I posted this in the combat-update feedback forum, as well. I'm hoping that if we're as vocal as some of the other classes, that our interestes might actually be considered: Remember this?: Sassee: Part of the changes coming to spells and combat arts is to adjust how much damage the various classes do in relation to each other. Can you tell us how the different subclasses will rank in relative damage potential? Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest. First group: Wizard/Warlock Assassin/Ranger Second group: Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) Brigand/Swashbuckler Third group: Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) Troubador/Dirge Bruiser/Monk Fourth group: Berserker/Shadowknight Paladin/Guardian Fifth group: Fury/Warden Defiler/Mystic Inquisitor/Templar Why is it that Nec's/Conjurors are now at the top of the dps chain, followed by rangers/assassins, then bruisers? Seriously, why would anyone choose to play a sorceror if they're not guaranteed to consistently do the most damage? What about wizards/warlocks being the UNDISPUTED kings of dps, as Moorgard previously stated would (and should) be the case? Before CU went live, Moorgard said test logs had wizzy's/warlocks switching out at #1 and #2 on dps, depending on mobs and whether they were single or multiple target. Were they only looking at these two subclasses dps and completely ignoring the fact that "lesser" dmg classes were actually doing more damage? Now, both sorceror classes are being regularly out-dps'd by predators and pet classes. Again, I ask, what is the incentive to play a dress-wearing, 0-utility class that dies in two smacks if we are going to be outdamaged by predators whose utility already far outweighs ours, bruisers who can tank, dodge, dps and heal, and summoners, whose pets take the place of armor for the most part? I mean, seriously. Think about it: if you signed up to do nothing but damage and, in exchange for such damage, sacrificed every other possible advantage, wouldn't you be upset at not being the best at producing dmg? The fact that such is the case is not only undisputed, but repeatedly cited all over these boards. Predator/Summoner/Bruiser dmg is well over that of any sorceror. And don't talk to me about AE's, because these same classes can out-AE sorcerors, as well. I have a suggestion: how about the dev team go over a sample of the combat logs since CU has gone into effect and see whether these dps rankings still hold true. I see nothing wrong with these other subclasses maintaining their current damage numbers, so long as sorceror damage numbers are increased to at least 5% more than the next closest dps class. This only seems fair. Then again, I'm absolutely positive that no members of any of the above mentioned subclasses will agree. After all, who would ever admit that their class is doing more damage than intended? I play a 53 warlock and was willing to adapt to the fact that I'd no longer be the premier dps class after CU. I was willing to share the spotlight, as was intended, with my wizard brethren. I was willing to be pigeon-holed into an AE/DoT hybrid role for which I never even originally signed up. But when classes with way more utility than sorcerors are outdamaging me, the time has come to reconsider my investing so much time in this game only to be repeatedly given the run-around by developers who apparently suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder to the extent that they can't stick to their own guidelines. If sorcerors are going to be consistently outdamaged by these other subclasses, devs better make d a m n sure they give us something to replace the fact that we'll be routinely passed over for scouts when it comes time to form raid groups. Of course, some of you will never be convinced. You play a true T1 dps class atm, have insane utility, and the ability to wear actual armor. If I belonged to such a class, I'm sure I'd be lobbying to maintain that position, as we warlocks had done previous to CU 14. I don't mind not being the absolute best at dealing dmg anymore, but playing 5th or 6th fiddle to T2 and T3 dps classes is simply ludicrous and something that definitely requires attention. I'm just hoping it doesn't take a three-month long round of testing to make right what should've been the case to begin. -Kairos 53 Warlock/Unrest
I have heard conflicting stories , some poeple say we are near the top others 4th place or so. So would be nice to see some developer feedback on their own parsing. Well said though.
Well, I dont know who you have been playing with, but I regularly group with a conj and necro and I can tell you, I own the conj and the necro is closer to me, but the majority of the time I consistantly have more DPS. This is against group mobs 52-54 x2's heroric, Single target mobs?..owned. I wont even come close. Honestly, I could really care less about group tactics when Warlocks raid skills are so out of wack right now. I am a level 58 warlock on Unrest btw. Mandoblast lvl 58 Warlock DROW Message Edited by Mandaloran on 10-09-2005 07:27 AM
Please stop saying Bruisers beat us. It's not true. The only classes that compare to us are Wizard, Ranger, Assassin, and Necromancer. Rogues and Brawlers are extremely short-lived; after 5 seconds of full-burn they have no CA's left and have to auto-attack for 30 seconds while their abilites refresh.
This question has already been answered. The answer is: It is not a rigid damage tier. It is situational. Warlocks are highest group-AoE, and can do significant damage in other situations. I agree with the OP in spirit though. Being top-tier DPS only in the limited risky AoE category isn't very rewarding to me. But I guess that is my problem.
