Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote: It is a completely different perspective you have. Half of your encounters you have listed as AE are really a ST fight with a mob or 2 once in a great while. Also I want to point out the AE fights that you do have listed...like the first 2 tox fights and first 2 palace fights are all tanked by our Guard and he can hold agro the very short time it takes to burn down the adds. After the vast majority of the encounters are ST. Just like the vast majority of the fight where you have a couple small heroic adds spawn is ST. There is nothing like FG or Ykesha where a huge amount of the fight was an AE encounter.
Bruener wrote: When it comes down to it, content-wise we're about half and half between fights that are AE based and fights that are ST based. There's also a pretty strong motivation via all the fights that require either splitting the raid or that memwipe a lot for having multiple tanks anyway, so most raid forces will have more than one tank. The important thing is altering balance so that those multiple tanks include a mix of STs & AEs (preferably one warrior, one crusader, one brawler). So long as AE tanks are better at ST aggro/dps than ST tanks are, ST tanks are pretty much obsolete.
Since I posted originally about St vs AE and I have no raid experience and will never step into any of these zones other than maybe LEROYing the first room to get disco AA, let's see how the instance zones pan out. VASTY DEEP: Conservatory: Tons of encounters, all names except 1 ST though Abandoned Labs: Tons of encounter trash, first name ST, 2nd spawns adds, 3rd spawns adds, perah'celsis comes with 2 in easy mode and 4 in hard mode (debatable if even exists) Vestigial Cella: Most trash is encounter, 2 ST names, final name GL if guard and don't have a templar in group. ERUDIN: Library: Tons of encounter trash, first name ST, 2nd name ST, 3rd name ST, 4th name AE ring event, last name ST Research Halls: I can think of 4 roamers and the key mob who are ST trash. All names ST. Royal Palace: No experience yet. THE HOLE: Demetrik's Bastion: If careful most mobs are ST but tightly grouped. First name is AE DPS check, Mushroom is AE aggro, horseman is ST, rock is ST and Demetrik is ST with assistance. Spirit's Resonance: Most trash is ST. First name AE, 2nd name can be AE if not burned fast enough or portals closed, third name comes with a pet but ST, 4th name comes with 12 adds, last name is ST with scripted adds event. Outer Vault: All trash (?) is ST, first name is AE, 2nd name is ST, 3rd name is AE with random adds spawn, 4th name is AE, 5th name is DPS check, 6th name is multi-tank, and last name is ST VIGILANT: Incursion: Almost all mobs are AE non-linked. Names are ST Infiltration: Again most trash is AE non-linked. First 2 rooms AE heavy. First name ST, 2nd name ST, 3rd name AE, last name is ST. Rescue: no experience yet. My guard and monk have tanked all the above listed succesfully. However, I can definitely see the benefit to having more AE capabilities. I think I'm a masochist though in enjoying making tanking more difficult and having to hold aggro on each mob individually. It keeps me busy and doing something other than clicking buttons. My guard, though, cycles through reinforcement and his group death prevent regularly in order to keep aggro in a halfway decent group. My monk is more specc'ed to take hits and so tanks most fights in offensive in order to keep aggro by outparsing most of the group. He doesn't have the AA for the more friendly snap aggro tools and I haven't yet specc'ed into sneezing assault. BChizzle: Have you noticed you get attacked a lot in these threads?
Strayslayer@Butcherblock wrote: People can't handle the truth. Fact is there is a huge disparity here and there are a select few who think personal attacks at the person who says it exists will help their cause when the truth is the facts speak loud enough for themselves. You will notice this group won't come back saying they dont out perform ST tanks on single target agro, you'll notice they don't come back and acknowledge the massive ae advantages they have, you'll notice they don't come back and argue that they are able to put out massive amounts of dps while maintaining way better survivability. They try and say things like "Things are balanced better then ever." when the truth is while tanks in general got better this expansion the tanks that were ahead got boosted just as much as the tanks that are behind resulting in the exact same issue that has been there for a while now. Bruener in particular likes to say things like "brawlers are more welcome in raids" and "zerks can do amazing things" to divert from the fact his class is so far ahead of the pack. I don't blame him for always worrying about his spot in raids since he is a pretty lousy tank and he in particular needs this huge advantage. The truth is there isn't balance in tanking and ST vs AE is the main culprit because when you break it down survivability is close across tank classes but the big problem is agro/dps and utility.
