Live Update #7 for Enchanter DPS improvements

There are certainly some illusionists who are happy with our current DPS, due to our buffs and crowd control abilities. I strongly suspect that at least one of the following facts is true about all these posters:

1) They do not parse damage, and therefore don't realize just how little DPS they do relative to virtually everyone else
2) They are not familiar with the level 40+ buffs that other classes have. Dust Storm alone blows everything we cast completely away
3) They believe SOE will eventually put in more content that requires crowd control
4) They are under level 40, still in that phase before the scaling problems of our spells become clear
5) They're not concerned about class balance, because they always get a guild group anyway

If there is anyone out there satisfied with the current state of illusionist DPS who does NOT meet at least one of those criteria, I'd be quite surprised.

/signs up for DPS trade-in for working root....

I added the following to the original post.
LU #7 is on test now -- only one Illusionist specific item was mentioned

• Alacrity should now improve as it upgraded.

I'm assuming they're referring to all of our haste spells, and i'm also assuming that if we're getting slightly more DPS in another direct form (besides haste) it hasn't been mentioned.
a few other things were mentioned that will affect us all...namely the combat changes - The only other thing i'll bother adding here is they're also implementing much more efficient pet controls, which will greatly help illusionist's grouping w/ summoner's. So hopefully we won't have "as many" problems grouping w/ lazy summoner's now. Though i must say that i've had relatively few problems w/ summoner's who are really on their game and when communication is at a prime between us. Hopefully this will help when grouping w/ summoner's who do not fit into that category.

Well, guess what, we got the short end of the stick, not even a MENTION that we weren't going to get looked at for this patch. Upsetting, but oh well. Thanks a lot SOE, throw us a fricking bone before you skip us over after you said it was going to happen.

"
1) They do not parse damage, and therefore don't realize just how little DPS they do relative to virtually everyone else - I do parse my damage i do 80-100 DPS on any single target mob. And anything with more than two targets is upwards of 140 DPS. With highs in the 250-275 range on crap like the trash when you first zone into Firemyst gully epic instance. Compare to the just under 400 DPS a Berzerker can put out on that same encounter. or the close to 300 DPS a bruiser can do on the Archlich himself.Even so most encoutners have me doing well over half what classes like assassins do, and thats fine to me. And when we do stuff like the zek instance I can outdamage a good 50-60% of our melees present. more or less depending on which wave it is and if i need to rebuff.
2) They are not familiar with the level 40+ buffs that other classes have. Dust Storm alone blows everything we cast completely away - And defense buffs ae being nerfed/capped soon too. 60 power a tick ( master 1 insight) is really quite useful. Maybe its not as useful as anything like heals or ac buffs, but compared to mages little even holds a candle.
3) They believe SOE will eventually put in more content that requires crowd control - I hope not. Nothing reduces my DPS quite lik having to do CC.
4) They are under level 40, still in that phase before the scaling problems of our spells become clear - I disagree. If anything I think the places that illusionists most need the help is pre-45 or so. Lack of a solid quick nuke, AE nuke doesn't grow well at all. Intesity now only single target. Pet is weaker at thos leevels ( mostly due to the classes you group withs weaker buffs but whatever.
5) They're not concerned about class balance, because they always get a guild group anyway - I'm 50, so I don't xp at all, and I'm pretty much assured of a spot on raids. On the other hand if the raid was full the first people to be booted after like healers about 6-7, would be the scouts, and other supposed "DPS classes which fail at their function fo DPS compared to other classes. I on the other hand not only to respectable DPS I provide a valuabkle raid wide utility function. I'm glad necros and wizards can feed/give mana stones to select people, but they'll never feed a scout, only the warrior whose been power drained by the mob, or the priest busy healing. I'm glad wardens can buff defense, and heal like 700+ hp a tick, and templars have uber reactives, and Mystics have a direct heal for 1100-ish, but without someone like me on the raid, they'd be oop long before the fight even got really underway. And it shows when I die how quickly their power drops.
"