Cry me river I yet to see any class who can closer then 100DPS behind me on any encounters that have 2 or more mobs
I play a wizard, a warlock and a bruiser. I can tell you that my bruiser has lower dps than my wizard / warlock. But when killing single target, the difference isnt big. And yes, summoners are doing insane dps. They can do up to 700 dps and have avg 500-600 dps when killing multiple mobs, while my warlock can only do 350-550 dps and my wizard 250-400. I'm not sure about rangers and assassins since I dont have friends playing those classes. Moorgard said yesterday that they're looking over all spells and will do some balance tweak. Hope they'll fix this.
Some of you guys seem to be talking out of your arses. Assassins are completely screwed up right now and there should absolutely no way they out damage you at the present moment.
After doing lots of testing in my guild with warlocks, wizards, bruisers, necro's, rangers, assasins all with adept 3's or masters and on various mobs (epics and heroics). I would have to say dps seems to be like: rangers, necro's (havent tested w/ conjuror, but rangers/necro's are always top dps) bruisers, wizards, warlocks (seem to be really close depending on mob) assasins seem to fall in right behind wizards/warlocks/bruisers Whats interesting is rangers/necro's own the top dps tier whereas warlocks and wizards come in behind them.... Also what is interesting is that ranger can wear medium armor and be the top dog of dps, its just not right. Then u have a tank (bruiser) doing as much or more dps then wizards and warlocks. The dps tiers need to be looked at AGAIN, but i wont get my hopes up...
The only classes that compare to us are Wizard, Ranger, Assassin, and Necromancer. Rogues and Brawlers are extremely short-lived; after 5 seconds of full-burn they have no CA's left and have to auto-attack for 30 seconds while their abilites refresh. [/QUOTE] Just for the record, Assasin's are no where near the top tier at the moment. With our horribly long (some as long as 15 minutes, most around 5 minute) recast timer's on high damage attacks, we stand around most of the time doing auto attack damage, waiting for gems to refresh. However, if you happen to parse a fight where all our abilities are fresh and available, we do ok for a while - almost comparable to Wizard or Warlock, but run out of power about mid fight and trail off to gimped auto-attack damage. Bruisers beat Assasins in DPS in almost every fight I parse. They also stand toe-to-toe with Rangers and Wizards, and usually come out ahead. Warlocks tend to be ahead of Assasin's to be sure, but a Bruiser will beat a Warlock every time on single target encounters. Heck, just about everyone I mention beats a Warlock in a single-target raid like encounter.
I have no doubt that Bruisers and Summoners will get scaled back. There are so many people complaing that SOE will nerf them, because that is how it works.
Don't forget that classes like assassins or maybe rangers, which i know nothing about, have situational attacks. My friend plays an assassin and he can't really solo all that well. His big attacks require him to be in stealth, or he has to be behind the target. Our damage can come from anywhere. I think our dps is just fine at the moment. I haven't had any problems thus far.
Our DPS is fine...others is whack! You ever checked Furys nukes and AOE??? About 200dmg less then us...sigh.... Bruisers/predetors/roughs/summoners/druids all need a BIG balancing act. Here are the abilities some or all of these classes have : better armor and overall durability /heal(self heal) / almost identical dps / can switch weapons and get no resists / less agro cause of thier pet (or a anti agro CA) / group invi /evac /fd /res The none blind unobjective player firends of mine who play these classes all admit to it.
Did you ever try to grp with troub and illusionists ? As far as I know most of your dps parses are in groups. Who says rangers and conj don't have any dps procs on them ? Haste ... I know if I in the same group as a troub and illusionist and i get their casting buffs, I will get agro in the raid if I go all out. My dps is constantly around 600-700dps with those procs and I barely see my power go down. Rangers and other also get procs and are around 500-600dps. Except the conjuror who can do more then me on Single target all other classes are under the warlock. And as a matter of a fact, it's not because I can't do more, it's just because if I do more damage, I will get agro. If you are in the right group, mages do more damage then any melee class. In AE encounters, there is no doubt , warlocks win every fight. The spell I don't use on long fights, because it does too much damage then, is Dark Infestation. The DoT itself is pretty ok, but as soon as the broodlings proc, you better start running. You will get agro if you have the illu and troub procs ;-). So basicly, you can use that spell if you are in a melee group and want to do extra damage. If you are in a mage group and buffed up with procs, you should not use it. We have dps, we have too much dps, so much that if we use it all we get agro. Don't tell me it is not true. Don't tell me you all go all out and don't get agro. BUT WE CAN'T USE ALL OUR DPS. We should get a nice agro reduction spells, so we can do more damage. All I know is that our damage comes for the most part from our own spells. The damage from other classes comes alot from procs we put on them. And becuase they hit alot and have alot of spells they can come close to our dps. Without those procs their dps will get lowered alot. We will always do nice damage in any group setup. Overal we do great damage. But the fact that other classes come close to us with procs is no excuse, we still should do noticable more damage then them.
