So why is my Ranged dps Lower than my melee dps again?

Discussion in 'Ranger' started by ARCHIVED-bryan4171, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. ARCHIVED-kartikeya Guest

    Melee auto attack still out-DPSes ranged auto attack on live, yes. Insofar as I know, nothing was ever done in beta to address this issue. Mostly that's a culmination of the misguided belief that ranged auto attack has been doing far more damage than melee auto attack. It hasn't for quite some time. People see big numbers and say 'hey, that's doing more DPS!' but it isn't actually. Melee auto attack DPS and ranged auto attack DPS have been very close for quite some time, and SF just pushed melee ahead.
    Incidentally, most of those tests were done without the proc from our offensive stance, the proc from makeshift arrows, and the DoT proc that comes from our TSO set pants, and our mythical proc, all things that only proc off of ranged. And before I get your hopes up too high? ...I've done this test on live without bothering to get rid of any of those procs, and melee autoattack still commonly outparses ranged auto attack (and there aren't any procs on my melee auto attack at all. We're talking about four procs working off of ranged auto attack and ZERO procs on melee, and melee still generally wins out). It's close, but melee still tends to win. That's pretty messed up.
    To explain to the trouby why this is a big big big deal, you can't stand in the sweet spot, which is a place between 2-5 meters from the mob (not 35 meters out), and melee auto attack. The sweet spot is what allows us to use both melee and ranged arts in a raid fight. But it's too far out for melee auto attack, even if you've got the Miragul's charm. Which means you have to run in with all the rest of the scouts. Except your ranged arts, which are the vast bulk of your combat arts, won't work from that distance. The suggested solution on these boards is apparently to blow all our ranged combat arts really fast, run in and melee, while doing melee combat arts, then run back out to blow our ranged arts when they come up, and pray this somehow does more damage. Sound like fun to you?
    Note, going full melee auto attack means we don't get any benefit from makeshift arrows, no proc from offensive stance, no proc from the mythical buff, no proc from set pants (all extremely large parts of our DPS in raids). Our mythical buff adds 10% combat art damage and a base auto attack multiplier, and that is absolutely all it does outside of the (already kind've mediocre anyway) proc.
    Now I don't doubt troubies have their own issues, not the least of which is apparently they're kind've boring on a raid. However, troubies are extremely useful to a raid force, boring buff bots or no. I don't know how their buffs stack against dirges and enchanters, but their buffs are extremely useful, and you do NOT want to raid without bards. In fact, isn't a bard in every group the ideal? Four bards at least then, yeah? So please allow me to point out the obvious: no raid looks specifically for rangers. In fact, it may be detrimental to a raid to take a ranger along, if they haven't padded out the DPS in other areas so as to make up for taking along a class that generally can't compete with the other DPS classes, or in some cases, the 'buff bots'. While it's nice to do DPS as a utility class, that's not what the class is brought along for on raids. And while yes, troubies are at the bottom of the pile, or were pre-SF, when it comes to utility DPS, your main purpose isn't to do DPS. That is ALL rangers can do. It is the only reason to bring a ranger. And I've had a few bards dogging at my heels on the parse in this expansion.
    If no one played a ranger, you would not see raids calling for a ranger in their current state. Lack of players does not somehow make the class more desirable unless the class was desirable before. Boring or not, troubies benefit raids and groups greatly. Those buffs of yours can make or break a raid or a group. Rangers bring DPS. At the moment, rangers bring subpar DPS, and less utility than other T1 DPS classes, let alone the T2 (swashy) or the utility classes. So people wouldn't call for rangers. They can grab any other DPS class and gear and AA being equal, that DPS class will do more DPS than a ranger would.
    Sorcerers included. Which breaks your entire argument. Sorcerers are sitting at the top of the heap right now, and they can sit further out than rangers can and do almost max DPS, whereas rangers sitting at ranged are crippled for damage. Oh, and I have to pay for arrows to be able to do that. So exactly where's the balance there? And please don't say cloth versus chain armor. The AEs this expansion will one-shot you regardless of whether you're wearing a dress or a chain shirt, and it's been that way for quite some time. Ditto should you happen to pull aggro.
    TL;DR: Rangers don't sit that far out, if they do voluntarily, they suck, if they do because of encounter mechanics, they will do less damage than sorcerers, who can do that almost without penalty (I believe Fusion needs you to run into melee range?) and melee classes will still beat me even if they have to joust AEs, we bring less utility than just about any other class in the game, pay through the nose for arrows (our raid assassin was shocked when I told him how many I use on a typical raid night, even with all the little things put in to reduce that number), do less DPS than the top tier DPS classes and less than most of the second tier DPS classes (and prior to this expansion, a well played ILLUSIONIST, T3 DPS, would out-DPS me), and in spite of us supposedly being predators, we do less DPS than bards if some part of the encounter forces us into minimum range.
    And all of that, and I'd just like to point out there's probably a reason your raid wants you bringing your trouby rather than your ranger to raids. Just a thought.
  2. ARCHIVED-Kulaf Guest