At any rate. Yes I'm satisifed with my current state of DPS, and no I'm not ignorant, nor ignoring the issues, nor too low to have first hand experience. At best the worst you can call me on, is that the fact I am satisfied is because I'm am too far ahead of the curve of the average Illusionist. And I admit that. I say the upper middle levels ( were I was doing like 30 for what seemed like 20 levels straight) are a possible area to look at improving illusionist DPS. I also consider that the fact one of the main reasons I'm content with my DPS stems from having Insight, wither hope, and lobotomize master 1s, as well as the fact I'm a bit more experienced now so I know how to better bring up the old DPS numbers when i want. With respect to that the very best I could realisitically invision for Illusionists would be somehting that would take an Illusionist with adept 3s up to nearly or roughly the same tier or calibur of damage I am dealing now with master 1 dots ( that'd be somehting in the neighborhood of a 15-30% increase to DoT and nuke dmg but little change to our Aoes). But hey I don't make any decisions for SoE and this is just my attempt at trying to be reasonable and balanced when considering it.

I also wouldn't mind an additional detaunt, and some damage on an alternative resist.

Also if these sweeping combat changes come with a nerf to power regen or even maks the fights short enough that power regen becomes optional, then all bets are off, and the above will no longer apply at all.

What parsing program are you using?
Just asking cause the other night we did compare results of 2 different programs and sometimes they would show a difference in dps up to 100%. Made me lose trust in parse numbers a bit.

Well with Adept 3 for all offensive spells but secondary nuke (Master 1) coercer in pure DPS mode (only nukes, HO, debuff) can score mark 90DPS sometime if target weak to mental damage around 100DPS (Showstat). According to Vurin Illusionist apperently with similar spell set scroing 140DPS ... both suck donkey ball thou
Interestingly enouth if I have AE encounter my DPS drop down to 50DPS top no matter what I use
For comparassion - SK in pure TANK mode = score 132-160DPS with same programm
Message Edited by Tanatus on 04-14-2005 06:04 PM

Tanatus... No I said on a single target i get 80-100 DPS. And if there's two targets ( i.e. I dot more than one target) It goes up, and if there's more than 2 then I can ae and it goes up some more.

As for it sucking maybe I just have lower ( I would say realisitc) expectations for the DPS of the class. Its not proof of anything, but when other classes see my damage and compare it to their own for the same encoutner, most are impressed or satisified ( i.e. I meet their expectations for useful DPS untop fo my buffs), and others concerned about how close it is to their own.

Anyway I've used multiple parsers, but when I compare. I compare values from the same source.

As i'm aware there are 2 major parsing programs available....Combatstats, and Statylyzer. I personally use Statalyzer and love it, but i've heard very good things about Combatstats.

Anyways, the point of this post is that i had an opportunity to be grouped w/ a necro who was using combatstats one night and was displaying my DPS....some of the DPS numbers seemed screwy to me, so i opened up Statylyzer and began parsing right along w/ him....we both worked together and found that combatstats did not add illusionist's constructs to the illusionist DPS, while statylyzer did not either - but i am able to access my constructs DPS through statylyzer and add it to mine.

(Note: when adding a constructs DPS you have to be careful about how you do it --- as statylyzer i believe would figure the DPS the construct would do while it's active. So if the fight lasts longer than the construct is alive the DPS number given the construct is somewhat skewed. For a perfect DPS of the construct i have to parse a fight in which the construct lasts at least as long as the encounter's alive)

Combatstats i'm sure has the ability to get our constructs DPS, but the necro that night wasn't accessing it - hence the only time the two parsers would display different results if i had cast my construct - which would give me a much lower DPS on combatstats but via Statylyzer i had a 30 DPS higher number. If the construct was not used, both parsers would display the exact same result.

I like Statalyzer. I've never been able to reliably get it to handle construct damage (I'm not stating that it cannot do so, but just that I have not expended the effort to make it work properly). I just assume that the construct is adding about 30 DPS for the time it is active. That might be a bit low -- but the little bugger does get resisted a fair bit.

