Juggernaut, Our Class defining ability, REALLY needs looked at...

Juggernaut needs to be like Necromancer's Lich spell, something unique AND Class defining.

This is my Suggestion:
The Berserker no longer fears injury in battle, he has become an unstoppable force on the battlefield and no longer worries about getting hit, he instead focuses ONLY on destroying his enemys.

Decreases Avoidance to 0%, and then gives 50% of it back to us with In Combat Movement Speed/Strikethrough/Damage Reduction.
Example: Say, if we had 40% Avoidance before using the buff, it would give us 20% Damage Reduction, 20% In Combat Movement Speed, 20% Strikethrough.
Then have it inflict X% damage to self while not berserk. (if we had 40% Avoidance, it would be 4%.) Every 4 Seconds.
Then have it inflict X% damage to self while berserk. (if we had 40% Avoidance, it would be 2%.) Every 4 Seconds.


Over half of our abilitys require us getting hit, This would be a unique class buff, and it just screams: Juggernaught.
It would also make Adrenaline less worthless, and actually alot better.
But it would also improve the penalty for using it, since we would be taking damage during lost adrenaline, balancing it.

Since the berserker is mostly focused on crushing his enemys, he hits the target alot more, but that means the target can't miss, but we are a wall of plate. We Are Juggernauts!


Why Do This?
Lets look at the List of Abilitys that Require us being hit:
Weapon Counter - Damage to enemy when "hit"
Blood Rage - Healing when "hit"
Berserk Rage - Going berserk when "hit"
War Cry - Going berserk when "hit"
Aggressive Defense - Damage AND Hate to enemy when "hit"
Battle Frenzy - Healing when "hit"
Adrenaline - Regenerative Healing When "hit"
Wall of Hatred - Hate When Hit.
Gut Roar - Block an Attack When hit.
Perfect Counter - Reflect an Attack When Hit.
Avoidance actually hurts us more then helps us, if we don't get hit, we don't build up nearly enough hate, our abilitys usefulness is cut almost in half, and our ability's regenerative properties are also cut in half.


"Note: Make Enhance: Juggernaught adds 0.04 Auto-Attack Modifier per point spent to the spell instead of increasing Duration"
"Important Note, Temporary Buffs, And Item buffs that increase your parry and reposte will not be counted by the juggernaut buff, so you cannot just hit Dragoon's Reflexes and get 50% Damage Reduction, or hit Unshackable Grip and get an extra 10%, or use the old chest plate from The Djinn Master and get 50%, or all 3 and get 115% Damage Reduction, it will NOT be counted towards the buff."

A good way to get threads locked is to double post them like this, btw.

Posted in testing feedback/here

The problem with low avoidance is you get hit allot more. While yes many of our abilities require us to be hit for them to function unless they beef us up to the point of being OP with self heals or overal damage reduce your idea will kill zerks as a tanking class.

Get ACT on your comp put on some MC gear or some PQ gear no raid gear. Make sure you have your Tank AA spec on also and that all your group members are in the same gear as you. Now go run an instance for gear progression not some easy stuff one of the harder ones that can be done with the gear you have. ACT will show you how many times you avoided auto attacks. Now take the average of all the auto attacks you avoided and apply them to you as damage during the fights as if you had low or zero avoidance. You will find that you need 2 or 3 healers to run the zone cause 1 deff will not be able to keep you standing if every attack lands. Please learn the mechanics of the game before you ask for changes to our class as this type of change you are asking for would either make us OP ( if SoE gave us the survivability we would need to go with it ) or it would make us not able to tank cause we would be hit every time the mob swings and die allot faster than the healers can put health back into us.

Edit to add:
While I agree that many of our abilities need to be looked at and adjusted. You have some good ideas there in all honesty you need to remember that avoidance is there for a reason and it is a needed stat. Now if you were to say drop the avoidance to 10% when going Juggy and you get 40% Rip and 40% Parry for the duration that might be acceptable.

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

Thats the point, Your losing avoidance and gaining damage reduction.
Juggernaught, YOU NO LONGER AVOID ATTACKS, but you absorb them, its the same protection, it just benefits us more because we are actually GETTING hit, proccing all of our abilitys.

Nice edit to add after the fact..........

