Let us just buy the faction ...

Lodrelhai wrote:

You know perfectly well that there is all the difference in the world. I am an armorer and I am a transmutter. And the difference between gaining a level as an armorer and getting 5 skillups as a transmutter (the equivalent of a crafting level) if you have the materials is, simply, huge. If you have the materials, which you transmute with a click, you stop the combine at the first stop and you get the skill-up or not. In 5 minutes, max (just want to be over generous here), you can have your 5 skill-ups. You dont get an armorer level in 5 minutes.
In transmutting, the limiting factor is not grinding time. Is the availability of the materials. Period. Proof? When EoF came out, servers were very busy for several hours with all the patching if you guys remember. We all wanted to play the expansion asap. I could at last log into the game 14 hours after launch... one of the 3 first messages I got in level chat was 350 transmutter looking for work. Yeah, I bet theres no difference at all.

Belaythien wrote:

I remind everyone that the recipes and other items such as epics are absolutely optional and NOT needed in any way shape or form for everyday game play.
And I do NOT except the excuse that you HAVE to HAVE them to be of value for your guild or on the market or for you "customers" (they just find someone else, so what?) blah blah blah..that is humbug and you are too full of yourself if you believe that even for one second. Everyone is replaceable by someone else period. You want them because others have them NOT because you NEED them. Moreover, if you want them that bad you will do the work...time sink or not it does not mater. If you really want them, you will do it period. If you don't want to put the effort in then don't, but do not expect everyone else to be sympathetic to your attempt for an easy button. I got the starter for my epic the second day it was released and still don't have it..mainly because I really don't want it bad enough to sit there looking for a group to go into chardock for hours upon time.. If I would want it bad enough I probably would have it by now..this IS human nature and SOE knows that. There is nothing wrong with that. In todays world of entitlement and easy buttons it is a refreshing change that someone has to actually work for something and if it is only to sit there and mindlessly push buttons

J.C..

Poetelia wrote:

And the first lvl 80 tailor was there a few hours after RoK launched so whats your point.

Rqron wrote:

ok .. you dont NEED any spells/CAs above lvl 50 on your adventurer either .. lets see how well that works out for you.

Many people dont have to do ANY extra work for these recipes.. THAT is the problem. You can say all you want about how you had to work for the adventurer levels as well but the fact is you did that for adventuring not tradeskilling. You did next to no extra work for these rewards so why should you get an easy button because of it? This is the point most of you people who think everything is fine seem to miss.

"mindlessly push buttons" is what drives some people to BOT .. and we all hate bots right? Well, aside from those who use them.

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

What prevents you from adventuring and getting the benefit? Nothing, it is YOUR choice if you don't so don't try to punish the people who where smart enough to do so. Moreover, we do not talk about ordinary spells and gear here either..you get those by leveling your crafter to 80. We are talking extra stuff and fluff.

J.C.

Rqron wrote:

Smart enough to do so? Are you saying you are smart for adventuring to be a crafter? Think about that .. really ...

Even if that was true how would you have known to be this smart before these recipes were put in the game? Does this mean you are not getting any thing else out of being an adventurer?

Rqron wrote:

<sigh> Even people like you, bent on defending a dialectic position as if it was Deathfist Citadel, against even the most logical points, surely must concede that leveling from 70 to 80 in a craft is not the same than getting max level from 0.
And of course. Everyone has the option of being an adventurer. But thats not the point. The point of this whole thread and of all the threads about this subject is:
Is it fair for pure crafters the fact that they need to grind faction for countless hours when an adventurer get the faction as part of their normal leveling process, as if it was just an added bonus, and in a couple of afternoons maximum?
Must an adventurer have an advantage over a crafter in a faction that gives access to a crafting reward?
And, as a logical result, is the whole faction artifact well designed and functioning as intended?
Those are the questions. You can answer yes or nay to all of them. Sure the 80 armorer/15 guardian has the choice of leveling as a guardian to gain that faction and with the rules as they are now, thats her choice. Dont state the obvious. The point is, is it fair? The answer can well be affirmative, but the discussion deserves an argument better constructed than "they were smart enough to combine adventuring and crafting in the same toon".

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

the point is that you get a clear benefit from being both, a adventurer and crafter.

If you are a adventurer and also a crafter you get the advantage of making your own spells, ca's, poisons / whatever...

If you are a Crafter and also Adventurer you get the advantage of safer harvesting and less faction grinding...

point is:

for the ultimate benefit you have to be both.

