Swashbucklers and Brigands = Neutral?

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine, and I finally felt the need to post about it.

One of the most powerful factions in Freeport are pirates, yet Swashbucklers can't live there? Our TITLE is Dread Pirate. Come on, that should be a slam dunk. I am an old school guy, and I just can't see the lore reason for NOT letting it happen.

Same goes for Brigand. Really, there are no thieves on the roads of Karan? D'lere barely HAS roads.

Now, maybe brigands are not nice people, but Antonia sure had no problem with setting up ASSASSIN squads, so I think a highwayman or two is not exactly a stretch.

There are quite a few of us that play this game that agree with you. However, there are a vocal minority of roleplayers that will have their world come crashing down around them if swashbucklers and brigands were allowed to become neutral.

--Mez

I am not a roleplayer and I am against having brigands becoming neutral. Too many neutrals makes the game bland, IMO.

This game has been bland for years. A few more classes going neutral will not add to this fact. Most of the player base are either in their guild halls/houses or they are in TS, PS, or instances, and it's been this way since the addition of guild halls. There is no reason to go to home cities anymore except for the various holidays. If I have to reforge, I still go to VI. The majority of the servers are mere ghost towns, and channel chat can go for quiet a long time on Unrest.

Letting my "good" swashbuckler betray to Freeport and remain a swashbuckler won't ruin your game. Even if a roleplayer was offended by my swashbuckler being evil, all they have to do is /ignore Ruckus. I promise to leave them alone. When they allowed 8 other classes to become neutral, it only irked a few people...the rest of us...did...not...care.

the Assassins of Qeynos, ie the Eyes of Bayle, are not 'Assassins' in the manner your thinking. they are not death squads patrolling Qeynos. they are, in essence, an Anti-terroist unit. they learn the methods and techniques of Assassins as a means to counter the actual assassins.

the Brig/Swash thing is about methodolgy. even your title, the 'dread pirate' and your epic, are from the Princess Bride movie. you'll note that 'dread pirate roberts' is in essence a con artist. he uses the name to 'inspire the necessary fear' to make ships surrender without a fight. when the title changes hands, they put into port, fire the crew, hire a new crew, with the former 'dread pirate' as first mate and making sure the crew buys the story of the new captain being Roberts.

a swashbuckler in Eq2 is a con artist, first and foremost. he wants to be your friend. he wants to be considered your pal, so that when he asks to borrow 200 platinum for a repair job to a buggy he may or may not own, you'll just hand it over. the requires earning trust. that requires time spent building a repoire. This methodolgy gets you killed in Freeport, where I can just take that 200 plat after stabbing you in the back and dumping your body in the ocean. and the guard either just doesn't care/needs to be bribed, or I can tell them you were a qeynos sympathizer.

A swashy trying to ply his trade of cons and long term investments in gullible folks to make thousands of plat over a longer time, would be killed by his own 'shipmates' in favor of less amounts but quick returns. that's how Freeport operates. they would rather murder the guy with 400plat on his person, then spend months becoming his friend and milking 2000 plat from him over the course of a year. and murdering your guildmates in freeport is not frowned upon. in fact it's encouraged. weeding out the 'weak' in favor of the 'strong'

Brigands on the other hand, are like you put, Highwaymen/thug types. they aren't looking to run cons, or weasel into your life and all your money in the bank. they are looking only for the money you are carrying on you. and anything else on you that's fencable/sellable. and they'd prefer to take it over your dead body. there's no place for them in Qeynos. they are outlaws, no guild would support them, they'd be hunted down by the guard. about the only friends they might have would be the Bloodsabers, but that groups power has long since been broken after the war of the plagues. and even then, your brig would have to be a follower of Bertox to get in with them.

his methods would get him arrested. he's got no safehouse/haven in the city walls. no place to learn his trade.

in short, a brig in qeynos would be arrested and put in jail, and a swashy in Freeport would be murdered by his own guild for being weak.

That's great for RP immersion...now what about reality?

As usual Rainmare and myself don't agree on a topic. Well, here goes.

Freeport has a long standing tradition of Pirates. Not just pirates but actually the flamboyant raider, devil-may-care cavalier attitude and in-your-face-Lucan-doesn't-own-us attitude that marks them as swashbucklers. The Seafury Buccaneers are patterned off of the kind of pirates that Swashbucklers naturally gravitate towards. They are also the scout guild of Freeport! Everything in Lore suggests that the Swashbuckler is alive and well in Freeport.

