I see supporting that we suck are designed, and ran in situations that we're inferior at, yet none deal with the situations in which we're superior (I think we all know what that is). Only two things I can agree with here- A - Yes, the all healers are equal thing is crap... why? Cause we're still the best. When another class manages to consistently out heal me in parses, group or raid, then I will concede that we're worse. B - Profession hats - It is ludicrous that we're still waiting for ours. I will concede one point, and that's that we require high quality gear to be reach our designed efficiency, while druids and shamans dont need to be quite as good, for the reason that they dodge damage, we soak it. We also require the tank to be geared up decently for our reactives to be efficient. /shrug. I'll be here all week defending this class.
i'm sorry, but I find it laughable that you say you can solo and pvp, what do you do exactly? Heal yourself until you hope the enemy stumbles inflicting + 5 stubbed toe pain? And the part about you thinking it's ludicrous we don't have hats, that's pure opinion on your part. Just another peice to the puzzle that make Templars feel like the devs aren't that interested in the class, or improving it. Besides, the post was in FAVOR of Templars, you make it seem like I was attacking them.
This isnt supporting the class as it is, this is complaining that the class needs improvement. When you ask for improvement, you are essentially attacking the current build, or some component of, if there was no problem we wouldn't need to be improved, no? If we get restored to even some some of our former glory, we will be overpowered. Also, "Do we even have professional hats, yet? *cry* " And you go on to attack that I said it was ludicrous? I'd change the wording in your original post, because it sure reads like you think its not right either.... Next quote - "Heal yourself until you hope the enemy stumbles inflicting + 5 stubbed toe pain?" - I can break 300DPS solo, without even using my long delay skills like the hammer or the shocker item or divine castigation. It's all about gear and spell upgrades. Try pulling the mob with your divine debuff. PvP, although I can't comment on the proper PvP servers as a player, I will admit it would be almost impossible for us to get a kill without a group, on the other hand from my experiences in the arena and duels on the blue servers, it's practically impossible for us to get kills. I've had the ranger, bruiser and monk of the top raid guild on my server wailing on me using all their skills unable to kill me, simultaneously. Eventually they gave up and left me alone, running off to kill the other people on my team because it was just too much effort for one kill. In duels, I don't duel healers, no comments. Only class that can beat me is a beserker because of their stupid in-combat health regen. Finally.... I wish to comment again on "All we had was our superior healing abilities (LIKE IT SHOULD BE!!)" - There's just one, obvious problem with this, and that's that the archetype system is designed so that all classes are equally viable in their primary role, which is... healing. Give us more healing power and you end up with the EQ1 problem where a group didn't go anywhere without a cleric, except this time you replace Cleric with Templar.... which was how we were before the combat revamp. Please show me exactly where you were supporting Templar's in your post, because all you seem to be doing is denigrating our abilities and claiming that we need more healing abilities.
Ok.. riiiiight... anyway. Didn't make this thread to be an arguement ground between people who think Templars are fine and who think they need improvement. It's OBVIOUSLY a "needs improvement" thread so I want to hear about other people who agree and what could be done. Message Edited by xyagentguy on 05-02-2006 08:48 PM
But I disagree that the class needs improvement. I will continue posting with my observations, with my opinion that you are incorrect, and you can either focus on the task of proving me wrong, on proving that we need improvement, or you can focus on arguing with me and devolving the thread into senseless bickering that ultimately results in a lock and does nothing for your goal. Edit - removed one sentence as I misread something. Message Edited by Raistlan on 05-03-2006 02:55 PM
what about us needs improvement? our reactives are fine, unless a tank has junk armor then its the tank's fault not ours. WE have GROUP physical mit AND HP buff, how can anyone complain about that? WE have GROUP arcane resists AND HP buff, and in t7, a good majority of raid mobs need magic resistence, so a free 1k is ok in my books WE have a GROUP heal proc that can be put on multiple targets if a person wanted to, again very nice WE have a single target HP buff, and who doesnt need more HP? especially since it also ups melee arts, which help in actually hitting a mob OUR hammer can knock down epic mobs OUR reactives only heal when needed to (when a tank loses HP ya know?) we have massive single target heals SANCTUARY (nuff said) reverence- heal a tank when power is used? very nice on any tank, esp brawlers/crusaders Unyielding Benediction- stoneskin proc "your Stoneskin absorbed 2643 damage" yeah, that needs to be improved /sarcasm off In conclusion, we are a very defense oriented healer, the most defensive IMO, who gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if a healer can cast nukes? if you really think that we need improvements that bad, why do you play a templar? i have played Pre and post LU13, i have seen the "glory days", yeah we were better, but we still own your account has 6 slots, make another character, that should solve all your problems