    You could have really saved yourself that entire wall of text had you read what I have already posted in this thread. I play a Ranger as my alt.....I have raided with him.....I know the mechanics of Rangers. My ranger has 6 set T4 TSO gear, Myth, yadda yadda. I also have already conceded that Troubs are desired on raids due to their utility.
    My posts in this thread continue to be misconstrued that somehow I think Rangers are perfectly balanced......well they're not. But no class is. Every class has their issues except for the one or two OP'd classes of the time. But if you all continue to jump people who make rather innocuous comments then all you are going to do is drive support from other classes away.
    As to the reason my guild wants me to bring my Troub.......well that is because I want to play my Troub. Perhaps I am in the minority in that I have been gaming with my guild for almost 10 years now. They want me on raids for me.....not what class I happen to play.
  3. ARCHIVED-Ademelo Guest

    Granted, you have stated the Ranger class is broken, but you continue to state that the Troub class is broken also and should be fixed ahead of us. How so is the troub broken? Please don't tell me the DPS factor because, and I don't care who gets frazzled with this one, but you're a support class. I'm tired of support classes complaining about how their DPS is low, when all a ranger can bring to the table is DPS and we're being beaten on a CONSTANT basis by all other T1 DPS and quite a few T2 DPS classes. It's been this way for the last few years and nothing has done to change it this expac again. We're not asking to be gods on the playing field, we're asking the Devs to level the playing field so we're not excluded.
  4. ARCHIVED-kidpaul Guest

    Im just gonna quickly highjack this thread again for some quick statistics we all know how statistics never lie.
    X Rolled... Rock
    Brigand : 71199
    Coercer : 71891
    Defiler : 75102
    Mystic : 80694
    Inquisitor : 80769
    Illusionist : 89191
    Troubador : 93260
    Ranger : 178536
    Shadow Knight : 219733
    Wizard : 283790
    Yes the troubador comes in at number 7 and at the other side of the spectrum the ranger is 3rd most rolled and we complain we are the 3rd most popular character out there. But you cant just look at the how many of players have a x class (obvious this is what SOE does... Dont worry I got a no developer sign on my door (lets see if that joke backfires)) . Cause if we only looked at the sheer number of players that have a certain class that class would never be fixed. So lets look at it broken down in scouts.
    Scout... Paper
    Ranger 178536 , 6274 , 687
    Brigand 71199 , 5395 , 735
    Assassin 149175 , 5968 , 805
    Swashbuckler 108512 , 5252 , 791
    Troubador 93260 , 5315 , 967
    Dirge 114663 , 7935 , 1544
    So what does those the 3 numbers mean?
    Nr 1 all players, all servers, lvl 1-90,
    Nr 2 all players, all servers, lvl 80-90.
    Nr 3 all players, all servers, lvl 90.
    When we look at it this way the Ranger is the least played character of the scouts and only beaten out classwise by the Bruiser (490) and Monk (524) while the troubador have a nice 5th place of the scouts and top 8th classwise. But I didn't put this together to stomp on Kulanae but rather just to point out that yes they have it bad see below.
    Utility... Scissor