And the entire town of Freeport is all about boot licking. If they just went around killing the weak for a quick profit the place would be a ghost town in a matter of days. There is this guy named Lucan D'Lere who demands people follow his laws. His private goon squad makes examples of people who don't make the proper bribes and pay the proper respect. Sure, long knives are common in Freeport but it isn't the main way things are done.

Freeport has plenty of con men who are always trying to 'help' you and find you a 'great deal' and get you in on the 'next big thing' and they always have 'powerful friends' in 'high places' that will bail you out of trouble. Enough of them that only desperate people listen to that kind of talk. Too bad being desperate is an all together too common thing in Freeport.

Freeport has room for every kind of thief. From back alley muggers, to second story breaking and entering types, to confidence men and even the occasional pickpocket. Guess what? Swashbuckers and Brigs are equally likely to do either. Brigs lie just as well as a Swashbuckler. Maybe more effectively since they aren't trying to project that 'I'm a Pirate' image.

And it isn't like Qeynos doesn't have thieves. Not only are there thieves in Qeynos, there is an organized smuggling ring run by P.T. Irontoe and Flippy that also doubles as an unofficial thieves' guild. Why does it exist? So the Circle of Ten can keep tabs on it.

Antonica actually has more bandits than D'Lere does. Highwaymen plague the roads of Antonica. Windstalker village is practically run by bandits.

Why some silly secret anti-assassin organization was created and legitimized to give Qeynos Assassins is beyond me. Trying to explain how this goes from being a secret society to "anyone is welcome to become one" also makes absolutely no sense. The Royal Assassin retirement plan is underfunded so we're allowing them to openly teach their techniques to make up the difference?

Rangers on the other hand, it never made sense to allow druids in both cities but not rangers. Rangers after all are just slightly druidic hunters.

I completely agree.

I am a roleplayer, but the non-RP argument is the best one of all here. It is just common sense that in a fantasy based game that contains alignment, that not every class should be neutral. That would be the blandest, most boring option possible. Some classes are designed to be good or evil, and even if the rationale from SOE is not the best in every case, that design is what it is and SOE does not need to be spending more of their precious development time re-designing the alignment system yet again for the few people who want to have a home city in the opposite place that the class they want to play is based. There are far more important things to worry about.

It is not as if the alignments are not known when you chose the class. Don't choose deliberately choose a class with the opposite alignment to the one you want and then come complaining to the forums about the restrictions that come with your own choice. The game has been around 10 years now, the class alignments are not headline news.

People complaining about classes designed as Qeynos-based with "why can't I be based in Freeport?" are as dumb as people complaining about choosing a mage caster class and then saying "why can't I wear plate?".

But it will go on...there are always those few who want...

"WAH WAH I want a Beserker/Wizard dual class with an elemental pet that Conjies get and I want to live anywhere and be liked by everyone and yet still kill anyone I like easily".

These people need to be ignored. And on this one, I think SOE will just ignore them.

heh me and Meirril don't see eye to eye on much.

Now I would say, in my own opinion, the only Neutral Classes in the game should have been bards, warriors, brawlers and druids.

But having characters in both cities, and knowing about the Seafury Buccaneers. the Buccaneers are NOT swashbucklers. they are not con men. in fact, the Seafury Buccaneers are all cut throat killers, slavers, and certainly cull thier 'weak' by killing those that are not as violent or willing to kill as the rest of them are.

It's shown in many quests, and in many NPC talks, that in freeport, murder is 100% okay. all you have to to is say your victim was a 'qeynos sympathizer' or bribe the guard, which is incredibly easy in Freeport...provided one even sees you. in fact, the lunatic that claims she's Queen Bayle, it surprises your character someone hasn't offed her yet, and Lucan's guard basically say that Lucan protects her because they use her as a propaganda set up about how being a qeynos sympathizer will make you insane.

even Lucan isn't as 'in control' of Freeport as people want to believe. Longshadow Alley is a perfect example of that. Opal's infiltration of all the major factions outside of the Militia is another.