I'm glad you asked. First off, you're level 61. Go run around Thundering Steppes, Nektulos Forest, Enchanted Lands, Feerrott, Zek, Lavastorm, Solusek's Eye, Everfrost, Permafrost, Sinking Sands, Pillars of Flames, and Clefts of Rujark till you pick up 4-6 free Achievements from all the discovery experience. Pick a path in your achievements and then go hit Tenebrous Tangle and start up the basket quests right there. Clear through a few of those and some of the other solo quests until you hit around level 62 or 63. Now, you should have around 7-8 Achievements at this point, and if you wanted the fast damage, you went with the Intelligence line for Divine Castigation. Otherwise, you may have gone for the Stamina line for Hammer Smite. It's possibly you went Agility however, and you've picked up Wonderous Buckling. In any event, you've now got more tools to solo with. Tip 1: Yaulp is your friend. When soloing, use Yaulp. Tip 2: Old Heritage quests are a good help...even in Tier 7. The Flowing Black Silk Sash is a good source of quick haste. Use Yaulp and this and that's a quick 35% melee haste right there (plus 20% double attack, and 20% increase to DPS). Tip 3: Get yourself a good melee weapon. Now, the better ones are still relatively easy (or cheap) to get, but you'll need to be level 65 or higher for most of those. In the meantime, just get something tradeskilled or better from the broker to work with. Make sure it works with the achievements you've chosen (i.e. - get a good staff for Divine Castigation, etc). Tip 4: If you want to solo, don't show up with Apprentice spells. Get upgraded. Start harvesting if you cant' afford the moonstones or pearls. Find better armor. Get upgraded. Tip 5: Read up before you start jumping to conclusions. Several of our spells have been boosted in the past month or two, and casting timers have been reigned in a bit. There's a lot of helpful Templars on these forums...but not if you're going to just come on in yelling at us that we don't know what we're talking about. I'm pulling in over 300-400 DPS in many soloing situations, and that's not even close to some of the numbers some other Templars can bring in. I have no idea how you feel we can't solo anymore. Hopefully these tips can get you started at least. Good luck. Let me know if you need more help or have any other questions.
First off, who rolled a templar or healer for that matter to solo anyway? And no furies don't count. We heal the best with all our heal procs, stoneskin, and magic ward on top of reactives and single target heals. And I have actually seen another templar break 1k dps on trash mobs in Lyceum while healing in the MT group, so our dps isn't bad at all for a defensive healer. Anyway whenever you feel like templars are underpowered, just be glad you're not an inquisitor. I sure as hell am glad I'm not.
I think with achievements and properly upgraded equipment and spells, (AND most importantly a good strategy) we're glorious once again. On a one instance raid, I regularly parse 900k to well over a million in healing. While every other healer, including shaman wards, are coming in at 600k or lower. You may ask how the wards are being calculated at the moment. Well, admittedly, it's only a comparison between me and the MT shaman. He developed his own parser to parse wards based on keyword macros. So he could see how many wards he cast during a fight and then use the amount of damage warded per ward cast to add to his heal numbers. Now, this is NOT perfect by any means. But it gets the numbers more in line a bit. And I still outheal that bastage by 30 percent or more. OF course, you don't see the amount of damage his debuffs are preventing. So, I'm more than happy to have him in my group. But for pure healing, I haven't been beat yet if I'm in the MT group. As for duelling. The only problem I've had so far in one on one stuff is with summoners. So many interrupts. Soooo many. Message Edited by Zabumtik on 05-03-2006 01:00 AM
First thing, lets not bring Inquisitors, or any other class into this, wether or not we are broken has nothing to do with them. That said, if there is anything we can do, it is heal. My guild parses every raid we have and templars are at the top of the parse 995 times out of 1000 (of course, one doesnt know about shaman, but time will tell on this one). The only time I have seen a druid out heal a templar is when there are large damage AoEs and the druid has their group regen up. As for "bringing things to the table", we may not beable to evac or cast runspeed (granted please show me one shaman or mystic who regularly casts SOW anyway) but we can buff a single targets hp by over 1k, thats pretty popular. If you choose to go the STR line of achievements, you can debuff a mobs attacking abilities by almost 5 levels at apprentice 4. I can keep my group free of control effects for almost 30 seconds every 3 minutes. I can even entertain my group by whipping out my gigantic floating hammer. :smileywink: Soloing... I may not solo super fast, but I can easily manage 200 -240 dps and still have atleast half my power left. I can easily solo a level 61 named triple up. If I dont get adds, I can solo through the earlier parts of Sanctum. Finally- profession hats... there are more important things to fix in the game then giving us an individual graphic for our hats.
