Lowered XP for support players

Grumble69 wrote:

There are way more than that one combat art available for the two classes. And it seems like too many of you are too focused on the PL aspect of this. Forget approaching this from a PL standpoint. It's dead, Jim. Approach it from the aspect of new players and those who are actually grouping and you'll see nothing but positive. Even for powerleveling it only requires minor changes to how it's done. Seriously, it does. I've played virtually every class in the game (except beastlord which I despise with a passion).
Even with the changes there are NO CHANGES when it comes to XP for you if you are being powerleveled. Period. Crying over the lack of extra XP for NOT CONTRIBUTING when in a group won't get sympathy from me. Sorry, it won't.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=523293

One can hope

Lateana@The Bazaar wrote:

It's not lowered xp for support players, its no XP for afk chars who are being boxed (power leveled) through the content....as it should be....

Any level appropriate group will not one shot using a tanks AE attack any mob unless it's a triple down arrow mob. I think some people have forgotten what it's like to group without an mentored 92. For level appropriate groups, everyone should be able to get on the hate list.

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Yeah, and those other CAs are single targets. We don't have to be talking about PL'n. We can be talking about any ol' dungeon crawl. And you don't have to be pulling whole rooms either. Let's say there are 3 mobs on a pull, the brig dispatches 1, the SK and warlock hit the other 3. Are you saying that it's good game mechanics that the brig gets full credit on one kill but only partial on the other 2? That's just not right in my book.

Lateana@The Bazaar wrote:

I can most definately assure you healers are on the hate list. Pretty much anyone actively doing anything is going to be on the mobs' hate list.
Heck, as a mystic it is my experience that I have to do almost nothing to have mobs come charging me or my pet.
All it looks like the change is going to do is make xp faster for those who actually do something in a group rather than just standing around out of aggro range doing diddly squat.

I'm not focused on PLing or any other style. I'm certainly not complaining about the added XP or looking for sympathy from anybody. Getting rid of the group xp penalty is long overdue in my opinion.
This change does nothing to effect my play style at all. I PL for fast XP, and don't see anything in the details of this change that will deter me from doing so. I have an army of alts that I sometimes multi-box (GASP!! OH NOES!! He's a botter!!). Again, nothing in this change that will deter me me from that. I group for fun with friends, never ever PUG, and nothing in this change is going make a difference. If anything, I'm LESS likely to invite someone to my PLing duo while wiping a zone, just so I don't have to listen to them whine about not getting their XP bonus on that last pull.
I'm concerned about adding a combat mechanic (which was tried before and failed) that doesn't seem to address any real issue. It just complicates the combat mechanics. They added three combat checks (mentored, hate list, green mob) just to determine whether to apply the encounter bonus or not. Maybe there's a different issue that SOE thinks this mechanic addresses, but certainly none of player expressed issues I've seen posted. I PL'd, boxed and avoided PUG's before the change, and apparently will continue to do so after the change.
Personally, I don't want my group deciding which buff/heal/ability to cast based on whether they get xp for it. I don't want an over aggressive scout aggroing everything in the room just to be sure he gets on the list before the necro nukes. I don't want the cleric putting up his reactives on a body pull just so he can get a heal in before my AOEs wipe the encounter. I want my group to focus on good group mechanics and let the xp flow evenly, fairly and naturally.
I'm not sure exactly which "reactive buffs" you're referring to, but I did a little test of my own. I took my dirge and coercer out with my SK to kill some heroic mobs. They had their normal maintained buffs up on the tank. The tank spanked the mobs a few times on autoattack until I saw procs registering in ACT, then FD'd. Not once did the mobs turn on the coercer or dirge on the FD. They didn't register anything in ACT, no damage, no hate gain. The only time I was able to get the mob's attention was to actually cast something on the mob.
I'm sure there are buffs on some classes that reactively and passively generate hate, but none that I could find on those two utility toons. I don't think it's going to be as simply for some classes/players as you're implying. Some folks are going to have to change the way they play their toon...and not for the group's benefit...for XP.
We're leveling up a 6-man group without mentoring right now. Mobs die FAST in level appropriate zones. Blue and White mobs are absolutely one-shotable. Yellow mobs don't have to be one-shot for this to be an issue. A critical bow shot with multi-attack followed by a critical necro nuke and a handful of procs...the encounter is mush before they get close enough to the tank to hit him. Where's the XP for my healers?
If the xp difference was minor between those on the list and those not on the list, this would mostly be a non issue. But the difference is large enough to matter whether people get the bonuses or not.

