There seems to be a bit of confusion as to our role in a group as templars. Some people say we are weak. Some say they run out of power. I decided to start this thread to post healing strategies for those who are having difficulties. I understand that there may be no _right_ way to do this but I hope that some templars who are seeing success in their group role will post and let others know how they manage. Here are my thoughts and how I handle a group. So first off I am only going to talk about dealing with tough encounters with you as the only healer. Encounters that most groups have trouble with. Once you get those down the rest are cake. The MA is your #1 concern. If the MA bites it the group is most likely doomed. You will not have power to heal anyone else during a tough fight (or time for that matter). Make sure the MA has a reactive prior to pull. Make sure he knows not to pull without you being at full power (wiped the other night on a yellow ^^ pull when I was at half mana and was sole healer). It is important to debuff the mob as soon as you can. It will save you power on heals. Keep the mob debuffed as time permits. Backup your reactive with combat heal as needed. Reapply reactive as needed. I have an instant cast, no power reactive heal that I keep in case I run low on power. I don't know if everyone gets it, but I have it and it has saved groups on more than one occasion. If your tank is up to his/her job and you have adequate dps you should be able to finish just about any yellow ^^ and most orange ^^ with a bit of mana to spare. Your mileage may vary. Other things to consider: keep non-melee out of the mobs ae range if possible, have all melee except the MA stay behind the mob being attacked to stop riposte damage (when mobs are hitting for 400+ this really becomes an issue), keep an eye on breeze if you have a chanter and make sure you remind them when it's gone (the melee types can finish off a mob if the casters are out of power but not if you are out of power), summoners can give you an activatable mana item-get one if you can. I can't stress this enough: YOUR SPELLS ARE TO YOU AS ARMOR/WEAPONS ARE TO TANKS. Get upgrades as soon as you can. So who's gunna be next and post their winning strategy?
You've pretty much summon'd everything up. I keep Bestow of Vitae up all the time on the MA. Here's the run down on what I usually do before; 1. Bestow of Vitae or Summon of Sermons depending on if there is a seperate puller/MA 2. Recast Bestow of Vitae 3. Mark of Pawns (Yah I've heard it's not that great, but the extra little healing, small mana cost, helps) 4. If I have time/mana I'll cast Weakness/Group target Weakness (forgot name) 5. MA drops to yellow, I'll cast a combat heal first to give them the extra combat buff 6. Keep recasting Bestow of Vitae on MA 7. Arch Healing as it heals more then Combat after I've done Combat Heal. With double up yellow mobs, I usually end up with about 50-60% power. Puller goes pull, power goes up to around 75% and I'm good to go, rinse repeat. Orange mobs and I'll be down to about 20% power. Named mobs I will need to sit and regen. I usually sit down during the fights now, I find it helps me out, but that could just be my imagination. Debuffing mobs seem to help me out a lot tho', I end up with a bit more power. If I don't debuff I end up using more power to heal. That's about it. Just pay attention, watch for the fizzles, recast, blah blah.
I still tend to swear to Weakness and Rebuke (or replacement when that comes). Yes, notify the tank you'd like to cast a spell before (s)he goes to pull. However, depending on mob type I do the following: Hard single or twosome mob, Weakness followed by Rebuke, first on one of them, then check on the tank and other group members, give the at least the tank another Bestoval. Same issue for the potential second mob, Weakness and Rebuke, check group members. Always keeping BoV on the tank and using instant heals if things look grim. Even if they can easily kill you, I consider these "easy" battles, if the tank knows how to keep agro, there's really nothing much to do, either you can keep them up with heals, or you can't. The hard battles in my opinion are those where the mob tends to sway from th tank. Whether it's the tanks fault or not isn't an issue, problem is, suddenly you have the odd scout getting a whip, while the mage maybe also gets a hard punch taking them to orange. Reasons are usually bad luck (i.e. mob decides to agro someone else) or unfortunate popping adds. Here I don't think there's time to debuff, at least not until it's under control. So, when the non-tank gets that hard hit, BoV them, I very rarely use instants, they have to be close to red before that happens. Also, should they go down, well, goal is for this not to happen, but making a sacrifice for the survival of the tank (and quite frankly, the healer) is in my opinion acceptable. No healer or tank and the entire group is most likely down or running like elven babies In these pop-add and general chaotic scenarios, focus on the "most important people", once you're assured they'll stay alive at least for a few moments, turn your focus on debuffs. Oh yes, pull out your hammer and get behind or to the side of whatever the tank is attacking, even just doing 20 damage a swing is still 20 damage. I've yet to experience getting agro for bashing stuff, agro comes from spells.
