I have a level 10 illusionist and after playing dps classes (60 wizard and 53 ranger), I'm really impressed with illusionist dps. On the island im cleaning groups up as fast as any tier 1 dps class. My question is: does this change at some point or is illusionist a decent dps dealer in upper levels?
I'm guessing illusionist dps isn't that bad if you consider all forms of damage, including proc buffs you put on others or haste etc... As far as solo...personae is just awesome. I know he probably doesn't put out the same dps as other pets or specific charmed mobs, but everything else he does and his survivability makes up for it.
some things to consider 1. for a lvl 10 illu on the isle i would think that pretty much all stuff cons green already? you shouldnt be surprised to feel strong against green mobs. 2. i dont know if you have started any other chars recently, but in no case should you compare your time with your wiz or ranger when you have been on the isle to the time with your illu now. And even less should you compare a high lvl char to a low lvl one. its also hard to compare to any characters on the isle as you usually dont know if they are played by a real newb or by a seasoned player, which makes a huge difference. there have been a lot of changes since you started your first chars. i know my scout could easily one shot stuff on the isle when i started, for my fighter it took 2 hits and my healer was so strong he seemed to survive everything no matter how many mobs beat on him, while my mage was so fragile a mob sneezing was killing him already. but ... some of my chars i started pre LU 13 and some i started before lvl 20 changes, so there is no valid comparison really. you would have to take a newly created wiz and play him up to lvl 10 now before you could say your illu is doing T1 dps and can match wiz dps. 3. but... illu are mages after all, so yes, we are supposed to do some damage. we always beat templar in dps and if the fury has to heal, we also own fury. We even can outdamage wiz if* he is slacking. A general rule is, a good played illu with good spell upgrades can outdamage a poorly played T1 class with poor spell upgrades. But a mediocre T1 class will own a mediocre illu by miles. 4. and finally. Our personae is said to be a bit overpowered at lower lvl atm. I don’t know if its true as I havent played a low lvl illu in comparison to any other class recently. I only have a lowbie necro on the isle and I too feel very strong with him. Fighting 2 even con mobs and getting another 2 adds usually isnt even a close fight. Considering that necro cannot mez and have to take them on all at once I would think he is doing really fine. At the other hand I have seen bruiser, pally etc on the isle handling adds and groups just as fine so I rather think its more a general design of the low lvl game to give classes the feeling to be strong. They want encourage new ppl to keep playing of course and to make low chars weak and frustrate them at the isle wouldn’t be very smart. Anyhow it will change for illusinist at higher lvl a bit as your personae becomes less efficient. It will stay a useful tool but nothing that you really would consider to be a tank. This will automatically reduce your dps while soloing as you have to focus on stuns, mez etc more… All in all you will feel ok for soloing and also dps wise at higher lvl but not really too strong.
thanks for the replies. So far I'm having fun w/ her. She's at level 16 after about 5hrs of play; great soloer for groups and up to ^^ heroics although close call. Thats with all adept spells and crap armor.
The recast timer on the phantasmal line is glorious low, hence the dps at low lvls I did the Queen's Colony with a warlock, troubador, ranger and illusionist, and the illu was much faster, purely because of the low recast on the phantasmal spell.
If you are diligent with your prismatic and color shower spells, and use your pets effectively, you do respectable DPS. People really have the wrong idea about this, and anybody experienced with the illusionist class will tell you that this is the reality. Illusionists are not horrible DPS at all. The thing is...I don't think we're supposed to be capable of this kind of DPS, really. We are supposed to be capable of really confusing and controlling the mobs. This is the odd thing about the class and some evidence that SoE really is confused here; we should be slowing, buffing, providing outstanding regens, etc...and how about actually casting illusions. Two illusionists on a raid should make a HUGE difference. But because we generally can't touch epic mobs, and can only throw around a couple of legerity and dynamisms, the class is questionably useful for the big fights. Put it this way; go to any raiding guild and ask them what class is expendable, as in, "pick one class that you will never bring on a raid again". I'd bet you all my plat it would be almost unanimously the illusionist class. Ask the same question regarding removing a class from the game; again, players would say illusionist. I know this because people say it now. On the other hand, many people play their characters with a lack of thought. Conjurors are the worst here; they seem to believe if they are not AEing constantly, they are being oppressed. It happens all the time; I have actually heard people say that if you need a mez'r to win a fight then you should not be fighting that fight, because you can't use max DPS so what's the point. I mean...is this what the game boils down to for many? Simply pushing up DPS numbers? It's so immature. Message Edited by MyChatBot on 02-28-200607:00 AM
maybe one way to figure it out would be: Is the raid dps higher or lower with an enchanter there (considering enchanter dps + dps allowed to others...regen power = more dps for others, buffs, etc...) or with another dps class in its place and the loss of boosting others dps? I think you might also consider some of the AA skills like hate reduction. It will allow other dps classes to pump out even more damage without getting killed. Message Edited by bluejello on 02-28-200606:57 AM
