Well, they really don't look the same. Yes, same shape - but the different skin matters when decorating. Also, if the OP didn't realize the difference in mats when selecting what to research s(he) now has to wait 2 more weeks to research the other, easier, recipe. Plus, this is the 'solo' advanced apprentice. There's also a raid one. So it is not unreasonable to assume that anything researched by the former would not require a raid drop. Either way, I agree with the OPs primary point - it is rather odd/silly for furniture of all things to require a raid drop. Especially when that raid drop can and will be used for items that are more-useful to the acquiring guild.
I don't know if it is a misprint, as I can't be bothered to try to get the raid apprentice, but in the list that shows for Yelnar's recipes at EQ2 Traders Corner, only one of the the carpenter items requires any prime components (you'll have to scroll down quite a bit): Arcane Dragon Statue, Version 1 ...........| 3000 rent status reduction ..| 1 tungsten ore, 1 banyan root, 1 bubinga lumber, 10 effulgent sandpaper Benevolent Dragon Statue, Version 1 | 3000 rent status reduction | 1 tungsten ore, 1 prime skyshrine golem core, 1 prime maligonian horn, 10 effulgent sandpaper Drakota Statue, Version 1..................... | 3000 rent status reduction ..| 1 tungsten ore, 1 banyan root, 1 bubinga lumber, 10 effulgent sandpaper Fierce Dragon Head Statue, Version 1 ....| 3000 rent status reduction ..| 1 tungsten ore, 1 banyan root, 1 bubinga lumber, 10 effulgent sandpaper Noble Dragon Head Statue, Version 1 .....| 3000 rent status reduction ..| 1 tungsten ore, 1 banyan root, 1 bubinga lumber, 10 effulgent sandpaper
I don't know which ones the OP was referring to, but I have crafted all the other statues. I was referring to the benevolent dragon statue.
Just to throw a little fuel on the fire raids get all kind of things thrown at them for rewards. The usual gear is expected. Some of the more unusual rewards have been very interesting. Various mounts. Crafting components. I think the most unusual was a prestige house. The prestige house was recently made available via Loyalty tokens but there was a good 2 years there where if you wanted the Kael house you needed to do the raid it dropped from. I think things like this are interesting and I don't mind seeing them being offered to raiders. It makes the game more interesting. Kind of like finding +crafting gear on a heroic mob. Crafting doesn't prepare you for getting that gear, but if you don't craft you don't have an interest in it. Saying that everything that interests a crafter needs to come from crafting is like saying every kind of gear needs to drop for every play style. It seems a bit naïve.
Well, if that's the case, then it should be balanced against the rest of the recipes. Nevermind making the horns come from another source. I was under the impression those raid versions all required some raid component. My mistake for not looking any closer.
Looking on EQ2 Furniture, it also has the Benevolent Dragon Statue, Version 1 being the only one that requires prime components out of the house items.
That is the one I was talking about as well. I know there is another one I can make, but as someone said, this one has a unique skin which I would love for a project I'm working on. I have the Yelnar apprentice, because I found the stone ungodly cheap on the broker and jumped on it. I, also, am not complaining that these are available for Raiders. I would just like a way to obtain this as well.
We're talking about one statue out of the five from Yelnar's recipes that actually requires prime components. You can't just use one of the other four statues with that color of texture until you can get the prime maligonian horn and prime skyshrine golem core?
Really its just as easy to get the components in Sleeper's Tomb: the Awakening. Heck at this point of the game, you can 1-group the raid mobs for the components. One needed 100 celestial motes to craft a "furniture" item when they added the Arena of the Gods... At least you can easily get what you need for the dragon statue. It still takes a raid to get the components to make the portal.
I guess that's why eq2 had one of the lowest populations. I wish they'd remove raiding entirely and leave the game to the people that actually play it several hours a day.
You really don't know what your talking about, do you? Poking around the internet the most recent info I can find for EQ2 is 4 year old. At that time it is still listed as a subscription based game. Since then EQ2 went free to play and the user base exploded. Even with that growth it doesn't place EQ2 in the top 3, but I think it is in the top 10. Considering the age of the game and how many MMOs have been introduced, peaked and fallen below EQ2's level saying that EQ2 has one of the lowest populations is just ignorant. I will say that EQ2 has a top heavy population. Leveling from 1-90 you won't see a whole lot of other people. Once you break into the top end of the game...and you'll discover there are other people playing this game. As for activities that keep players in EQ2 I'll say that every activity keeps some people playing. There are people that play EQ2 mainly to decorate. There are people that play to craft. There are people who like running around and killing trash mobs. Over and over again. I don't get them, but I know they exist. There are people that love to just RP with others, and Norrath is their home. But the largest segment of players that keep playing EQ2 raid. They might not all think of themselves as raiders, they certainly wouldn't all be considered "hard core", but week after week they come back because there is a raid to go to. While they are raiding they catch up with people they see every week. They talk, they joke, they get serious for a moment and they goof off. In short, they have fun. The raid is something they do when they get together, but it isn't the only reason they are there. And then there is the 1% who are hardcore raiders. That might be larger than 1% now, but its easier to explain that they aren't your typical raider. They group with people they really don't care about because those people want to "progress" as much as they do and they are willing to put up with people they don't like because they are busy chasing the carrot that is raiding. EQ2 need them too, because the rest of the raiders pattern themselves off the 1%'s success. EQ2 needs to bring more people in, it doesn't need to sacrifice one aspect of the game to concentrate on another and disenfranchise a segment of its population. Like it has with crafting in the past. (staring at you dev, don't neglect us again)
It is kinda true, from a certain point of view. Unless a game is #1 in terms of population, it will have a lower population than something. #2 would be kinda iffy, since it is lower but including it would kinda throw the -est suffix in question. Through that paradigm, one could state that the #3 in population is one of the lowest - as long as it is understood that the set of games that is counted as among the lowest in population consists of all but the top two games in terms of populations.
