Honestly, at this point you might as well make every class neutral. -Swashbucklers vs Brigands. Arguably Brigands are ruthless thugs, but Swashbucklers are outlaws all the same. -Conjuror vs Necromancer. Dartain, and really the whole city of Paineel, has taught us that Necromancy isn't such a bad thing after all. And really, a Conjuror made no sense being good only to begin with. We even have Najena, who is arguably a chaotic neutral Conjuror. -Shadowknight vs Paladin. This one's a bit of a stretch no matter how you look at it, to be honest. Paladins are rarely evil (Lucan D'Lere being a prime example), while Shadowknights are rarely good (I can't recall anyone off the top of my head that fits the category). -Mystic vs Defiler. To me a Defiler is basically a healer version of a Warlock, and Warlocks were neutral from day one. And a Mystic is basically a shaman version of a Templar, right? So if Templars get to be neutral, why aren't Mystics?
Gungo wrote: As I mentioned above, the Ashen Order in the Pillars of Flames used to live in Freeport, but chose to move out instead of bow down to Lucan's Rule. The Ashen Order is now split between the Order and the Disciples. The Order stays true to their teachings of following Quellious and and the Avatar of Tranquility. The Disciples shrug off the order's teachings and choose to just focus on physical enhancement. They've essentially become bruisers by doing this. Master Wu is the Demi-God of Enlightenment, not the Avatar of Tranquility. Yes, I know the Quellious avatar encounter had you fighting him. The Ashen Order, Silent Fist, the monks at the Encampment of Wu, and yes, the Swifttails, all follow or acknowledge the teachings of Master Wu. The Swifttails have changed their ways since EQlive, and even back then, when they embraced the idea of inflicting pain and fear to become stronger, this eventually lead some of them to inner peace and enlightenment. The Swifttails now take a more neutral stance in terms that they don't openly accept Venril Sathir's rule, but don't defy it either. They've also changed their ways so they don't focus specifically on physical training. As I said earlier, if there is an Evil Monk faction out there, it would be the Broken Shackle Clan inside Sebilis, who follow Venril Sathir.. However, like I've also been saying, there really isn't any explanation or lore that claims that they are monks, or just bruisers.
Yeah, I don't get it either.. Mystics can't be evil, and say follow Rallos Zek. But Templars can? Where's the line that got drawn there? If we're saying that a Priest is a Priest is a Priest.. like Druids always were, then why do Shaman - the Tribal version of the Priests - get limited to good or evil? Even more baffling is the fact Assassins can be good now, but Brigands can't? Um, Brigands are a lesser baddie.. they are just after the money, I could see a neutral or even good version of this. Assassins KILL for a living.. uh.. hmm. This somehow reminds me of parents letting their kids watch brutal violence but not sex in a movie. I don't get it, the priorities are out of whack. Mainly, I'm kind of happy to see some new options, but just don't understand how or why they drew the line. I have always seen a lot of the Evil classes as more 'greedy' than evil, or just rough around the edges. A dark hooded stalker type can certainly apply to the evil Ranger, and a Bouncer working outside a Qeynos pub could be a Bruiser.. but then why can Swashbucklers not be cruel swordsman/pirates or Mystics not be brutal tribal warmongers? There's just no rhyme or reason. Lore needs rhyme or reason, and it needs consistency. Oh well, I'll roll with it.. my Guild has wanted a Ranger in Freeport anyway.
Cusashorn wrote: Master wu has been refered as the avatar of tranquility several times in EQ2 lore. If in eq1 he is refered to the demi god of enlightenment that is NOT canon to eq2 lore. Regardless of how you spin lore to fit your need the disciples are MONKS, they have monk buffs. The swifttail monks still worship cazic thule and thus are evil, I honestly do not know where you pull out your lore about them following master wu. The broken shackle clan was outside sebilis where you had to do the shackle quest series. They are not even true followers of venril and are at odds with him. Honestly you are just making lore up at this point and have no idea what you are talking about.