There it is again. Zerg. It's not about "is the dps higher". It's about, "were there less deaths, and did we win elegantly and with control". In EQ1, on my server, there were all kinds of guilds. Most of them were zergs. There were two guilds, relatively low numbers, that people envied because they won the same fights with less people, and were subsequently uniformly better equipped (same number of wins / a third of the people = better equipped players); I had the distinction of being in one of these guilds. In the end, they dominated the server; players tended to be proud of the accomplishments because it didn't just involve throwing 100 people at it, it involved planning and tactics. Every classes abilities were utilized, and a balance was found; any player that felt that they had to use their primary skill all the time and refused to play tactically, would not last in the guild. Turnover was low because the group was tight, and understood how to work most effectively in any combination of classes. Members of these guilds gained reputations for being smart players, and were saught after by mixed groups or as guests on other raids. But now, in every game, it's all just speed and dps, even if it means losing the fight. Many classes get the shaft because players have judged them as being unneccesary...because their class doesn't focus on dps. I mean, why have a character at all? Why not just have a scrolling set of numbers that you work with to try and get the totals higher? Yesterday, in permafrost, heading to the end. These are not insanely hard fights. But we wiped twice because the conjuror would not allow me to control the adds. Finally, it came down; STOP IT OR LEAVE. Guess what...next attempt, we won the fight, easily. The conjuror whined, "but I wasn't doing max dps, I'm being held back". How the hell do you think an illusionist feels when you insist on waking up every mob in every fight, even at the cost of wiping the group? Message Edited by MyChatBot on 02-28-200607:13 AM
MyChatBot wrote: ... The thing is...I don't think we're supposed to be capable of this kind of DPS, really. We are supposed to be capable of really confusing and controlling the mobs. This is the odd thing about the class and some evidence that SoE really is confused here; we should be slowing, buffing, providing outstanding regens, etc...and how about actually casting illusions. ... who determines what we are supposed to be or to do? Yes,we are able to do decent damage, yet we are still doing the lowest of all mage classes. isnt this how it is supposed to be? whats wrong with that? where comes this mindset from that we are doing "too much" damage as long as we are not the worst of all including healer and fighter? have enchanter really so little clue about what other (mage) classes are able to do beside being pure dps? do we really all believe this whining crap that omg* sorcerer (and summoner) do not bring anything to the table but damage? are we really so blind and think that enchanter are the only mage class that has buffs? or stuns? or group enhancing abilities like procs? and other "utility" including power restoring? we may have the most diverse utility of all mages but this doesnt mean that others have zero. So how come we feel not entitled to do decent damage while other mages don’t feel the same about using decent utility? For what odd reason do we feel as if being low dps would be adequat for the enchanter class? Where does our guilty conscience come from about being able to do nice damage? Do you think a conjuror also feels guilty for his STA buff? Or for passing out his power essence? Or for putting his proc buff on other players? Or for using his pet to tank in a group? Do you think a warlock feels guilty for keeping a mob stunned? Or for boosting the groups focus? Or for casting his dmg proc buffs on other players? Or for *gasp* keeping the MT in power with his 3 different tools he got for this? Other mage classes have decent utility, yet they don’t beat enchanter in this area. Enchanter have decent damage, yet they are not able to beat any other mage class in this area. IMO that’s exactly how it is supposed to be.
have a level 10 illusionist and after playing dps classes (60 wizard and 53 ranger), I'm really impressed with illusionist dps. On the island im cleaning groups up as fast as any tier 1 dps class. My question is: does this change at some point or is illusionist a decent dps dealer in upper levels? Yes it does change, but I would say in all fairness we are "decent" at dealing direct DPS. Noone will ever want you in a group because of your direct DPS abilities, however it does give you the ability solo. Illusionists are really about "enhancing" the other members of the group and increasing the "overall" DPS of a group by a great deal. It is my opinion that an Illusionist will increase the DPS of a full group by more then any other one class could. This is about buffs, debuffs, stifles and stuns mainly though, it is not about DD or DoT damage spells. It is a fun class up to the high levels at which point the "**** on epics" problem will rear its ugly head and you become a truely 3rd class citizen of Norrath, but that is another discusison altogether.
I keep seeing people claim illusionists have "debuffs". I can count 1 pure debuff line that we have, the Dissapoitment line. Though I supposed the Gloom(or whatever it is called now) line is also a "debuff", but that gives us a total of 2 debuffs. And Bards increase the DPS of a group by FAR more than an Illusionist can. Troubadors have haste(although fairly weak, but it's a group buff), a spell proc line(does about the same damage as ours, but is 30% and is also group wide). They can increase STR so there's more melee DPS. They also have more debuffs than Illusionists do. We don't enchance very much, our INT/WIS buff can be better replaced by a wizard, and our power/resist buff isn't that big of a deal considering that all mages get the power portion. Then we get to breeze, the only useful thing we have, and only then for pure grind groups, though bards are a much better option than an illusionist because their buffs are a lot better. Have a group with a fighter, healer, 3 mages, grab a troubador, have a group with a fighter, healer 3 scouts/fighters, grab a dirge. The damage increase for each of those groups is just crazy.