I definitly agree with the debuffing on the mobs, it can save me so much mana. I also use spell called radience as it has no casting time and it regens the main tanks health for a little while allowing me to cast my debuffs. Cheers for the aid in this you two thanks Horgoth 20th Templar Dwarf Lucan
Just cruising through the Templar forums ( I am a level 22 Guardian) I think Orkhammer is right on with his assessment. The reactive heals prior to pulling is key. Casting BOV prior to engagement lets me pull the mob, establish aggro and be at (or near) full health without the Templar needing to cast anything. BOV is especially nice on long pulls. This type of heal also allows me to gauge how hard I am being hit when fighting mobs with multiple members. I have seen the BOV reactive light up my character like a Christmas tree when these mobs are really hitting me. This lets me know that I should probably focus on my more extreme defensive techniques (like toughness and Hunker Down) once aggro is established. (I also take the casting of BOV as a sign that the healer is ready for me to pull) Don’t under estimate your debuffs!!! Weakness and Rebuke (I think they are called), can make a HUGE difference. It may not be possible to cast this all the time, or as early in the battle as you might like, but cast it whenever you can. The mobs will go down faster! It is true what Orkhammer says about losing aggro….. If I lose aggro even with “simple†mobs this wreaks havoc on the group. On hard mobs it is a sure sign that someone will die. The fact is that once aggro is lost, it is VERY difficult to reestablish it (even if the taunt techniques are spammed). That being said,. I think it is the tanks fault if aggro is lost (after the first 5-7 seconds of battle). At the start of a fight it is very easy to bump yourself to the top of the hate list, but if you can make it past this window, aggro should never be lost. Chain heals, nuking, mez, whatever. If the tank is doing his job, aggro should hold. If you have a tank that is losing aggro after the fight has started, ask politely if he is using “Hold the Line†and “Rally Cry†in addition to his normal taunts. “Hold the Line†makes every hit that the tank does to the mob generate hate (at the expense of movement), “Rally Cry†is a group buff that seems to generate as much hate as “Shout†(a group taunt). I have heard that at higher levels (25-30) that a Zerker’s “BloodLust†buff can easily pull mobs off a Guardian, regardless of what the MT does, but short of this complaint, there is no excuse for losing aggro! If aggro is maintained, the fight really comes down to mob health vs. healer mana. Even if you are CLEARLY losing this battle, as long as aggro can be maintained, the group can be saved. Sure the tank will probably die, but the group should have enough time to get out of range. Quick question for the Templars: Should “Intervene†be cast on the MT if another fighter class is assisting the MT? “Intervene†will allow the second tank to absorb some of the damage the MT takes. Some healers like it, because it allows a larger health pool to be drained, others hate it because they have to be concerned with keeping two tanks alive. Message Edited by Kellic2 on 12-03-2004 11:35 AM
At lvl 21 it is way WAY easier on me if only one person is bleeding. If I have to heal 2 or more people in the party we are probably in trouble as I will soon be out of power. Well.. Unless there is a backup healer. I LOVE backup healers hehe.
ThikNoggen, thank you for your feedback. Has anyone noticed a significant difference in how Monks, Bezerkers, Paladins, or Guardians tank?