If you will look on the bigger picture you will understanad the problem. A 100dps advantge that we can get at an optimal situation is nothing compared to not being a one hit wonder/heals/res/fd and more. On average Conj are the highest DPS class by far.With much less agro then us. I know a dou of Conj+ranger who do named mobs all the time.No healer no nothing. Pet+DPS does that seem right to you?
I think there are some steps you can take to drastically increase your dps if you are playing a Warlock. 1. Get as much INT as you can. Buy gear. Buy more gear. And when you are done buying gear, buy more. 2. Look at your casting sequences. Are you casting devastation when it doesn't have time to fully tick on a mob? Force Dark Infestation to proc with appropriate spells coming aftwerards->vulian intrusion to start. Further, because of the spawn, move forward a bit, stop, move forward a bit problem with Dark Infestation broodlings, you need to be standing as close to the tank as you possibly can. That way, the broodlings spawn right on top of the mob, and don't **** their way up to it. Get that baby clicking as soon as possible. Cast torment of shadows almost immediately after pull. Set up some of your nuke cycles in a macro that adds in an ho trigger, as the trigger is instant in a macro, but not if you have to manually click it. Get aura of emptiness on mobs as soon and often as possible. There are MANY things that you can do to improve your single target dps. If there a large number or down arrow mobs, switch to one that isn't being targeted. AOE that guy. If you assist the main tank, you will never get a four second cast aoe off because alll the burst damage people won't let you. Immediately after revamp, I logged in, and my gear put me at a 178 INT, as I hadn't really cared to get past 200. Now, after spending much plat and consulting ogaming, my INT is at 306. Before I upgraded all that gear, I was struggling to do 200 dps. I changed my cycles, upgraded all my dots, upgraded my gear, and Joila.... on a single mob that stays up long enough for spells to take effect, I can crank out 450+ on a single target. It sucks my power hard, but it can be done. And yes, if I have a death wish, I can pull off of a 60 AD3+ guard as a 53 warlock. I think the comment about group composition is valid. With INT buffs, I am capped for my level. Trust me, it makes a HUGE difference. Having classes that can buff you up really does matter. I won't even mention the number that I've put out in an aoe situation. Another thing you should consider doing is completing all of the arcanist training tomes. Thus far the analysis from CS looks as if it actually increases the bottom end damage of spells within the RNG. My sample size may be too small at this point to verify this, but so far it looks that way. On a trash mob that goes down fast, Warlocks will always be out dpsed by any other dps class. Always. Don't even think about keeping up. If the mob stays up for a while, you can keep up, but it's gonna cost you a smack ton of power. In an aoe situation, if any other class is coming close to you, I'm not sure what you're doing wrong.... just some thoughts. Alezara
then you prolly have accidentially invited a zerker to the group who is fighting with his offensive stance on....
My main is a 51 Warlock and I have a Monk, Paladin and Necromancer. Ranger class have insane damage rating on their ranged weapons. They can pull a yellow arrowless mob and it will die in 2 hits before the mob gets to us. What bugs me is that this sort of damage does not cost them -any- power at all and that hardly seems fair to our class who has zero armor and zero utilities. My Monk and Paladin are in fact easier to play then my Warlock. They have more interesting DPS / armor -wise and are by far more better in mana conservation when it comes to casting spells. They kill groups of mobs slower then a warlock, but that's no problem coz their armor holds out and you don't have to worry about sudden chunks out of your healthbar. Depending on the mob, they kill a mob fast enough to keep a good flow going in your gameplay. Imo, Warlocks are by far not as efficient anymore as most other classes.
zitha wrote: then you prolly have accidentially invited a zerker to the group who is fighting with his offensive stance on.... I group regularly with a zerk that has all of his T5 and two of his T6 master. He regularly puts out 800+ when rampage timer is active. He doesn't beat me. Alezara Message Edited by Amistead on 10-11-2005 12:50 PM
Thank you, Crono1321. I play a 53 Monk and what you say is exactly, 100% what happens. Sure, I can generate a lot of damage over a 12-sec timespan if I want. Then I get to wait a good 25 secs for abilities to refresh and guess what? those big damage numbers (which are never really that big) ain't there! Parsing with a wizzie 1 level above me in a group of 6, the Wiz way WAY ahead of all of us consistently in DPS. Not even close.