Cusashorn wrote: There's actually a legitimate lore reason as to why Dwarves can be monks. Back in the Age of War, I think, a dwarf named Tongar Sledgefist happened upon a travelling monk. They befriended each other, and the monk trained Tongar. After putting a dwarven spin on the style, he returned to Kaladim, and founded the Order of Hammering Fists, which was soon added to the Stormguard after younger dwarves started to defect to the Order. When I imagine the style they used, I think of the Bruiser style, a slugger sort of style. Evil monks: Cazic-Thule-worshipping Iksar monks. 'Nough said. As for good Assassins: Think of the Assassin's Creed series. Altair, Ezio de Auditore de Firenze... That sort of assassin. Killers that kill for the greater good. They just use stealth, poison, and shady tactics to accomplish their goals. I don't like the idea of evil rangers, though. Opens the door to make too many Drizzt-characters. As for Templars and Inquisitors, I'm all for them becoming neutral. Same for Illusionists. Not so much for Coercers, unless they're portrayed in Qeynos as psychics.
The only way I can see a Dark-Monk would be if as a form of Balance (Perhaps they follow the Nameless or the Tribunal) is Perhaps too much GOOD has been happening in a region and the people will become complacent, a Dark-Monk would be needed to slip in and "balance" the issue. But that's more philosophical, Developers it would help if there is an emerging need (lore-wise) for the change!!!
Just my 2 cents.... When i create new characters now-a-days, i want them to be unique. Like an Ogre monk, or a dark elf Conjuror. Making classes that are now currently good/evil to making them nuetral will defeat the purpose of having a "unique" character. For those that are either too lazy to betray, or dont know the process it will make it easier for them to have a unique character, but if this change goes through there will be no such thing as a "unique" character. Its like taking away ppl's names and just giving them a number.
kelvmor wrote: Funny thing. Tallon Zek would make the perfect diety for an evil ranger. There isn't any other diety out there that specializes in ranged combat. Also it is very easy to imagine that the Deathfist Orcs of Zek have learned everything they could possibly want to about rangers. The main headquarters of druids is located in Darklight Woods. Druids and Rangers have had a long association in EQ1. (arguably druids should of been the "good" priest. Druids were restricted to good races only in EQ1, while evil clerics and shamman were everywhere.) With the main hall of druids being located in DLW it would only be natural for young tier'dal to find rangers capable of training them in their ways. The rangers might even use thier training as a way to influence a younger generation to question the way in which their society works. Strange question: are Jedi evil? Jedi use a form of mind control. While it isn't exactly charm it is altering another person's mind for their own benifit. And while the queen herself might object to this form of magic, that doesn't mean that some of her followers wouldn't persue it if allowed. Sure, they live on a morally slippery slope, but no more so than a Bezerker who could loose self control and kill their closest companions and loved ones in a moment of uncontrolled passion. Inquisitors are zelots. As such, they never question their own motives. An Inquisitor serving Mithanial Marr would see himself as a champion of good, rooting out evil no matter where it will hide. He would be willing to cleanse the land of the taint of evil, with his sermons, with hot irons, and with his own two bloodstained hands if it comes to that. Certainly many of his fellow worshipers would call his methods into question, but never his faith.
Good coercers and assassins are just laughable.... Between F2P and this BS all I have is one movie quote "Game over man"
Gungo wrote: "The Swifttail Caste of monks survived the fall of Cabilis and have relocated their temple training ground to Kunzar Jungle." "a Broken Shackle initiate" http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trial_of_Tynnonium Gungo, you and I both need to realize that neither one of us is perfect. I know my Monk lore, and have been corrected quite a few times for other things, but you're not perfect either.
The fact that my Dark Elf Monk (who I went through the ORIGINAL betrayal quest with) will no longer be unique is mildly annoying, but the fact that she can walk into Qeynos or Kelethin unmolested (sans a few tiresome snide remarks -SHE WILL NOT TEACH YOU NECROMANCY YOU IDIOT ERUDITE- Sorry for the rant ) and can own a house in Halas is unique.