I'd argue against that idea that most players are raiders, just from personal experience. The two raiders who were in our guild (not hard-core, just participated in raids weekly) both quit because the raid schedule was getting to be too much work. I, on the other hand, am in game almost every day, and I do not raid. I craft, I solo or group with friends, I chat on test and crafting and, when it's active, guk.lore. While anecdotal evidence may not be statistically significant, I think only the developers have the actual statistics of who logs on when and what they do. Have I raided in the past? A few times. Will I raid in the future? Maybe. Not if I can explore the zone/learn the lore another way. Even "casual" raids on old content have been way too fast with way too much pressure for me, with no chance to actually look around or read what the mobs are saying. I play this game to relax, not to increase my tension levels. If you're counting me as a raider because I have raided in the past, and might run a greyed-out raid with my friends or actually deal with a raid or two for something I really want (the devs are STILL not forgiven for the Chelsith Stone), then I think you are grossly misrepresenting raiders. But then, the fact that you say yourself that people you would call raiders would not call themselves that also indicates that. If someone who raids once a week doesn't consider themselves a raider, that's their decision. And if they are spending the other 3 days a week they log on doing other stuff, then their definition of themselves is fairly accurate.
Lodrenlhai, just going to throw this out there. Can you think of a hundred players that play the game like you do? I can think of a hundred raiders. Easily. I don't consider you a raider. What I do consider a "raider" is someone that participates in current content that was designed for more than 6 players. I don't mean they raid every day. I don't mean they raid every week. I do mean that raid content is something that excites them and they are generally interested in it, even if they don't regularly participate. In other words, people that are more casual than Lodrenlhai and play far less can be raiders. It has more to do with the desire to do the content, get the rewards and making an effort to participate in those activities. I think that if Lodrenlhai is expecting a "raider" to be as active as she (he?) is that would match my description of a "hardcore" raider. I think I did a decent job of presenting the two as different kinds of gamers. I suppose this would make Lodrenlhai a "hardcore casual"? "Hardcore crafter"? /shrug One last thing I want to point out. I am not considering F2Players. In general, they aren't going to stick around. Dev needs to think about retaining players, and raiding is one of the top 3 carrots that EQ2 has to offer the long term player. Actually it is the number 1, but it isn't like that is the only draw for long term players.
I am going to do what I probably should have done the first time, quote the portion of the post where Merirril defines a raider. Compare this to what Meirril says in response to me is a raider: When I replied, the proposed definition of raider was that they came back week after week because there was a raid to do. While raiding they socialize with the people they see "every week" (presumably at the raid). While it is not all they do, it is what they do regularly. So now we are cutting the "raids every week" portion, and inserting instead, "participates in current content that was designed for more than 6 players." I think this is still hazy, because it includes people who might ask to join a raid because that is the only place the story is told. Most recent storylines have been fortunately open to multiple playstyles seeing a version of the main conflict, but the only way I'm going to experience Age's End is by joining a raid force in the final showdown with Kerafyrm. So I, who am most definitely not a raider, could qualify as one in this definition if I knew of a raid force who'd be willing to let me piggyback so I could experience the latest story firsthand. Someone similar to me, but willing to do the extra work of gearing up and actively trying to get into raids to experience the latest story firsthand, would also still be a raider per this definition, even if they only raid until they have successfully experienced the top end content once or twice, then spend the rest of their game time crafting, soloing, chatting in cross-server channels, or hunting for shinies. This is defining people not by how they spend the largest portion of their game time, or what they prefer doing in game, or even by how they define themselves, but by whether they happen to also participate in one particular portion of game content on an intermittent basis. The question has been raised if I know 100 people who play the game like I do. I could probably name 100 crafters, easily more than 100 testers. 100 lore fans is harder now, but they're probably still out there. I'd argue that 100 raiders is an easier list to gather because raiding, by definition, gathers a significant number of them in one spot at one time. If your raid guild or alliance has 4 squads, there's your 100. No other content in the game requires a large mass of the people who participate in that content to gather together at once in order to experience it. I think a more significant flag for whether to consider someone a raider/crafter/lore fan/insert-content-of-choice-participant, besides what they self-define as, might be what portion of the content they would participate in if the rewards for that content were available by other means. I'm comfortable calling myself a crafter not just because I craft on multiple characters, but because even though for most of the game a significant portion of crafted items (armor, weapons, spell upgrades) were surpassed by similar items obtainable by other means (quest gear, dropped masters). I was crafting because I enjoyed the quests, because crafting is relaxing, because harvesting in areas with hostile mobs 20+ levels above mine was an achievement all on its own. I'm a tester because I like pushing boundaries, finding loopholes, and helping to make the game better. I'm a lore fan because this game's lore is incredible, because I love all the fine details and unlocking obscure references, and because I am even willing to do things I don't otherwise enjoy if I can be there in person for the story climax. I am not a raider because if that story climax can be experienced any other way than a raid, I will go with that other way. Of course, this would also probably eliminate from the "raider" camp every person who has ever suggested there be alternate means to get raid gear, because obviously if they could get the reward another way, they would.
