Make Guardian Moderate ability multitarget using concentration..

yea well.. nerfing crusaders isin't going to fix guard issues.
so jump off that band wagon please.
i have been playing a guard since dof and an sk since eof and i can assure you SK is about where it should be as a class. the proc nerf all ready have brougth crusaders down near where they should be. what needs to happen now, is guard should get the clear upper hand in survivability or recive the same amount of dps tank abitlitys that dps tanks recived from defensive tanks. brawlers are being reworked completely it seems so ill wait and see then comment on that but it better involve "true" aoe attack AA or ability so some sort for at least one brawler.

Bruener wrote:

I have to agree with Bruener that it seems it would be OP'd if it proc'd AE everytime it proc'd. But I'm against it for another reason. I would be forced to turn off that spell when fighting, or fighting in proximity to, non-aggro mobs. Assuming it would proc out of encounter. And it needs to to do any good as a true AoE ability. We don't know how to content will be laid out in the upcoming expac. But I would not be surprised if there are dungeons that have a mix of aggro/non-aggro mobs.
I be more in favor of Battle Cry having that awesome hate component on it like Death March has. Make the recast, cast speed and duration match Death March and Battle Cry becomes a nice AoE snap and threat. Being the only real AoE threat would not allow the guard to tank OT however. The adjusted Battle Cry would make a good snap and would be some threat it would not OP the guard, because it only affect's the guard's group and the guard has no other AoE threat skills to hold the AE mobs.
Group Moderate could aid in addressing the gap between taunt (which guards are designed to rely on) and dps. Giving guards flexibility in group makeup, while the adjusted Battle Cry could just be the one decent AoE threat/snap we need to grab each mobs attention without increasing our DPS.

EverRude wrote:

Yeah I can see now that making it AE and upping its values would be too much.
HTL is one of those bufffs/abilities that has become rather useless as the game has evolved away from small amounts of +threat meaning anything. Seems like a good place to give us some sorta boost since it pretty worthless as it stands today.
Maybe make it AE but not increase the threat amount. I am fine with having to be careful in areas where there is danger of aggroing things you dont want. That to me would just be another factor of being a good tank or being lazy.

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

Honestly the addition of the new taunt mechanics is going to change a lot of these abilities. Assuming that they will allow the taunt proc to be affected by the mechanics the numbers are going to jump a huge amount. I mean +base taunt and +taunt crit is going to double to triple all those abilities.
50% of everytime a mob hitting you having it do 1800 hate to the mob will go a long ways to hold hate in AE situations. There would still be the issue of being with a Warlock probably but with any other DPS class it would be enough to hold hate. Throw in the idea of a Group Moderate to take care of those pesky AE'ers and at the heroic level I really don't see Guards having AE issues than.
I guess my biggest concern is that people are making pretty crazy suggestions without remembering that SOE is adding some mechanics for taunts anyway. Taunt crit and +base taunt are going to be huge and will mean taunts increase the same as DPS.
As an example think about what Guards are doing right now...DPS and their taunts. Now triple all those taunt values and think about how much easier it is going to be to hold hate. That is what the mechanic changes are going to do.

Bruener wrote:

Well we can only talk about facts we know. I have not seen anything about what is comming with the expansion. The assumption is that it will be something similar to what was in that revamp. WIth any luck it will just be the new taunt mechanics and not any of that other crap associated with buffs and stances they tried to pull.

EverRude wrote:

If you had a healer, and could sustain that fight for say a 3 min durration, you would find the benefit of the aoe lifetap would be deminished. Or as I mean to say, the solo testing you did cause of the low durration for both tanks causes the lifetap to be over estimated in your numbers.
Your examples are still helpful, they just aren't inclusive enough to represent practical application.
I almost have a full set of t3 on my sk, and I have a full set banked on my guard. As soon as I can put them both in similar gear, I'll group them with my warden and dirge and pull the first floor of B:COA and do some survivability parsing. I can just spam heal with warden and auto follow for dirge buffs and provide a more accurate over time comparison with conditions that are more practicle in application.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

What AOE fight last over 3 min or even 1 min for that matter(none raid)? I see your point but it dosn't matter because of how fast fights last. If normal fights lasted over half a min I could sort of agree with you on losing some def but as it is now I can't and think it would **** us even more.

Yeah I wish SOE would just come right out and say what changes they have in mind. Changing taunt values and adding crit alone would help guardians a lot. But will the proc from HTL crit? Or Dark Caress for SK for that matter? If not that skill will remain subpar.

Provided they don't go overboard with taunt values and crit, the group moderate should be needed. Especially if they remove hate mod/transfers from the game as they planned before. If they go overboard we will all be easy mode taunt bots anyways.

I don't want them going too far though. I'll take taunt bot over not playing at all, but would rather need some thought and strategy to tank.

Toran@Oasis wrote:

Do you wait more than 4 seconds between pulls?
The reason this provides better data is it accomidates for the full reuse timers of all abilities to show a more pratical comparison between the two.

EverRude wrote:

Given the person in charge of this is no longer at SoE, and they haven't publicly announced who the replacement is, and the time it might take for them to come up to speed...
I'm not sure they know what they want to do yet.

Actually that would be at a minimum 3 min fight, even with the SK. Pulling the whole top floor? I think you'll loose your healer before the tank drops as I am sure you suspect.

But it is also true that in reality few fights last that long with a full group 2 min maybe with a reasonable pace though CoA. But more like 20 seconds for you average fight through most other lower tier shard zones. CoA is a special zone that requires some specifc tactics. Unless your loaded with AE tank and DPS then it's the funniest zone to play IMO.