BChizzle wrote: I don't think you can count. Are you seriously considering Heroic adds as "Adds"? a single mage can just tab target to them and destroy them in a few seconds. The only AE intensive fight are the ring events for the first and second named in palace. Those adds are NOT heroic they are actually raid flagged. You know what the flags look like right? The itty bitty ones means they are herioc. The BIG HUGE ones means they are x2-x4. Perah if you get the adds it's because the raid failed, it's what you call a fail effect. You could probably fight through it but more than likely will die just too many incoming AoEs. Why would you even consider that fight an AE fight at all? lol. I'm not belittling anyone. Yes I am talking about my raid experience because IF a warrior that I play with can hold against a crusader on a single target mob then nothing is wrong. IF okay he couldn't then I would support all you guys...but I'm seeing that it can be done so there is nothing wrong with warriors typically guardians. I do have a clue to what makes a great tank, did I ever call you out and say you suck? No did I ever say you are in a horrible guild. No. I never attacked you. I'm simply am speaking from what I know and see. I know for a fact guards cannot compete with a Zerker, Pally, or SK on AE fights. I know for a fact a Guard can hold against a Zerker, Pally, or SK on ST fights even if they pop their positional. (Oh and we don't hit our positional for the sake of it, we do it for the damage to kill the mobs faster so we can progress quicker and also making sure we are under the guardian for hate since we're OT's and that's our job. We do ours so our DPS can go all out and do theirs. I can go 100% of my potential without worrying about some scrub warrior who doesn't know WTH to do with their abilities. (I know what I'm doing do not tell me how to play my class I won't tell you how to play yours.) You know the guys that make this game are in high end raiding guilds right? I got one of em on my server. They are seeing the same things we are seeing. If they know a Guardian can hold their own an ST fight but cannot on an AoE fight (except for the primary IE first named in Palace.) then the plate tanks are doing what they are meant to do. But what do I know I suck...and I'm a noob who randomly hits positional. I hit rescue and harm touch on pull for fun as well as my force target clicky. I FD the MT too sometimes just for the lulz. I think I'm playing the game wrong. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get kicked from my guild soon because I'm not a good tank and dunno WTH I'm doing. Hey can I join your guild when I get booted?
BChizzle wrote: Can I join your guild though? Here I'll go post an app. Thanks for setting me straight you're just full of AMAZING. So amazing everytime I go and reply to you I get a pop window saying are you sure you want to confront a God? And I'm like hell yeah I want his knowledge to so I too can also be amazing. Just like BChizzlesaur!
BChizzle wrote: It really is easy to see how folks can agree and disagree without giving in to compromise.. it does lead to things like "You're wrong, Im right *covers ears* I can't hear you lalalalalalala" type arguements without at least giving some quarter... I can promise you red names are monitoring these threads (I least I think they are, or at least that is what I would want to believe hehe) but again I can also add that there are priorities on their plates that need eating first before taking on the next course meal... The best recourse tho has always been and always will be to have a thead to make suggestions to debate the OP of said suggestions on how to improve your class... The guards have one.. there is one on this part of the forum started by Bruener for guards... Zerkers have one, a small one but they do have one... Monks and Bruisers don't have one.. does that mean they are happy? If folks want to be emo without taking initiative to posting an improvement thread to garner high numbers of folks/views of what is wrong with said class, then how can anyone expect to see results?
Strayslayer@Butcherblock wrote: hehe... doesnt hurt really to ask.. might be safer tho to make a another thread but with much clearer goals and a more appropriate title... as you can see this thread kinda took a life of its own lol
Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote: Sorry Sk's that hit rescue when they aren't tanking wouldn't last in my guild, you should try one that maybe doesn't raid.
BChizzle wrote: Yep, this is his typical response because he has nothing. The truth can be smack dab in front of him and he just looks to the side to avoid admitting he is wrong in anything at all. My favorite is one of the other threads where I got to steal his quotes about how SKs are fine. As far as my tank ability you should know better. I am a top notch tank and anybody that has grouped or guilded with me since I rolled my SK at launch will tell you that. You don't know me at all and the only time we have played together was in the BGs the other night where our raid was owning. I want to know how you can even think about questioning my ability to tank when you really don't have a clue. Of course your favorite method for arguments is to spit out a bunch of bull, than personally attack anybody that refutes anything you say. Its like trying to argue with a toddler. There is no ST v AE. There is only each class that has a mixture of Survivability/Agro/DPS/Utility. Each class is completely unique and thus should be treated that way. If a particular class is lacking somehow than they should have threads specifically designated to come up with ideas on how to improve thier class while staying within the parameters SOE has set forth by class description. Or, people can just keep QQ'ing about others....
Bruener, honestly man, Agro should never be a balancing point for tanks. It is the sole responsibility of a tank, all tanks should have what it takes to maintain agro just like others. How tanks should be balanced is the other 3 things you talk of: Survivability, DPS, and Utility. Right now, Guardians are lacking in DPS, we no longer have much of a gap(if any at all) in Survivability, and Guardians have nothing for Utility. I can't speak for the Brawlers, but you and I both know Guardians made numerous suggestions in beta in ways to improve us. Top Guardians were PM'ing developers ideas, we got nothing back from them. Also, the reason people bring up the AE vs. ST is because that was also part of Stage 1 for the Tank revamp that never happen. Stage 1 is what seemingly broke Guardians. It was stated that Stage 2 of that Tank Revamp was to pull everything back together, but guess what, it got canned and Stage 1 was left in place.
Bruener wrote: TBH I think it's because he's a monk lol. I do hope they give brawlers more of a utility edge though to make em more appealing if they are not used as main tanks or off tanks. Anyway. Nothing is going to change, and if there is one it's going to be slightly noticeable. You only see the same people making the same flamed posts you never see anyone new. The development team isn't going to listen to the 5 or 6 people who ramble. They have their own data, they are in their own raiding guilds, and can see the issues/balances for themselves. This thread is pretty much over and done. It's gonna become a bash fest and flame war next..I sense a mod coming in to say "play nice". Or..a simple lock down. I did like the lulz from Blanka though. Anyway I'm off to go rescue and FD our raid MT now and make sure the mob is turned right on top of the raid!
BChizzle wrote: Yeah I guess having some of the top kills/assists/damage I was horrible. I mean you did way better when you went off by yourself and was trying as hard as you could to get yourself killed trying to solo somebody. /toddler mode again I see.
No utility for brawlers please, I enjoy the one man army aspect of the class and not having to worry about managing buffs and temporary stuff on anyone but myself!