No offence ppl - since we have consencus that both classes gimped DPS wise but coercer meant to be "offensive" enchanter..
Anyway its not my point. We have consensus that both top-end (spell wise) Illusionist and Coercer at lvl 50 on single target score maximum 100DPS. We also know that fighters in tank mode score around 145DPS (in DPS mode they can push closer to 200). We know that warlocks/wizards sustein no swat around 400-450DPS w/o much hasle and can do spike DPS upward 750 (AE). Also well I know fact that coercer at low 30 sustein around 75%DPS of warlock (which I think right proportion) (expirience from first hand since I have leveling like mad my lovely twink warlock)
Anyhow I have been analizing problem and came to rather wierd conclusion what is the main problem. Its turns to be not fact that our tier 2 class spells (lvl37-50) so to speak not really upgrade of our tier 1 spells (lvl 20-37) but fact that they share same timer... If Tier 1 primary nuke and Tier 2 primary nuke for coercer would sit on different timer (and so it goes for secondary nuke but in lesser degree) I'd instantly gain around +75% more DPS. I am almost sure it will be a case for Illusionist as well. Putting spells on separate timer and giving a little boost (+30-50%) for tier 2 (37-50) offensive spells would naturally place enchanters in a good shape DPS wise

Tan,
The problem is different for illusionists. At 50, we do have three separate nuke lines on different timers. We can cast Anuerysm, Scorching Beam and Phantasmal Charge. Our problem is that all three of them do pathetic damage. The best of them, Scorching Beam, tops out at 300-something damage, on a 12 second timer. Anuerysm is also on a 12-second timer. Phantasmal Charge is on a 2-second timer, but that's a level 20-something spell (our last, and only fast-casting nuke).
The 'problem' for all enchanters is simply our spot on the priority list. I cannot imagine it's more than two coder-days to fix all enchanters. For illusionists, all they would have to do would be the following:
- Increase the damage on our 40+ DoT spells 30 - 50% (they should boost our DoT's, not nukes, as you cannot use DoT spells with running mezz to exploit)
- Fix Scorching Beam, so the DoT effect works (it has been broken since beta)
- Change the timers on our Construct line so they start when the spell is cast, not when the spell expires (this would make constructs available for every other encounter, not every third or fourth).
We'd be finished. I lack sufficient familiarity with Coercer spells to describe a fast fix for that class, but I can't imagine it would be very difficult.
The enchanter 'problem' is not one of complexity, but priority. SOE simply hasn't gotten to us yet. I have faith they will, someday -- but I wish they would get on the stick. Getting outdamaged by priest classes has gotten *really* old.

Also, I have to add, the 'consensus' you describe that 'coercers are the offensive enchanter' appears to be in your own mind, or perhaps shared with some other coercers. It's not in the game documentation. I think coercers' and illusionists' spell lines show they have different styles of offensive weapons, which vary in effectiveness for different encounters:
- Coercers have better nukes, making them more offensive vs single targets
- Illusionists have some fairly nice AoE's, making them a good bit better against groups
- Coercers have Beguile, which can produce a large damage spike for certain encounters (a pair of ^'s, etc)
- Illusionists have Constructs, which do much less damage than Beguile, but which can be used against any encounter
I think Coercers will always have the ability to produce the largest situational DPS, true. When things line up well for a Beguile spell, you should do incredible damage while your pet's specials fire off. But there are situations where I believe Illusionists are meant to have better offense, as well.
Honestly, I think the *intended* differences between the subclasses are more akin to wizard v warlock than fury v warden. That's not a statement about the current balance -- none of this post is intended to be. It is, rather, an intepretation of what SOE's intent was, based on the spell lines we're given.
In any case, we can talk about coercer vs illusionist balance in detail, once coercers and illusionists can at least outdamage priests and tanks I'm confidant we will get there, but I won't hold my breath waiting.