    Troubador : 93260 , 6429 , 967
    Illusionist : 89191 , 6429 , 1061
    Coercer : 71891 , 5796 , 1121
    Dirge : 114663 , 7935 , 1544
    They are the least played utility at endgame. Some would argue that Brigand, Swashbuckler, Necromancer and Conjuror should be added to the utility list but they are hybrids of dps and utility.
    On a side note I would like to say hats of to the Monks and Bruisers atleast im not them.

    All numbers taken from SOE's official eq2player site in 2010-03-27 9am GMT+1. Errors might have been made cause of early morning and just 1 cup of coffee and low alcohol tolerance... im working on that one.
  5. ARCHIVED-Neiloch Guest

    I know troubs aren't as bad off as rangers simply because you don't see raid guilds or groups looking specifically for rangers, but I have seen them looking for troubs. EQ2 is built on tank/healer/utility/DPS, if you don't bring one of these in high capacity you are not desired. Brawlers and rangers are evidence of this. When it comes to DPS, OTHER players don't care how you do DPS, just that you do it. They don't look at ranger DPS and think 'well hes not topping the parse but he can do it ranged while being a scout so I guess its ok' or 'well he doesn't have to stealth as much as an assassin to do it' they think 'he's not matching the assassin/wizard, F em' I also have the luxury of my guild wanting me around, although I do more work than most typical raiders. I manage ventrilo, loot, DKP site, and on raids I'm the one charged with doing w/e special mechanics a fight may have such as pulling adds and clicking items.
  6. ARCHIVED-Nevao Guest

    Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:
    Wait, I host Ventrillo, I manage DKP, I'm backup on Loot Bids and I'm usually MA or the one who stand at the joust out point. So now we know the two ways to pull off being a raiding ranger, lead the raid or be the "office manager". LOL.
  7. ARCHIVED-Kulaf Guest

    I'll just add one more comment that is skewing Kidpaul's numbers on the 80-90 figures for Dirges and Troubs and that is bots. Whether that is raid bots or group bots or just people who bring along a Dirge/Troub as a 2nd comp our numbers of actual players to mains is even lower than his stats show.
    Since asked I will outline some issues on our "utility":
    1) Our HP regen buff has been marginalized out of existance. It is never played.
    2) Our Power regen which used to be one of the best in the now one of the worst.
    3) We still have attacks that drain mob power......even after all of the fixes to Enchanters to get rid of this and give them either DPS or futher utility we remain unchanged.
    4) Our Haste buff is now one of the worst in game.
    5) Our stat buffs don't affect us anymore. Buffing INT no longer does anything to boost Troub DPS.
    6) Our +Def buff is now worthless as SF raid mobs seem to have 100% hit rates.
    7) Don't Kill the Messenger which used to be great because it boosted crits now is pretty much worthless as most every raider and certainly every caster is maxed on Crit percentage.
    Now I could go on but there is nothing I could say that you can't stop over to the Troub board and read for yourself. It boils down to Troubs being a three trick pony right now (Jester's Cap, Aria of Magic and Perfection of the Maestro). That's it. Don't even get me going on healers out dpsing us on parses. I have pride as a Scout class and SOE is seriously stomping on my nuts with that one.
    In passing I leave you with this......the grass is always greener......over the septic tank.
  8. ARCHIVED-Neiloch Guest

    Troubs are still sought after on raids, rangers aren't.
    One of the top guilds on my server have two troubs, and have ranger recruitment closed without even having one.
    Its not who gets played more/less or who is ACTUALLY balanced, the only thing that matters is that people DESIRE to group and/or raid with X class. A class could be THE most screwed up, **** class, if for w/e reason people actively tried recruiting them, I would say they are doing 'well enough'. I would concede troubs are towards the bottom of desired, but they are not the worst off, not even close.
  9. ARCHIVED-Kulaf Guest