A buff that's always on should not automatically put you on the hate list. But if you cast any beneficial spell on the tank when the tank has aggro you will go on the hate list, just like if you nuked or melee attacked. Some buffs will put you on the hate list, like the warden spores spell. Many a time when I was boxing my zerker and warden would I start running round a zone to collect mobs only for half of them to peel off my zerker and run straight at the warden, splatting him. I don't know if utility classes have reactive buffs but if they don't, a quick power transfer or similar while the tank is running back to the group would do the job, if they're not going to contribute any dps, which I think is wrong but hey.

Grumble69 wrote:

Please enlighten us as to what dungeons at the high level or even the low level where a level appropriate group would be able to one shot ^^^ heroics. Won't happen. The ONLY situation that happens is when you have a PL occurring. This change is NOT going to affect that situation either as the GM already explained.

Who said anything about high level? I said we're leveling up a 6-man group. Currently mid levels. No mentoring. One shots definitely happen so save your exaggerations about it being impossible. Probably not in a PUG, but happens in my guild group.
I was originally responding to the comment that no level appropriate group can one-shot any mob unless it's a triple down arrow. Re-reading that post it actually stated that a tank AOE attack can't one-shot a mob. That admittedly isn't very common, but I have one shotted no arrow grouped mobs on my SK. Level appropriate, not mentoring. Happens.
Triple up heroics die on the pull all the time before they reach the tank. It doesn't take a one-shot. A single round from a few of the quick hitters can kill a mob before the healers, utilities or slow casters get on the list. Level appropriate. Not mentored. I'm not talking about current upper tier zones...I'm talking about leveling up toons through older content where people are xp grinding and wanting to find groups.
As far as the buff spells I tested, other than the maintained procs, I also tried my dirge's short-term damage proc, the coercer hate gain/reducers and a power transfers. The mobs ignored the dirge and coercer. When I get some more time, I'll test a few of my other alts. So far, I've been a little surprised by some abilities that I just assumed would have got me on list, but didn't.
Are you seriously trying to argue that some classes/players aren't going to change their tactics on a pull to ensure they're on the list? You really think it's a good thing that they're thinking about generating hate before they make sure the encounter(s) are controlled or their group beneficial buffs are up? Is it somehow a good thing that some classes are ensured of getting the xp bonus on every single pull by just doing their jobs (tank, dps) while other classes might miss out if their doing something beneficial to group but don't happen to make the list? Fine, you group with those toons after they have 95 levels of me-first habits drilled into them. I have no intention to.
The only people that seem to be pleased with the hate-list checks are those who seem to me more interested in how other people are playing the game than playing themselves and have a good time. Why does anybody give a ratonga's toenail if somebody else drags along their 10th alt to grind them through content they've lived through 9 times already and gets xp for it? This somehow gives those people a warm fuzzy feeling that SOE is finally doing something about the powerlevelers and (gasp) multiboxers. They'll finally be forced to group with me! Yay! AAA+++ SOE! Enjoy the warm fuzzy while you can, but as a powerleveler and boxer myself, it doesn't change a thing for me.

Regolas wrote:

Thanks, Regolas. I'm seriously not trying trying to pick a fight. Just curious. I responded to this in my previous post, but it kind of gets lost in the one-shotting bs.
I did try a few temporary buffs after the pull that I expected to generate some hate. I was surprised when they didn't. The mobs ignored the other toons after I FD'd the SK. Maybe FD'ing isn't an accurate way to determine whether I made the list. Maybe the power tranfers didn't generate hate because the tank was just autoattacking...hadn't used up any power to refill. Just casting the spell on the tank didn't seem to do anything.
I didn't have a lot of time, so this was obviously not a very thorough test. I got curious after reading about the changes and dragged a couple utility toons out to a dungeon to try a couple things.
I have a bunch of toons across pretty much all tiers. The ones I play frequently, I've learned which abilities generate enough hate that I need to careful with them. I've never had to pay attention to which abilities generate any hate.
I hate to adopt the attitude that if your not dps'ing you're not contributing. I'm leveling two friends slowly through the older content and they're learning their first toons. I don't like teaching to nuke on the pull. I've been trying to help them learn the value of buffs, letting the tank manage the pull, etc. This mechanic just seemes to re-inforce the 1-2-3-NukeEm mentality that drove me away from pickup groups.

Fair enough Domyr

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The EXP Changes and You.