The swashbuckler would be eaten alive by the Seafury Buccaneers. and certainly have his throat slit within a few weeks at best.


as to the Eyes of Bayle going public, that was because of other members of the Circle of Ten. particularly the members that were representing of the Guard. They basically accused the Eye of going 'rogue' and Antonia and the Eye of Bayle decided the best course was to go public, as being secretive outside of the Circle was making them a scapegoat to blame, and going public allows them to recruit others and increase their number.

just like the Freeport rangers are basically led by a former green hood on a fanatic mission to kill a specific orc and any and all orcs aligned with him for the death of his lover/wife. he made a deal with lucan for sanctuary in freeport to continue his zealous hunt, in exchange to training lucan's forces in long range archery and tracking.

now we all know the biggest reason for that particular choice was because of the popularity of Assassin's Creed. it;s pretty blatantly seen even in the outfit the give the 'good assassin'. but it doesn't make it any less from an rp standpoint why a swashy would prolly get eaten alive in freeport. or that a brig would find himself quickly in jail in qeynos.

I think the main disagreement here is what makes a swashbuckler. Swashbucklers are charming. Swashbucklers are daring. Swashbucklers are adventurous. Swashbucklers walk with a swagger and brag about their exploits. That doesn't make them con men. It means they use intimidation and charisma to force their opponents into a position to where they can exploit them. And by exploit, I mean with a blade. The kind of 'force of personality' that a Swashbuckler uses is a very temporary kind of thing. It buys them a moment of hesitation from their opponent.

Otherwise Swashbucklers are all about grand sweeping movements (aka lots of AoEs) and daring assaults. While they might use stealth and guile to position themselves they aren't about sticking to the shadows. And they don't practice any kind of long term manipulation. If your looking for that look at bards and enchanters. The real con men in EQ2 would be troubadours.

Brigs on the other hand do it the hard way. Need an opportunity? Stab here, then you can shift around to their back while they gasp for breath. Need another? Pommel strike to the face and scurry around again. Brigs are all about the backstab. No big movements, keep everything small and as brutal as possible. Stick it in deep and twist the blade.

As for who is really neutral? Nobody really. Warriors should be found everywhere. Freeport cuts its own ties to the monks, neither class should support them after what Lucan did at the Battle of Defiance. If Lucan is going to go around "stealing" the techniques of the Ashen Order they he should "steal" his own paladin training and raise a bunch of Lucanic Paladins. He hates the Ashen Order, why does he want a bunch of people around that will look up to them? Warriors are the heart of the Freeport Milita, so it should be just warriors and shadowknights in Freeport.

There isn't any special love for brigands anywhere. Thieves are just thieves. They should exist in every city, even in good and noble Qeynos. It isn't like they are paid murderers. Swashbucklers should exist in both cities (if they exist at all). Spread equally amongst Freeport, Qeynos, The Far Seas Trading Company and the various pirate clans.

Bards should be everywhere and there isn't anything good or evil about being a troubadour or dirge. Just a different outlook really.

Rangers and Druids should be linked. If one exists in a community, so should the other. Freeport is iffy if they should exist there. Mainly because Lucan demanded he be worshiped to the exclusion of all other gods. Druids generally follow Karana or Tunare, but some follow no god. I can't really see them turning to the Overlord.

Inquisitors are more or less created by the Overlord to enforce his worship. Having them in Qeynos just doesn't make sense. Or we should see an Inquisition in Qeynos to stamp out the worship of Bertoxulous (and house to house searches in Qeynos). Templars are the kinder gentler version that developed in Qeynos and shouldn't of seen the light of day in the much more polarized Freeport.

Shaman got what they deserved as far as the two factions go. The more evil defilers are found amongst people willing to accept coercion. The follow the spirits type mystics are amongst the more caring and community minded peoples.

Magic is a lot more neutral than the other classes. Every type of magic belongs in Freeport. Not only was the academy well founded there, but Lucan would actively encourage more research into any kind of magic that would give Freeport more power. Making excuses for Conjurors and Illusionists to be Qeynos exclusive makes no sense. Likewise making excuses for coercers to exist in Qeynos doesn't make sense. People that subvert the will of others shouldn't be openly allowed in the good loving Qeynos. With an alternative like Illusionists around, coercion and charm magic should be banned in Qeynos. Necromancy should of course remain banned in Qeynos due to a long history of opposing Necromancy (and fighting with them).

Contrived excuses are still contrived. Exposing the existence of a secret group of assassins working for the queen is one thing. Encouraging the citizens to take up the use of poisoned blades and assassination techniques, to stylize themselves as "people that kill other people for money" goes beyond that to the level of the absurd. One assassin in the employee of the Queen as a counter assassin is gaining knowledge of the enemy and their techniques. A few in the Queen's employee raises suspicion that she employs them to enforce her will. Openly accepting adventurers that claim to be assassins means a society that embraces assassination.