Well technically they can all do the job, but I normally prefer a Guardian or Pally as MT if I have a choice. As far as significant differences, it seems I have to heal the guardian or pally a bit less than the others. I haven't tested this with hard numbers so that could be inaccurate. It just seems that way. Hope that helps..
All depends on the situation. Sometimes I stick to strictly healing, sometimes I heal and nuke and debuff. If the main tank is good, the I do the latter. If the tank is bad then I stick to healing. Also, the Level of the Main Tank and what MOBS you are dragging plays a lot into what our role will be. I am a lvl 21 Templar, had a group of 5 in SH. The MT was lvl 26 and we were pulling yellow, 2 up mobs and he was barely getting hurt. Sure, when we had 3-4 on us at once, I would stick to healing but when it comes right down to it, our job is to keep people alive, and if that means every dies except you and the Main Tank then so be it. The MT is and should be the MAJOR receiver of your heals, because usually, if the MT dies, everyone dies...
I sometimes cast BoV before pull, but honestly, only for healing reasons and not at all for aggro problem. I have *never* got aggro from healing since it got tested on beta. Even if I heal on incoming, as long as the tank taunted once.
Same, I do the BoV cast before pull (depends on mob strength really) - then I cast Sign of Weakness as the mobs are incoming and I make sure that it doesn't fade during the fight, it saves a ton of mana on healing. Can't say that I nuke or melee much at all. If I wanted to do either, I would have played a different class... Malum Templar, Nektulos Server
BoV pulls aggro from mobs in a hard way now...didn't seem to have that problem before a certain unnamed patch. Now I have instilled it in my tanks that they must wait for me to BoV them before they pull anything. They all laugh at me ("may I pull now?") but it keeps the aggro off me in the early part of the fight and keeps them healed until I can start laying down the instants to cover the huge gaping holes in BoV and it's successor (uhh...can I really even call it that?), Supplicant. -- Nya
Hello tank here, just thought I might put in something I think helps. When I pull I like to turn the mob so its backs are to my priests and casters MT-mobs-casters, instead of mob-mt-casters. That way the MT can see if any mob(s) leave due to agro with caster/healer group easier. If you are facing the mob with the casters behind, you generally just see them poof and then have to turn around, find them and pursue. If they are in front and between us, then you can see them turn and change agro and maybe react fast enough to prevent the change in agro having an effect. Target, taunt them back, hit them and hopefully be able to return to original target. Agro management is a group job and anything that can be done to help is a good thing. <edit below> Also since we have eyes look back and front now, dealing with adds that pop or wander in can be done more efficiently too. Message Edited by Belce on 12-06-2004 05:39 PM
As I said in another thread, don't know how you guys talk about debuffs, for some reason my debuffs never land on the mobs when I'm grouping. When I group, we're normally fighting things red con with 1 or 2 arrows. My debuffs never land there, just a waste of time, and dangerous to the group. I simply don't debuff anymore, once in a while I try again to see if things changed, but they really never land on tough mobs. When I solo it's a different story, I actually pull with weakness and it works most of the time, but in groups? never works And my debuffs are either App3 or Adept 1, I got weakness several levels ago so I should be able to cast it at max power, yet it's always resisted. Is my character bugged?
benedicto, you must either be a very unlucky person, or be wrong How do you see they don't land? Looking at graphics? Anything else? Try setting up a new chat window, set it so it only shows successful spell casts by you (maybe fizzels and interrupts too), check how often you get an announcement there.
I don't have many problems with BoV and drawing agro from mobs because of it. Considering that our reactive heals seem to generate almost zero agro.. I'd take this to be a tanking/taunting problem and not some "stealth nerf". In what type of situations do the agro problems occur most? Message Edited by BlackFlowers on 12-08-2004 06:37 AM
Amazing when you get into a group with an alt or secondary healer and the main healer doesnt know to use BoV, and is out of mana half way through the fight.