I disagree with your premise that most fights are much longer than my test was but I certainly would love to see the results.

Atan, I would like to recommend you test in NA. The first 3 groups of mobs are pretty much consistently 4 level 83's. If you grab all 3 groups even with your T3 and Myths you should manage a 3 min fight.

I say this because CoA mobs vary in level and quantity a lot more which introduces more veriance to you test.

EverRude wrote:

I can test both, I was looking for longer durrations to represent normal gameplay more accurately, that being nearly constant pulling/fighting with little to no downtime.
It may take me 2-3 more woe runs to get the SK enough gear to get them on the same relative gear point. So might take a week.

Atan@Unrest wrote:


EverRude wrote:


Atan, I would like to recommend you test in NA. The first 3 groups of
mobs are pretty much consistently 4 level 83's. If you grab all 3 groups
even with your T3 and Myths you should manage a 3 min fight.


I say this because CoA mobs vary in level and quantity a lot more which
introduces more veriance to you test.


I can test both, I was looking for longer durrations to represent normal
gameplay more accurately, that being nearly constant pulling/fighting
with little to no downtime.

It may take me 2-3 more woe runs to get the SK enough gear to get
them on the same relative gear point. So might take a week.




I know what you're saying. I agree it's a fair test. I doubt it'll reveal a lot different than mine did. However I just think that CoA is a bad spot due to the level problem. Sometimes those mobs are nearly all level 80 sometimes level 81 and sometimes a 50/50 mix. Either tank fighting more yellows than whites will be damaged more than one fighting more whites than yellows.

Also you would seriously impress me if your group of 3 can take down the first 3 groups in NA in less than 3 min.

EverRude wrote:

Heh, I know they can take em down, but yeah, I dunno about 3 mins. I'm just looking for 3 mins worth of data really if I can get it.

Atan@Unrest wrote:


EverRude wrote:


Also you would seriously impress me if your group of 3 can take down the
first 3 groups in NA in less than 3 min.


Heh, I know they can take em down, but yeah, I dunno about 3 mins. I'm
just looking for 3 mins worth of data really if I can get it.


Do you have concern that perhaps the dirge buffs may affect one tank more than the other. Like the parry buffs adding more to SK than Guard if the guard is closer to cap? Or do you plan to turn the defensive buffs off from your group members.

Also I'm sure you are far more skilled than I at using act but can you accurately separate the healing from healer and SK? I assume there is some way to figure out how much of the SK's healing had an impact? Afterall part of the issue was to show whether the SKks life tap compensated fully for his lack of defence compared to thr Guard.

I ask this stuff now to avoid as much of the "but you test isn't accurate because..." crap will most likely come up for you as it did myself. By introducing more variables you add to the difficutly of getting consistent results.

I am certain that if I ran my tests again I could get more consistent results at the high end for both classes because I needed to "practice" a bit.

I appreciate that you willing to attempt it. Good luck on yer WoE drops. That place gets frtustrating after a while.

Group moderate would help, a boost to htl would help(but not pbaoe that is a little overboard a better proc rate and a reasonable amount of hate) and some sort of open aoe hate(no dps) would help. My Biggest beef with the guard is this..I raid the guard I clear totmc, clear PoA kill zarakon get to yke all tanking on the guard(with help of the ot on respected ifghts) after raid i wana do some heroic instances well unless I have a dirge + hate xfer or a group with out a illy,warlock, conjy the guard is ****, and that my friends is complete BS there is no balance in the game to make that fair or FUN. Keyword there is FUN its a game its meant to be fun if its not fun and its meant to be fun than something is wrong. There is no reason why i should have to take my lesser geared pally over my guard for anything, especially to do heroic junk. My guard should be able to take any group thrown at him just as my pally can and do the dam zone, while having fun. Sure the guard can do it but was it fun, no. I dont play the pally because I want two tanks I play two tanks because 1 is fun for heroic content and the other is not. The guard is fun for raids but thats cause hes got all the buffs and the RESPECT for being the tank. The bs that dps needs to relies what tank there with is and adjust accordingly is just that BS, the dps should have to adjust he what buffs the tank has Ie dirge coe and transfer but that adjustment should account for EVERY tank...The balance of tanks should be measured by DPS and Defense not hate. All tanks regardless of class should be able to hold = hate. But the more dps the fighter can do the less defense and less taunt value the fighter has and the more defense the less dps and more taunt. so for example the offensive tank would get an attack that does 5k damage where the defensive tanks gets an attack thats 5k taunt thuse in the end the hate is equal, granted taunts get crit and + taunt amounts at the same rate you can get crit and +ca amounts. That would still leave people with a decision when they make a tank of what they want to do. Do I wanna be a DPS tank or a defensive tank than you ask your self am I a warrior crusader or a brawler. That would still leave people with the choice of having a slower moving group vrs a faster moving group this would still let the Offensive tanks tank the end game stuff once they get the gear that the defensive tanks where needed for in progression. This is hard to do though because than you need to Define defensive tanks and offensive tanks and than balance there dps vrs defense than = that to each others hate. Actually its not hard.
also its 6 am I just got back from the bars Im tired so proofreading and correting mistakes is beyond me atm. But anyone that disagrees with the basics of waht I say just either A. wants to remian the supreme tanks or B. wants the supreme tank tittle back, I'm not looking to be the supreme tank I'm looking for tanks to actually be balanced and regardles of what some may think tanks right now are far from balanced even further than they have been before.

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

On pvp servers hold the line is 50% chance to force target for 3 seconds. In pve its just raw hate proc. I prefer the pvp version. It would probably be op, but its in the right direction.