Wow, I am really happy with this discussion! Meirril and Rainmare, lot of great points, and I can really see where both of you are coming from.

Caethre, you might need to pump the brakes a little. Take a breather. Its a discussion, no one is WAH WAHing here, and a quick heads up, if you don't like complaining, you might not want to head to anything called "Forums"

I guess I could see where you are coming from Rain, but I fear a lot of your argument really stems from an RP stand point considering the Seafury and their tactics. Although, having recently done the scout questline in FP (yes I have lots of toons in ALL cities), I have to note that they use trickery and coercion to get to be the best faction in FP as much as they use death and mayhem.

One more point, don't forget in both the novel and the movie, the Dread Pirate Roberts is known for his ruthlessness and never leaves captives alive. Not exactly a Qeynosian style.

My feeling here, and I agree with the Assassin's creed thing, but having the Eye of Bayle is such a lore stretch as to be laughable. So the Queen is ok with some ghost and an ancestor floating around sowing dissent, but when she hears trouble in the citizenry, out come the knives? And not just a private secret police, but any Tom, Dick or Harry who wants to join up? I can't think of many "good" countries with Secret Police standing around the city hidden and watching. Even Lucan will just outright execute you (and I wonder how many of those he tosses into the pit are brigands who steal from the wrong person. In Freeport, I see it not if you steal, its who you stole from. I can't imagine that you have a lot of people with overdue books from the Academy...

All this being said, the truth is moving to Freeport and going Brigand would probably offer more groups anyway. *le sigh*

Although, having read your reasoning for the evil Ranger corps, I am DAMN tempted to make one now. That is pretty dame awesome.

All these long winded posts are coming from individual perceptions of how each person "sees and feels" about how a character class is aligned. Your thoughts and feelings only matter to you. The majority of the player base just doesn't care about what you think in regards to this topic. We play to quest, tradeskill, solo, duo, do heroic content, and raid. Eight classes are limited on their questing options, because if we betray to the opposing city, we're stuck having to play a lesser skilled and lesser mastered/grandmastered character.

If all classes finally went neutral today, would that mess up your game so much that you'd feel compelled to quit?

It is possible to get your "good" character to be "evil" on non-PvP servers; it just costs you $50 to do so. 18 out of 26 classes can flounce back and forth between the alignment options. 18 classes have access to doing all quests in the game without having any penalty for doing so. (Penalty defined as: not having to relearn their new class and not having to pay (plat or SC) to get mastered/grandmastered)

All classes have been neutral on PvP for a long time, just finally flip the switch already and make it fair and balanced on the PvE servers once and for all.

Playing a video game to just to house decorate, roleplay, and tradeskill good-aligned high elves sounds equally bland to me. Blandness goes both ways. What floats your boat would sink my boat, and vice versa. At launch, the majority of classes were good or evil (16/24). Because of financial reasons, SOE allowed 8 more classes to become neutral, yet you still play the game. The game wasn't ruined because of that, was it? They rewrote the lore behind those 8 classes going neutral, and life went on. They didn't even bother rewriting the lore when they allowed all 24 original classes to be neutral on PvP.

I started at launch as a swashbuckler, because all of my EQ1 friends decided to play "good" aligned classes. If they said they were going to make evil aligned characters, I'd be playing a brigand now. The EQ1 rogue that I had was a half elf from Freeport, but I could have easily made him from Qeynos. I was fine with being "good only" on my character in EQ2, UNTIL SOE allowed 8 other classes to be neutral. I'd love to do the evil aligned quests as a swashbuckler, and I'm not paying $50 to do so. I have a brigand, and I hate the playstyle of the class. This is why I want to be an evil swashbuckler.

I still do not get the "story" that they come up with "good" aligned assassins and bruisers and "evil" aligned rangers and monks. Those 4 classes being able to go either way still boggles my mind...but an evil swashbuckler and a good brigand just doesn't float with you role players...

I've yet to read one request on the forums for mages to be allowed to wear plate (other than appearance armor, which can be done, thanks to SC armor!) This point you just made has nothing to do with the last 8 classes to be neutral. This is a dumb comparison to make to try to support your argument on this topic.

Those of us that want full neutrality on all 26 classes have our own reasons (again, my reason is mostly for questing). We're not asking to have our classes turned into super hybrids of awesome overpoweredness.

/ignore is the best thing that is available to you in this game.