27 templar here. First and foremost, I make sure that my armor and jewelry is up to date. The second something starts to turn white, I start on finding a replacement. Trying to keep my symbol and weapon up to date is a bit more difficult, but for me stats are more important than damage. I keep in good contact with a scribe, so almost all my spells are app III or better. Keeping your spells up to date is next to godlyness. Too often I get invites into groups substantially lower in level than I. If the tank is more then 2 levels lower than I am, I leave the group. It might sound rude, but it seems that I only get debt in groups that the tank is lower level. On my server (Lucan) it seems that people are leveling a bit slower than on others, so it is not always easy to find a group around my level. 1 tank is a new rule I have made for groups. Too often I have been invited into a group where there are 3 fighters, a druid/shammy, and a wizard or scout. The dps is much lower, which equates to longer kill times, and more healing. Anyhow, back to the subject at hand. My method of healing is as follows: Daring, Symbol of T, Redoubt self and tank, and Proctorate myself before anything =) As the tank is getting ready to pull, BoV him/her. If the target is ^ or ^^ (always orange or red), disgrace followed by combative faith. By then, the BoV usually has worn off, so combat healing and another Bov. If everything is going as it should, then the rest of the fight is spent nuking with combative faith(200+ damage), swinging the morningstar, and the occasional combat healing/BoV. With breeze going, this tactic means little if any down time for the group.
Great thread, guys! I stopped by today, just so I could find a discussion like this one I have to agree that Weakness and Rebuke are critically important to the success of any significant threat to your group. The mobs hit less and hit softer, and then get easier for your tanks to hit, respectively...what more can a templar ask?! When it comes to our actual healing powers, I've found that I have to use an entirely different strategy from the one I used as an EQLive cleric. Instead of casting big giant heals, our most efficient use of power comes from our reactive heal spells. It's important to note at this point that ALL of our reactive healing spells can stack (tested multiple times on 12/3 - 12/5 to ensure that statement was acccurate). So, just chaining casting BoV is not good use of our power reserves (I seem to see that way too often at lvl 20+...then I see them in here, complaining about how weak our healing is...sooo not true!). Anyway, the typical combo I use, when I'm the only templar in the group goes something like this: 1. BoV the MT, so he can survive the rest of the spell chain... 2. Weakness on the MT's target 3. Mark of Pawns on the MT's target ... 2nd layer of healing.... recast as needed 4. Rebuke the MT's target 5. BoV the MT 5a. Follow up with an Arch Heal, if your heals have fallen behind (the MT's bar turned orange) 6. Soothing Serman, if the first 5 aren't providing enough protection (3rd layer of reactive healing) 7. AoE Weakness on any non-mezzed mobs (a good amount of taunt has built up by now, with any MT worthy of your divine attentions) 8. Pop on a combat heal to top off the tank, and give him an offensive boost to finish off the mob. 9. Refresh Mark of Pawns (yes, it does have limited heals, just like BoV or SS) 10. Maybe end with Amending Fate, if everyone got hurt...otherwise skip it You're about about 50-70% power now, depending on your wisdom and power-stat items. Most of my spells are App III or Adept 1 at this point, and i'm fairly satisfied with my ability to keep a full group alive, while fighting ordinary encounters. I definately need a second healer in the group, if we're going to engage yellow or better group mobs...wasn't always true, but after level 20, the mobs really get a damage boost. Remember that courage, daring, and symbol will all stack, and tag the MT with redoubt (and then either yourself or a chanter, if you have one, to fill up the conc. bar). Reactive heals from every level also seem to stack (so you'll never put away BoV, even when you get the upgrade for it), although I'm seeing some unconfirmed reports that stacking BoV upgrades may have been nerf'd. And in the name of all that is good and holy, remember to eat and drink! Summoned food has the same impact as more expensive food, for the time being, although that's sure to change in the not-so-distant future. =) Take care brothers and sisters! -Shaar Goldentouch 22 Templar Black Dragons Unrest Server Message Edited by Rassan on 12-10-2004 08:48 AM