Killerbee3000 wrote:

But for the supplying each other part they can be different characters and you still get the benefit of each. Can my lvl 80 adventurer supply my other lvl 80 crafters with faction? Nope.


The thing still comes down to that the current system is completely unfair. These recipes are "rewards" for crafters willing to put the effort in to obtain them yet they are all but given out to those characters that are also adventurers with almost no additional work (I say that because you end up grinding a little with bathezid). This incosnistancy does not make you feel like you accomplished anything as a crafter .. it makes every faction writ feel like a kick in the face. Increasing the reward for the writs (add gold, SP and another small faction increase) would go a long way to fixing the issue.

Poetelia wrote:

I look at this more as equivalent to trying to solo as, say, a templar vs a necromancer. Both can do it, but one's probably going to have a much easier time of it.

It actually took my Tinkerer longer to get to recipes with a T4 materials requirement than for him to get to T4 in his main crafting class, Provisioner. As Tinkerers and Transmuters level by the same means, I'd hazard a guess it'd be similar for a Transmuter, though I admit there's a strong likelihood that trend will reverse in higher levels. But yes, I do consider a Transmuter buying Treasured and higher stuff off the broker to level their skill equivalent to a primary crafting class buying all their materials. They may have an easier time doing the work than a primary tradeskill, but they still do the work.

Now back on the main conversation!

Poetelia wrote:

As I did level my Woodworker from 70-80 by grinding faction for these groups, I'd say the potential for it to be fair is there. After all, an adventurer can choose to level strictly through grinding without bothering to quest. I don't know why they would, but they can. So since grinding faction is an option crafters can use to level, it has the potential to be comparable. The current structure isn't for 2 main reasons, IMHO:

1) Crafting max faction was deliberately capped at 30k because "as crafters we don't need the adventurer rewards, and if we want those we can adventure for them." That is not an exact quote, but it was a statement I remember reading on either these boards or the beta boards for RoK. I'm not even positive it was an official statement, but the cap on faction for crafting shows a clear intent to treat the crafter differently from the adventurer.

2) Faction gain is, for the most part, much faster for adventurers than crafters. In leveling to 80 woodworker, by splitting my effort between all three factions, I did not have enough faction with Bathezid's Watch to start my epic quest, and am nowhere near enough faction with any group to get even my advanced woodworker books from them, much less the new recipes. In going from 70 to 73, my dirge maxed her faction with Teren's Grasp. One of the first Danak Shipyard faction quests gives 31.5k faction. I fully anticipate that by the time I am an 80 dirge I will have max or close to max faction with each of these groups, and probably a nice bit with a couple others as well. The intent is clearly that an adventurer who choses to level by faction quests should be rewarded with max, or close to max, faction for the groups with whom they work by the time they reach the level cap (except BW). Crafters, even those who opt to level solely by faction quest, are expected to put in significant additional time grinding if they wish to gain their rewards, even at the much lower faction cap.

My view is that either both sides should be equal, including ability to reach full Ally faction, similar variety of quests and definitely similar faction gain for their quests, or both sides should be split completely, so that a crafting reward requires crafting effort and an adventuring reward requires adventuring effort. In which case the variety of quests and the gain from them should still be comparable. Honestly, I'm fine with either solution. In the first case a hybrid, adventurer, and crafter would all be putting in a similar effort regardless of which route was taken. In the second it is at least perfectly clear that crafters and adventurers are viewed as different; that just because the military commander says you brought in an impressive number of enemy heads doesn't mean the craftmaster is going to trust you with his most treasured secret recipes, since for all he knows you'd completely botch them. Likewise, the fact that the craftmaster says you were a great help at getting the troops supplied doesn't mean the military commander is going to trust you to actually use some of the finest weapons and armor they have available, since he has no way of knowing if you're even a half-decent fighter.

I also think balancing the faction gain may require both some crafting quests with higher faction and adventure requests that have less. As has been pointed out several times, the main adventurer faction quests in BW only get a person to around 21k faction, requiring adventurers to grind either fishmen or that 500 faction quest repeatedly to gain full faction. I think that's the closest example of an even faction gain we have, and it really highlights how completely out of whack the faction gain with the other groups is.

Hope I made sense here.

Lodrelhai wrote:

Perfect sense. And in fact, I cant add anything to those points. Complete agreement on my part.
I still disagree on the transmutting thingie, I still think it's more a question of money pure and simple than effort and grinding, but I admit its a question of points of view.