If SOE did make all classes neutral, just /ignore the evil swashbuckler that ran past you. It's not like you can tell who is good or evil aligned anyways in game. That ratonga dirge that just ran past you: you cannot tell if they are an old school ratonga that started out at launch in Freeport, or if it is a newer ratonga dirge that started out in New Halas. That shadowknight that just ran past you could be based in Qeynos, because he started out on the dead PvP server in Qeynos. He then paid SOE $25 to move to the AB server.

It sounds like you only interact with the few people in your guild or the small % of people who still roleplay on AB. Talk about boring and isolating yourself from the rest of the population on AB.

actually, yes. if they made paladins neutral, I'd quit. and frankly even if I wanted to PvP, the fact paladins are neutral there is more then enough for me to not ever want to set foot on the pvp server.

as to the good assassin/good Brusier and the evil monk/evil ranger is very, very easy.

Good Assassins are a special forces/anti-terrorist unit. using assassin techniques to counter the freeport/neriak assassins. fighting fire with fire, so to speak. they are in the story on a recuriting binge not only because they are more free to now that Antonia has had them go public, but because of groups like the Ebon Mask, now that we know Neriak is still very much a thriving city. Qeynos Assassins are in essence Navy SEALS/Army Rangers/the Isreal group known only as 'The Unit', ect.

Good Bruisers are, for lack of a better term, Eq2's version of 'Fight Club' without the anarchist tone. they are street fighters, who just enjoy a good fight. go figure that most of them in the story are Dwarves and Barbarians. they were made 'legitimate' when one of there guys challenged a monk to a fight, and beat him in quick order. now granted the monk does kinda get sucker punched, but the head of the order allows it to teach that in the 'real world' there aren't 'rules of conduct' before a fight or during. the monks of Qeynos are more like Olympic martial arts. and the Bruisers are more like fighters in the MMA Octagon.

Evil Rangers basically made a deal with the devil. they are more militant then the Green Hoods against the Orc as a race. the original 'Red Hood' bargain was 'give me sanctuary to hunt the orc(s) that killed my signifigant other' and lucan said 'alright, as long as you train others in your skillset' and he was so blinded by his anger that he went into that deal wholeheartedly. the Red Hoods as they are now remind me of the story 'A most dangerous game'. they are in it for the thrill of the hunt, and nothing is more thrilling to hunt then something sentient that can reason and fight back.

Evil Monks were in Eq1. and they just brought them back. the Court of Pain was/is a strict monk order, they are Cazites, who tout that causing pain brings fear. they harshly beat/hurt their young initiates to make them fear their elders. and believe causing pain to others inspires fear, once your a sufficent rank that they deem you worthy to let loose on the world at large. they have been ousted from Sebilis for being Cazites rather then worship Venril.

they state, pretty blatantly, that they are there in freeport to train Iksar. if a softskin wants to try and learn the way of fist and tail, they are free to, but if they die or are crippled trying, the Iksar say 'serves you right'.

People can start up good shadowknights on PvP and move them to Oasis to follow you around, just to annoy you. It's not worth the time and money to do so.

Very, very easy for you, because you and less than 1% of the player population care about this topic. Very few cared at launch, and even less care now. If a good brigand is spotted in your home city and it offends you, just put them on /ignore and be done with it and move on. If an evil swashbuckler is spotted in Freeport, then just ignore him. He's probably just doing evil aligned city quests. Oh wait, your good paladin would have no need to go to Freeport.

I suppose all modern day pirates that are on the oceans are brigands and none of them are ever viewed as a swashbuckler. A rogue is a rogue, and SOE's waste of time making unique classes (swashbuckler/brigand) at launch that brought us pirate-like classes just makes it difficult for them to keep having to rebalance classes every few years. All we needed at launch was: rogue, ranger, bard, and beastlord. Likewise with a bunch of other classes like monks, shaman, druid, etc.

and on that Rukus, I agree. they probably shouldn't have severed the classes in 2, and gave each half an ideology/methodology to include them in Lucan's Freeport or Antonia's Qeynos. I'd been much happier with Enchanter/Rogue/Warrior/Monk/Bard/Druid/Cleric/Shaman/Wizard. then they could have kept pally/sk, necro/conjy, as their end spectrum classes.