    I Don't recall ever seeing any guild on Blackburrow ever recruiting for any DPS class. The only recruting I ever see is for healers or utility classes. Probably because they require the most work and are the least "fun". Everyone flocks to the limelight of the parse spotlight so you have a lot more competition.
  10. ARCHIVED-Sydares Guest

    Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:
    Well deduced. On that note, Troubador forums are that way. --->
  11. ARCHIVED-kartikeya Guest

    Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:
    I have read your posts. And in spite of claiming to know ranger mechanics and how rangers are played, you've posted some pretty misleading comments. Not to mention the 'rangers can fight at ranged, hurrhurr' argument has. n't been valid since DoF, if then.
    You play a troub as a main. You clearly are well versed in troub issues and have strong feelings about things that need to be fixed with troubies. That's cool, and I'm all for you guys getting attention. However, it'd be great if you'd recognize that the people who play their rangers as mains are also generally well versed in ranger issues, ranger mechanics, and have strong feelings about things that need to be fixed. There's a big difference between 'not perfectly balanced' and 'in desperate need of attention'. Rangers are the latter. Rangers have been the latter for arguably years. And as these are the ranger boards, we're discussing severe ranger issues at the moment.
    I'm friends with the people I raid with. They try to bring me whenever they can. But the bottom line is, when you're doing new content, difficult content, you need to build your raid accordingly, and there are only so many slots (and for DPS, these slots are very very very very few). You raid, I'm sure you recognize this. If rangers can't keep up, rangers don't get slots. It's as simple as that. When you add all the ridiculous penalties for ranged damage on top of the fact that ranged DPS can't come close to spell or melee DPS, well, it gets extremely frustrating. It's all we've got to bring to the table.
  12. ARCHIVED-Osp Guest

    Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:
    Wow...seriously just wow, i thought you were kidding in the first few posts.
    First, if your getting outparsed by healers then you just suck on your Troub - Feel free to ask any of the troubs in Defiance how to play your class as ive NEVER seen a healer even close to them.
    Second, your "broken" class still has the best utlity / buffs in the game for EVERY caster and SK
    Third, seeing that you dont know the mechanics for your Troub, I dont see how you can claim to know the mechanics for a Ranger.
    Id like to repost this on the other site to see what kind of .....intrest it would bring.
  13. ARCHIVED-Nevao Guest

    I think our troll from the Troub forum is growing fat from all the attention. He does not want to discuss we now know his intent is to argue Troubs have it worse and we don't know what we're talking about with our own Mains. Probably best to just start ignoring his cries, otherwise he'll never learn to stop.
  14. ARCHIVED-Kulaf Guest

    Venez@Permafrost wrote:
    I have been outparsed a few times by Inquisitors and Fury. I said so in my posts. Those two classes tend to do the least healing and the most fighting. I have posted that I can hit 15k on my parses if I have say a Inq/Illy/Conj in my group makeup and I am getting IA from the Illy. I've played a Bard in some form since EQ1. If you want to post this to EQ2Flames (as some kind of veiled threat), be my guest. Invite your guild members who are Troubs to join the discussion. Should be fun. Not sure what insight if any they can lend to Ranger issues but they can certainly confirm what I have been saying about Troubs.
    Ohh and btw this thread is now a blazing fireball of attention. You're welcome.
  15. ARCHIVED-callahan44 Guest

    only SEVEN things broken with Troubs atm?
    If anyone managed to finsh the Ranger List, it would be the end of civilization as we know it!! :p

    (SOE can you rollback my 90 raiding ranger back a few years to character select? I think I was supposed to click Swashy)
  16. ARCHIVED-bryan4171 Guest

    Huh, what is a raiding Ranger did I wake up from a 3 year nightmare. Is that some rare new class out there can I roll one?

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