All good points and I think some are fair and some are just people trying to convince themselves that Templars are at least on PAR with the other healers... but to me, the simple fact remains that you will NEVER outdamage a druid. Give me all the numbers you want, the druid thread will out do them, I promise. And you will NEVER out de-buff (and arguably buff) a shaman and quite probably outdamage them as well, among a plethora of other unique spells that shaman have. You will NEVER out pvp and NEVER out solo a druid and quite probably a shaman. Sorry, but you want. No matter how many years on the debate team you've had, go to the shaman and druid threads, and they will one-up you. Guarenteed. The arguement on who is the best healer remains to be unseen, at the very best I think Templars are on par with the other healers. At least in the eyes of Sony, Templars SHOULD only be on par with the other healers. The entire nerfing of the Templar and beefing of the other healers was to, in fact, reach a state of equality between the healing capabilities of the all healering classes. I think Sony succeeded, but I believe clerics should have an innate right to be superior healers. If not that, then equal in ALL aspects of healers, including damage, buffing, and debuffing. Message Edited by xyagentguy on 05-03-2006 04:45 AM
It's not unseen. Go download a parser and pull the numbers yourself. Till then, you're just speculating and posting assumptions instead of dealing with actual facts. I've seen numbers. I've posted numbers. Other Templars here have done the same. You're coming in here out of the blue telling us you know the answers...when in fact, you do not. Even then, you're telling us you're level 61 and having trouble soloing...and now you're telling us that you know Templars aren't better healers? With all due respect: How? That's right. How? How do you know Templars aren't better healers? What numbers have you run and in what situations to show you our healing isn't really better? What brought you to that conclusion? Do you actually have facts or are you just posting your beliefs? Honestly, you're going to need better than some petty attacks regarding debate clubs to outshine the minds within this forum. There's some fairly smart folk around these parts, and so far, you're not exactly countering the points they're raising. Certainly, you're not presenting anything about our "formal glory" that seems based on anything more than your personal recollection, and to be frank, I'm fairly sure we're going to want more to go on than your memories. We've all been there, too. A great many of us have been there longer, as well. We take our class seriously, and we take great pains to use facts to show the issues we do see. I recommend you do the same.
Actually templars outheal any other class, as stated multiple times, so your point is moot. Also, instead of posting such an unconstructive post, maybe look at posting one a little bit more positive and see what it is you are really missing. Aside from that all. As a templar I can still prevent more damage than any shaman by using my sign line, my stun and my de-aggro. Maybe it's all situational, but it's better than what you're portraying anyhow.
Well said!! I just actually finished reading every post. Good advice and far be it for me to disagree. I just read a few of the highest level Templar spells (I hate doing that because I like to be surprised) and they look really cool!! I'm just disgruntled because I have such fond memories of Templar's of the past. They took A LOT away from us that I was unhappy about for a long time, but I shouldn't take it out on fine people who also love the Templar! Besides, you're right, I definitely didn't pick the Templar to solo or pvp and you personally have my apology for the grouchiness. It's finals week... ;( And to be perfectly honest, I am such a nice person and after re-evaluating what I've posted, I've come to the conclusion that I did it on purpose. I came to this thread and hit hard, made some controversial claims, and took names. I guess what I really wanted was someone to hit back just as hard and prove me wrong in full force so I have confidance once again in my beloved Templar. Good show! Message Edited by xyagentguy on 05-03-2006 05:47 AM
Completely Agree with Raist. especailly the Gear Part. One thing LU13 did was make upgrades manditory. If you dont keep up with upgrading your gear you will have a MUCH harder time than you should. I cry when I see mid 60's templars wearing Nacre rings for gods sake please upgrade and a power pool in the 3k range. One AoE ( and everything and the dog AoE's in KoS ) and you are dead. Also the i find a lot of templars 'refuse' to use their stuns / pacify. They help alot (Wish they cast faster), yes were not chanters but its a tool in the tool box as it were. Use it. Before LU13 way too many Templars relied on Group Reactive / Single reactive /afk and really you could easily get by with even Adept I's now you still can if you are on the ball but IMHO its manditory to upgrade your gear. Really with the ease of getting plat and the quest rares in KoS theres no reason you cannot easily have at a minimum of your Heals at Adept III. As for we heal the same as other healers. No we still heal more. I Usually parse at 30% higher than the other healers in the MT group durring raids. ( yeah some of this isnt terribly binding but it at least shows Im not worse as many claim ) but Ive yet to see a healer that does better at thier core job than a Templar. Sure they can keep their group up no problem & have better DPS but surpass us at healing no, not yet anyways. Do we have issues. Yup. Are we broken? No not by any stretch. Gemma(s) 70 Templar
