Mage ranking in dps/survivability/utility

Bigron@Unrest wrote:

I play with extremely competent players, Summoners are not supposed to be tier 1 DPS. I don't understand why everyone thinks we should top the charts. I consistantly parse 2nd through 5th place on raids which is not right. Sorcerers need a boost to their DPS. I'll agree with you on utility, we could use a bit more. However, it also seems like you're wanting Bard utility, which we are not supposed to have.
Summoners are supposed to represent a balance in utility and DPS, they are not supposed to really shine in one or the other. I guess the best Necro YOU have personally seen parses 7th or 8th on parses but to be pefectly honest the Summoner mechanic attracts incompetent players, which I think is why we have such a bad reputation, leading to people not wanting us in groups.
If you're pitying me for being a skilled Necromancer don't worry about it, keep your apology. I'm fine with the class to be perfectly honest. Rezzing, hearts, feign death, infinite power, spot healing, pet pulling - I'm sure I'm missing a thing or two - is enough utility for me. Sure, some other classes can do some of that better than us, but hey - that's what balance is about. And once again I'll reiterate, our DPS is fine.

Rezzing - Job for priests and Dirges. Dirges are also vital to a successful raid. And you rezzing = lost DPS.
Hearts - Hearts haven't been terribly useful for a long time, especially with Illusionist Mythicals around.
Feign Death - Tinkerers can also feign, as can brawlers and shadowknights (the latter of which is actually useful on raids these days).
Infinite Power - Power regen for everyone basically means you don't run out of power anymore regardless of class. Hardly a selling point.
Spot Healing - Priests do it far better, faster, and again hurts your DPS. I might also point out that healing is their job.
Pet Pulling - Oh please, you actually call that utility? Let the defiler or mystic pet pull, or the illusionist, or even the templar hammer pull.
Again it's not a player issue: The best summoners in the entire game barely earn their spot in a raid. And it's because Summoners as a class don't bring anything to a raid that other classes don't bring along, and do better.

Ralniv@Venekor wrote:

What you describe as utility is not since there are multitude of classes that do it better.
What you describe as good dps is not since there is a multitude of classes that do it better.
What you think is fine is not when there are classes that both do better dps and also provide more usefull utility to the raid improveing the raid as a whole
My point still stands necros/conjs as role difineing classes are a black hole where you are out shined in all catagorys by multiple classes in each.

Xalmat wrote:

I could sit here and point out reasons why every single one of those abilities are still useful and utility recognizable for us, but I'm not going to win you guys over so there's no point. One point I will give you is that I can't think of anything unique Necros bring. At least Conjies have CoTH.
Xalmat do you play a Necro? I'm not trying to call you out or anything, just curious.

Bigron@Unrest wrote:

So what you want is to be either tier 1 DPS or tier 1 utility? Role a different class my friend. Summoners are the balance, tier 2 DPS, tier 2 utility.
If that's not what you're asking please clarify for me, I just want to understand.

Read my sig. I play a Conjuror, and have since day 1. But I completely realize what sort of utility a Necro brings.

Xalmat wrote:

Knew you played a Conj just wasn't sure if you had a Necro alt or something.

Ralniv@Venekor wrote:

No but you shouldnt want to be tier 2.5 dps and tier 4 utility
Hell you can roll a illy for tier 1 dps tier 1 utility or a wizzy with tier 1 dps and tier 2 utility........but you think things are very rosey colored with your glassees on.
No one is asking fo tier 1 of either ...dont know where you are reading that.
What you view as balance is viewed from majority of the populatuion as well as the developers of this game as being underpowered.Its already a very known fact but for some reason you think otherwise.Newsflash your utility is horrible......but this shouldnt be news because this issue has been know for almost 2 years lol.

Bigron@Unrest wrote:

No need to insult me, I'm just sharing my point of view.
I simply cannot comprehend why you think we are tier 4 utility. I don't know whether you play a Necro or a Conj but they both have decent utility. Not where it should be, but certainly not "horrible".
And yes, Enchanters are overpowered, that wasn't the issue I was discussing though.
When did the devs state that we are underpowered? What I understood was that they are fine with our DPS, but not quite happy with our utility, which is pretty much what I was saying.

Xalmat wrote:

I agree with you. But then, what's left? I would like to hear your suggestion/opinion on how the situation could be improved because I LOVE to play my nec.

There is a place for everyone in the game. I love my conjuror, you couldn't pay me enough to stop playing him all together. I never have problems parsing on the raids, and I have never been asked to sit out of a raid for a higher dps class. If I am one of the few then fine, so be it. I don't consider myself a "great" player, hell look at my eq2players profile, I am in mostly T2 shard and some raid gear. I am RARELY at the top of the parse, but then that is how it should be, but I am usually in the top 5 always in the top 10 even if I died and had to be rezzed. And yes we are raiding T8 TSO content.