I keep seeing people claim illusionists have "debuffs". I can count 1 pure debuff line that we have, the Dissapoitment line. Though I supposed the Gloom(or whatever it is called now) line is also a "debuff", but that gives us a total of 2 debuffs. Despell Magic, binding Light, Nightmare, Tormenting Visions, Misfortune, Wither Hope and Lobotomize This is just a few of the spells that contain “debuff†components (that I can think of hehe). Maybe “pure†is where we differ, I don’t remember using the term “pure� Reducing Magic mitigation on mobs can be extremely valuable (and increase the overall DPS of a group by a great deal depending on the classes present) even if it is only a “proc†on another spell. And Bards increase the DPS of a group by FAR more than an Illusionist can. How? I don’t see your logic? I can haste-breeze, increase magic damage, add procs, stun and stifle (less interrupts) mezz adds (more DPS focused on one mob) among many other things. These things combined with eliviating the need for a second healer (room for another DPS) and the fact that our benefits provide exponential returns based on group size (note I said we can add more DPS to a FULL GROUP then any other one class and I stand by this belief). Believe what you want (we certainly have our problems with “gimpy-ness†from SOE) but I truly believe that no other class could increase the overall DPS output of a full group as much as an Illusionist (at least not in any situation I have ever seen outside of Epics).
Dispell Magic is common to all mages Blinding Light is a root with stiffle? not a debuff Tormenting Visions (and its associated upgrades) are not a debuff but a dot with a DD at termination (14) Gloom >> (28) Nightmare >> (42) Wither Hope >> (56) Devour Hope all the same line of spells (yes it does have a debuff componet to it but you cannot count it as multiple debuffs, u use what ever is the best at your level) Misfortune (debuff) So I count two just like Pinski, 3 if you count Dispel Magic that all mages get (or used to before they revamped levels 1-19) and Bards DO have more overall group enchancing ablities. I'd suggest you actually take a look at a Troubs ablities and see what exactly they CAN do. here are a few screenies to give you an idea (they have enough group based buffs that you could have 2 in a group and still not have every one of them on). Screenshots taken from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/callaghan4766/troubador.html I know,I wish I had to chooise between group buffs because I have this much flexablity in what I can give a group. Our single target versions are more powerfull but we are limited to what we can do by buffing a max of 5 people .. they get 5 group buffs! (btw [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] why is the Effect radius of bards so much bigger then ours?)
The Effect Radius of bards is the same as ours and any other group buffs. Breeze/Bria's both only have a 30m range, while all group buffs have a 50m range. And the above post displays exactly the buffs that a troubador adds which more than rival, they destroy our buffs. You forgot precision of the maestro(an awesome buff for casters and other classes once/if they fix it), soo, yah. Btw pre-revamp we actually had a 3rd debuff, the Tormenting Vision line had a 5% chance to proc a DPS debuff. You know what, I want that back, screw the extra damage at the end of the spell. Gimme my debuff back. I would be happy as hell if I had a debuff that did that again. Btw dispel magic, have you actually seen it remove something from a mob yet? In fact, I think sneezing at a mob does more than dispel magic
Amen, Brother zitha. For some reason lots of people like to point to our class and say "a lot of the damage potential of Enchanters comes from the allies they buff" -- oh wait, that was Moorgard. Anyway, many people seem to have bought the argument that enchanters are uber-utility and nobody else does anything except nuke and heal, even though lots of other classes have group buffs and "utility" galore.
yea Pinski I was just giving a sampleing of troub buffs I didnt have the time to list them all ...needless to day they definatly have more then we do, and a better selection to boot. are you sure about the range thing? some of our buffs have 50m yea but a alot aren't. Aspect of the Mind, Transient Sentiment, Seal of Ingenuity are 50m and... Insight =30m (you can run out of range of insight .. just like group invis) Legerity = 20m (only for casting range? I think ) Savante = 25m (group members can be out of range when cast .. they dont recieve benifits) Devitalizing Stare =7m (easy to be out of range for this ... if your not in range when it's cast you get no benifit) and now after checking again Bria's (bard mana regen song) also is 30m ... I guess there is no injustice there other then that they get a crap load more group buffs then we do :smileywink: To change gears here quick as anyone scribed Phase yet (level 65) and found it to be usefull in anyway? I havent found a copy of it yet but I will scribe one asap and try it out but it just doesnt sound usefull at all, it does seem like it could be very dangerous to a group or raid. The only think I can think of is maybe not so bad soloing if you have lots of space, and little chance of adds. Is that the only new spell we get in all of KoS? atleast we got 3 new spells in DoF
LOL yea I agree. I love how Necro's espcially complain they have no utility without thier pets. You know they have nothing other then FD, Rez, Group Heal, Proc buffs ect ect. yep no utility at all