Phia@Nagafen wrote: Its called ADVERTISING!! Something that they still haven't figured out after all these years.
Cusashorn wrote: I did not do the monk epic so i did not see he was a demi-god of the plane of serenity. The fact remains whether he was a demi god or not he is still the avatar of tranquility. If you actually read the book you posted the avatar of tranquility TOOK back the plane of serenity from master wu since she needed the power. He has since been considered the avatar of tranquility. He was the avatar of tranqulity in the battle of defiance that defeated the avatar of war. And as such throughout the entire history of eq2 he has been the avatar of tranquility and not a demigod. Also all those links on the swifttail caste and yet there is NO reference anywhere of the swifttail monks being followers of master wu and turning away from cazic thule. You are correct though and I did make the mistake of stating the broken shackle monks were all located outside sebilis. But if you did the quest series for the shackles you would see they are at odds with venril.
Last I heard, Monks weren't required to follow Master Wu or Quellious in EQ2. Maybe in EQ1 where classes were restricted by religion. But here they are not. Tier'dal Monk of Innoruuk. Why is this possible? Because Monks, unlike Bruisers are more focused and disciplined. Your Bruiser is like Chuck Liddell from UFC. Your monk is probably more like Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris. In otherwords, two different fighting styles. Being evil or good doesn't mean you can't be focused. In fact in that example, monks make more sense then bruisers. Monks are Strikers, Bruisers are Grapplers. I'm sorry some of you had a preformed conception of what monks are, but that conception has now changed. Want to be good? Play good. But live and let live and let the evils have their stuff too. Besides some of you aren't even playing on RP servers, this change will largely Not affect you. However I do play on the RP servers and the reception of these changes is postitive from most of who I've spoken to. As for good assassins, what do you think our Army Special Forces are? Pretty good at taking out both military and political targets. In fact the only difference between Rangers and Assassins is one melees and the other uses a bow. About time this was reflected in the mechanics of alignment. In EQ1 the Scouts of Tunare (rogue guild) had feir'dal assassins of their own to counter the Ebon Mask. I haven't seen it in this thread so far, but Illusionists and Coercers seem ok with everyone. This just makes sense. If anyone thinks otherwise, there's no hope for you. Inquisitors and Templars. Merely different functions of their respective churches. I plan on RPing an Inquisitor of Mithaniel Marr in fact. There were a few that were hestiant about this, but I was easily able to convice (convert maybe..?) them otherwise. But then again, no one expects the Marr Inquisition XD
Don't stress on it guys! I'm sure they'll add a full lore explanation to the Marketplace any day now.
Gungo wrote: I never really said the Swifttails followed Master Wu. All I said was that even in EQlive, despite being more aggressive, many Swifttails found enlightenment through thier own methods of training, and some even learned to respect others and not be so rash to fight. Nowadays, the Swifttails seem to take a fairly neutral stance to the politics in Kunark, and allow outsiders the chance to prove themselves to them. They are at odds with Venril, but aren't making him an enemy. He allows them to train on their island, and if I remember correctly, they would have to fight for him if needed. It's just that the Broken Shackle clan inside Sebilis completely disregard everything the Swifttails stand for. They're malevolent fighters who are completely loyal to Venril. I would like to think this change in attitude might be a result of some of the grandmasters realizing that they can't prove themselves and get everything they want through agressiveness. It's the Grandmaster of the Swifttails who helps you reconstruct the Hand of Serenity as well. He mentions how Master Wu has influenced his own training style over the years, and is one person he truely respects. Anyways, back to the matter at hand, as I've mentioned before, I really wouldn't have much of a problem with this if only everything was given a proper explanation.
I still don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around good assassins. Though, TBH, you gotta admit, there's gotta be some sort of sneaky, hired murderer lurking about Qeynos. A couple more of those wouldn't be too bad. One in particular, from the HQ, is Lodo Bightn, that halfling that hangs around Irontoes in NQ.