I agree that there are places we could use a little love, but then I can remember the days of soloing yellow ^^^ heroics with adept 3 pet and stance in DoF, that is over powered.

I truely think SOE is leaving the summoners as they are because the class is what they intended them to be. We can do decent DPS, we have excellent solo and group functionality, and we are challenging to play really well.

If you want more then that, most raiding guilds are looking for Bards, Shammies, and Wizzys role one.

Ralniv@Venekor wrote:

Where did i insult you?
Compared to most every other class in game .....your utility is horrible.
We are tier 4 utility because none of our utility is needed for the success of a raid.We are tier 4 utility because there are people that can do it much better that are already in the raid.We are tier 4 utility because if your utility suddenly was taken out of the game.....no one would notice
Dirges can rez and with 2-3 generally in the raid no reason at all for necro to rez raid can do with out.
Power is not a issue at all when have a proper set up in raid and with the multitude of items as well as other mages can power feed also.
It is better for a templar to pull with temp pet or to pull with a shamen dog.
Spot healing? dirges/pallys/priests are better.....and its a priests job.You shoulda said cureing because there is a actuall use ,but with shorter recasts/cast thats also a priests job.Also dont forget every mage can cure.
Feign death? Ok you can do that........but so can everyone in the game if they wanted and are trumped by monk that can FD the whole group and a SK that can fd them selfs other people .
Infinet power is not utility.Spliting aggro with pet is not utility.
......................................................................................................................................
Wizards have good utility giveing good dps increases to the mages in their group.They are also top dps.
Monks have better utility with cast haste for the raid, and can fd the group.
SK have better utility with premium group enhanceing buffs,Raid enhanceing + base damage buff,fd someone that has ripped aggro and they can do close to tier 2 dps.
Swashys,Brigands,Illys,Corcers all have better utility and do same or more dps.
Dirge,troubadours trump anyone elses utility.


Necro/conjs are black holes atm sorry.

Alienor wrote:

You can see some of my thoughts here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=452219

I still don't understand how summoners can come on these boards and say we have fine DPS or fine Utility.
When the enchanter archtype can parse over 20k regularly as can the sorcer archtypes but only a handful of top end geared summoners are able to do so, think there might be a problem ( its got to be somewhere either in the class or the mechanics of the game) . I have seen bards (both classes) that can parse 12 - 14 k while still providing all their "utility" to their groups and raid.
Utility, for the summoners is a complete joke; everything we do can be done better by someone else, or is trivialized by items or tinkering.
We are nto asking for tier 1 dps and tier 1 utility illy's have that currently, what we want is a class that has some functionality for groups and raiding. Saying that summoners are balenced while everyone else is overpowered is just a perception issue when in reality you are just very underpowered and everyone else is balenced.......

Compas
80 Necro
Unrest

Bigron, sorry, but if your DPS is really that horrible then you need to learn how to play your toon a little better.
I agree with Blastor pretty much word for word.
As far as bashing our utility so much, Bigron; yes, other classes can do most of it better, but that doesn't mean it counts for nothing as you stated. I can spot heal better than a dirge btw, and it doesn't stifle me to do so. My raiding alliance appreciates my utility.
As far as Enchanters go, once again, I agree that they are overpowered. That doesn't make us underpowered. I didn't say that every class was overpowered and we are balanced. The only classes I think are overpowered ATM are Enchanters and Crusaders. So using Enchanters in your argument doesn't make a valid point at all. And Wizards usually don't beat me in DPS unless they're geared way better than me or get a lucky double BoI or Fission on a large group of mobs.
Swashies and Brigs rarely outparse me.

In reply to Compas; I'll say this again. As far as Enchanters go, once again, I agree that they are overpowered. That doesn't make us underpowered. I didn't say that every class was overpowered and we are balanced. The only classes I think are overpowered ATM are Enchanters and Crusaders.
And I don't see how Summoners can keep coming on these boards and complaining about how badly we suck. We could use a little love in the utility department, that's really about all we need right now. Something unique that only Summoners bring.

Ralniv@Venekor wrote:

just lol......you got no idea.

Charayne@Kithicor wrote:

hmm?

Ralniv@Venekor wrote:

Lmao......
I wont respond to most of everything else because well ......................im kinda speechless atm.

Ralniv@Venekor wrote:

Yep no idea................................i should go learn how to play my class better

Bigron@Unrest wrote:

omg lol ron needs to learn to play better???
hahahahaha that made me laugh
<3 to bigron