Yes it was my toughts too - Illusionist better vs. group, Coercer better vs. Single tough target...
I see now what cause my misunderstanding ... illusionists have different attack set up compare to coercer.... For its it copy and paste of warlock and wizard attack really is.
Look all I do in pure DPS mode is land debuff (and so warlocks do same) then start rotate my heaviest nukes with HO while timer refresh I use my secondary nukes, refreshing debuffs, stifle/mana drain. Warlock do EXCATLY same thing - I have alt warlock lvl 32 already. Initiate combate with 2 debuffs then proceed with haviest nuke. whilte I wait on timer refresh with warlock I can land stun on mob (pretty much same what my coercer do)
Dots is separate issue... Best coercers dot at Adept 3 at lvl 50 do 109 damage per 4s and lasts 6 tics. Secondary dot at Adept 3 do random 88-108 damage per 4.8s and lasts 5 tic but! have massive Arcane/Magic Debuff attached to it (-1260). Major problem with either dot they slow as hell to cast, cost *$%#&! load power compare to nukes aka very power innefficient. Basically past lvl 45 once coercer get none damaging broadband resistance debuff (-1196 to all at Adept 1) we stop use dots all together just Nuke-HO. Toss here fact that best coercers nuke have 4.1 DPM (149 power for 649 damage) compare to best warlock nuke 40DPM (50 power for 2076 damage) and you get picture why we dont use dots

its the latter. But I don't have a problem with. Okay so the bruiser, and zerkers and monks otu damage me, but I hold my own and/or beat almost all the scouts, and all the crusaders.

At any rate, I sitll feel any damage improvement we get is just going to be wasted if its not accompanied by lower hate generation on breeze or the damage spell lines.

Vurin you cannt beat crusiders lol SK in tanking mode score 132-160DPS depend on Mob, SK in DPS mode score close to 200DPS

Vurin, if you're happy with being outdamaged by most tanks, then you have the bar set at a very different spot. I know we have some darn useful abilities. But tanks have one that is far more useful -- tanking! Tanking is more important than any utility we bring to the table. Tanks also have somewhat better defenses than we do It is unreasonable for them to *also* pack more offensive punch.
I'm not one of those nutbars who thinks we should be on a par with wizards, warlocks and predators. That's overreaching, to say the least. But tanks and priests shouldn't outdamage us. Tanking and healing are more important than CC and breeze, and all of them sport better armor and shields. We shouldn't have to find a complete collection of master spell to do 80% of their damage.

That particular quote was in reference to just the first 3 waves of the zek instance... Which imo has the most stringent DPS requriements of all the new encounters. In at leats this one encoutner where DPS matters a great deal, I was able to contribute more than just a ton of power to the raid. So much so that I out damaged more than a fair share of classes who only significant contribution ( at this event) was their own DPS.

At any rate there's not much to be gained by picking apart the fact that i feel I'm satisified. I feel that power regen is very powerful and as such am happy that under most circumstances I am at the bottom of the DPS totem pole ( at least among the non priest classes... I've never been out damage by a priest), but there exsists circumstances where I can hold my own DPS wise.

You disagree and thats fine. Doesn't bother me any at all that you want more DPS.

My thinking on chanter dps has started to change since I started looking at these forums.
I love my mezzes, stifles, stuns and power drains, and use them a lot. I'm happy with the state of these except on raids against epic mobs. I group mostly with guildies, and they appreciate what a chanter can bring to a group, even if I do zero dps. I do not feel like a frustrated wizard.
However, with the current game design, CC and mitigation don't seem to be essential most of the time. Even our buffs are not needed for most fights. Mages are supposedly a dps archetype. We have the weakest defense of any class in both health and mitigation. We have to bring something useful to our groups. Buffing the group with breeze and dying from the aggro it draws are not terribly much fun.
If CC and mitigation are needed for an encounter, my dps will be negligible anyway, I won't have time to nuke much, or not until the end anyway. If they are NOT needed (which is most of the time), I should have useful DPS for the encounter. Currently I do not, except maybe when using AEs on groups. A chanter who is on pure dps, should have somewhat lower dps than a wizard or mage, but still be higher than a priest or fighter. Since scouts should also outdamage fighters, then maybe enchanters should be on a par with scouts when in pure dps mode. Pure dps mode should not be possible when doing CC and mitigation however.
My feeling is the dps heirarchy should roughly be something like

1. Sorcerers, Summoners
2. Scouts, Enchanters
3. Fighters
4. Priests

However, if we are doing CC and mitigation, it would be more like

1. Sorcerers, Summoners
2. Scouts
3. Fighters
4. Priests, Enchanters