Unfortunately, they did slice most classes in two. the Brig and the Swash in particular are portrayed in such manner that a swash would get eaten alive in Freeport. the way he operates would get him killed by the brigands he's working with for wasting their time. the swashy is a charmer, a con man, he's pretty much described how most other games describe a bard in his manner of doing things. flamboyant and over the top in order to catch you off guard in a fight and charming and smooth talking in social standings so he can slip that ring off your finger without you noticing when he kisses your hand. that **** would get him killed in Freeport under Lucan's reign. that kind of thing would make him a lightning rod of suspicion, and all it takes to get executed/detained permenantly is for a guard to get suspicious.

Lucan's Militia can make up anything they want after that.

likewise, they made the Brigand a gangbanger-ish Thug. all about brute force and intimidation via shoving thier dagger in your kneecap because they heard a jewel clink in your money purse. even PT Irontoe and Fippy the 4th don't condone that kind of an operation, as they prefer, a much more low profile/mafiaish organization. even the Circle of the Unseen Hand doesn't operate like that, and that is, at least as for as Eq2 is concerned, the oldest 'mafia' style organization in existance. randomly killing people is frowned upon, and investigated and dealt with.

Highwayman style approach like Brigands use, wouldn't be allowed in Qeynos, even by their own 'Thieves Guild' that PT apparently runs. so not only do they have the Guard on them cause of them being well thieves and thugs and killers, but the 'guild' in Qeynos would also turn them over to protect it's own rear/reputation.

The whole Necro vs Conjy thing makes no sense. Conjurors aren't diametrically opposed to Necromancy like Paladins and Shadowknights.

Shadowknights are basically half necromancers. Back in the EQ1 days (and early EQ2) they have skeleton minions. They still life tap and drain power from dying creatures. They are from an arcane, not a divine background. They don't found their service to any particular deity.

Paladins on the other hands are exemplars of good. EQ1 paladins are all tied to good deities. EQ2's paladins are founts of good and divine magic...even without serving any deity. They are just naturally opposed to evil and undeath. They still have abilities that work better against undead and "evil" (fyi: evil mechanically is "not on the good city faction").

Necromancy is the short cut of animating what was already alive. Actually, in the EQ2 universe it seems to be taking advantage of the curse of undeath and controlling the creatures made from it, plus an unhealthy obsession over magic that affects a creature's life force.

Conjurors are about summoning elemental beings and manipulating elemental forces, with a small dose of summoning and creating other things that makes them somewhat like Mages from EQ1. That isn't opposed to Necromancy at all. Actually Dartain is an example of someone that has mastered both kinds of magic and fused them together. He uses necromantic theory but instead of manipulating the life forces of other humanoids, he is manipulating the elemental forces that animate earth.

The differences between Necromancers and Conjurors are the choice in media they are willing to work with. Necromancers prefer to work with life and that which was living. Conjurors prefer to work with the elements. They get different results from what they specialize in but their most basic techniques make them very similar. There shouldn't be any "hate" between them and any city that accepts Necromancers shouldn't have any problem with Conjurors.

Whilst I disagree with pretty much every word you say on this entire subject, this is the truth. Probably a lot less than 1%.

There are issues that actually need developer attention in game. This is certainly not one of them.

Yeah, quite a few of the original opposites don't really fit very well into a good/evil classification imho. Or, rather I see quite a few that can fairly easily fit into the evil spectrum but fewer that fit into good. Really, the vast majority to me fit most easily into neutral where actions determine your alignment more readily than your class.

I really only see templars and paladins as inherently good. I see SKs, defilers, coercers, inquisitors and necros as inherently evil. The rest I pretty much view as varying shades of gray including assassins and brigands.

But, the game started with two opposing factions so they were obliged to try to force classes into being diametrically opposed even though they don't really fit the job description.

I personally could even see paladins and templars fitting into a dark role but I struggle with the premise of a good SK or good necro. A good SK just seems like an oxymoron.

To the OP, I have no problem with them making the rogue classes neutral. Knowing that the code was already written courtesy of the PVP server it doesn't seem like it would take much effort to make the change on the PVE servers.

This is a great post.

Reality, and by that I mean fantastic reality, shouldn't be so cut and dried, black and white. Things don't work like that in a realistic and gritty fantasy world. There are shades of gray in between. There are paladins, or holy warriors, of all faiths and "alignments". A swashbuckler and hero for on faction is a dreaded pirate for another.

We have the faction system in place to handle this. It just needs a little rework. Classes shouldn't necessarily be inherently tied to a faction. It's a little late in the game for them to fix this all, but some classes could be straightened out. Hopefully EQN will have a better system in place.