Lots of nit picking. Lots of passive aggressive behavior. Let me do what I probably should have done the first time: What is your point?
My point is that you are making a claim that the majority of people who keep playing EQ2 raid. The implication, given other posts in this thread, is that having materials to craft items which give absolutely no benefit to raiding locked inside a raid is perfectly fine, because most people will have access to them immediately anyway. The ones that don't can just wait around a while until the other, raid-useful items made from the same materials are no longer in high demand, and/or until the game level increases to the point that only a few top-level characters are needed to farm those components. I don't believe most players raid, or that the raids are what keeps bringing them back. Of course, all my evidence is anecdotal, as is yours - only the staff, and probably only certain members of the staff, actually know how many players spend how much time in which portions of the game. Given the current tendency for there to be non-raid - even non-group - options to experience signature storylines, I would guess that at least the devs think it is worth the extra time to make the kind of content that used to be raid/group-only accessible to the solo and small group players. Which implicates that we are a significant, and probably growing, portion of the population. How this relates to this thread: while I don't have a problem with materials for raid-useful items dropping in raids, having materials for a house item that has no other value than being a house item drop in a raid zone seems pretty ridiculous. I do not believe they will be immediately accessible to the majority of players, nor that it is acceptable because several years down the line the game will have advanced so far that the content will be trivial. I'm not arguing that the prime maligonian horns should never have been raid drops - they are used to make what were, at the time, raid-useful items. But I very much question the purpose of making them also required materials for house items. It's not the first time this argument's come up, and sadly probably won't be the last. But the more we speak against it, the more likely the devs will reconsider this in the future - or at the very least, start making those materials available via other means (rare chance from apprentice? add to the TS dungeon drop tables?) once they are no longer end-game content. At least then we're only waiting and hanging on one year at most, instead of hashing this out without a decent solution two and a half years later.
Your misconstruing what I've said and you either don't want to or do not get what I'm saying. At no point do I claim people are going to have access to them immediately. Even if the parts are very common drops like said Primal Maligonian Horns as long as they remain top tier components the other uses for them (namely: arrows) are going to take priority over things that don't benefit a raid (like a statue). I think I made the rest of the argument clear enough to be understood. I don't feel a need to repeat myself again. As for the rest of your argument, its interesting. In part your pointing out that this whole back and forth is meaningless and neither of us should bother. I tend to agree. Unless you think there is a misunderstanding I think we're done.
Not sure if it's been mentioned but you can get the prime maligonian horns (and others) in the non-CoE Sleeper's Tomb heroic zone. Every named in there drops an Ancient Draconic Phylactery which can be consumed for a random crafting item used in those recipes, including the fabled ones. And as a bonus, if you can do the two named in hard mode, you can get an Ancient Prime Draconic Phylactery which guarantees a fabled crafting component.
You're very first post in this thread, the first reply to the OP, says that these recipes were not made for "us" (crafters), but for raiders. You then point out it is not current content, so crafters can get together 1-2 groups to farm them. You follow this up by saying that the biggest portion of the player base raid anyway. If the majority of players raid, and these are intended for raiders, and the raids will eventually be accessible by non-raiders when they are no longer top-tier, how does this not indicate that most people can get the items and the few who can't should suck it up and wait their turn? Of these arguments, it is true that the raid drops become much easier to access once they are no longer top-tier content. Recipes, their components, and their products being made for crafters to obtain is an ongoing argument, and I believe there are cases when locking these behind non-crafting content makes sense - such as things designed to use in raids being obtained from raids (or possibly challenge mode heroic, if it's a matter of gearing up to be able to do the raid). Furniture items that do not offer buffs or quick-travel to the raid zone or anything but status reduction for rent, to my mind, should not fall among those cases. This seems to be the main issue raised in this thread. But the point of raids being the highest-population content, being the reason the majority of players log on from week to week? It's an anecdotal argument, because you only have your own experience to go by; I offered mine in contrast. It suggests misdirection, however unintended, answering the argument, "Why does solo-play content (because house decorating is solo play content) require raiding?" with "What does it matter where it comes from, since most people raid anyway?" - which doesn't actually address the argument at all. And it leads to appeal to majority, because if most players can get the thing that most players can use, then the system to obtain it works just fine. That's a heck of a lot of fallacies in one argument. Which is why that's where I decided to put my oar in. There's too much wrong with that statement to let it stand unchallenged.