Thing is to make it work it would still make a Zerk OP if you are adding an aditional 50% damage reduce above what we have naturaly even if its only for a short time. Still a good idea though just might need the numbers adjusted so we dont end up FOTM.

I still think to fix all the class's even ours we need to go back to before AA and have things reworked including itemization then work in the AA's.

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

The Max Avoidance you can have is 75% (Without Temp Buffs, Which is Very hard to achieve or Impossible as a berserker, 50% Damage Reduction *IS* impossible.)
Berserkers don't have the same avoidance as other tanks get, without Temp buffs they can only get up to 55% Maybe.
A Buffed Raiding Berserker could probably get a Max of 28% Damage Reduction/In-Combat Movement Speed/Strikethrough.
In the Next Expansion you "May" beable to get more avoidance, but I'm not counting on that.

"I CAN SEE YOU Exploiting it and mentoring to level 5 and getting 75% avoidance, but I will probably see this spell having to be recast when you mentor/unmentor*.

Mods if I cross the line here I am sorry.

Fail you obviously know nothing about our class so please stop posting while your ideas are decent it is obvious you do not know anything about the mechanics of the game.

At 90 self buff not in raid gear I have 43.7% avoid DW in Def stance no temps. My damage reduc is at 60.5% self buff DW in Def stance no temps. This is a 90 zerk and no I dont have all masters yet and I have no raid gear pieces.

I would be willing to bet that a raid gear zerk with all masters will be close to 70% damage reduc and 60% avoid self buff.

I completely agree with you Kimber. 1 thing, i think the damage reduce you are referring to is from Mitigation and not the damage Reduction ability. Straight damage Reduction is over powering in large quantities. (Like Failathion is asking for)

Silzin wrote:

Yes, but at the cost of ALL your avoidance.

Thing is Fail what you are asking for is even more damage reduc on top of what we have at the cost of avoid for a short time or temp buff. If you get more damage reduc then you dont need avoid so we are not loosing anything with what you are asking for. So what we loose avoid and gain damage reduc. Its not a balance trade it would make us OP. If you want an OP class with a high damage reduc temp ability play a Pally or SK. Basicly you are asking for DA here if you want it roll a class that has it.

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

This isn't a temp ability, its until canceled, and its only half of how much avoidance you can get
a Juggernaut is someone who can take massive hits without faltering or dieing.
But he doesn't avoid attacks, he just absorbs and take everything.
Its a playstyle change and a new unique way of tanking.

So you want to take a Temp and make it a reg Buff that drops our avoidance to 0% but ups our Damage Reduce by the same amount of Avoidance we loose.

So on my 90 Zerk that is not in Raid Gear with 60.5% damage reduc and 43.7% avoid.
I would loose my 43.7% avoid and it would be added to my 60.5% damage reduc giving me a total of
104.2% Damage Reduc

Since you have changed your tune as to the amount and its now half the avoid it would work out to be 82.35% which is still way to much for a solo buffed toon with out temps.

/Sarc on You are correct that is not OP at all and should be a great change /Sarc off


/thread
Edit cause you went and changed stuff while I was typing

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

Don't forget! Its 82.35% While DWing in offensive, because zerkers don't use shields!!!

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

What the...
Where did you come up with this Math?
How did I get 208% Avoidance?
Did you read about Temp buffs Not working with the Spell?
The Max Damage Reduction you can possibly have this expansion would be 35%.
You obviously did not read the entire post... you only get HALF of the Avoidance you get without temporary Buffs.
"Important Note, Temporary Buffs, And Item buffs that increase your parry and reposte will not be counted by the juggernaut buff, so you cannot just hit Dragoon's Reflexes and get 50% Damage Reduction, or hit Unshackable Grip and get an extra 10%, or use the old chest plate from The Djinn Master and get 50%, or all 3 and get 115% Damage Reduction, it will NOT be counted towards the buff.

Receaving an attach 101.

For clarification I want to brack down a Mob attaching a tank for a sec, Just so we can all use the right terms.

Step 1 – Does it hit. There are a lot of checks in here that make this step complicated. I think the major parts of this check are as follows. Please note some of these are caped at 75% some parts are not and your over all avoidance will increase with them going up to or around 250% (For more into check the Avoidance FAQ)

1. Parry/Riposte
2. Block
3. Base

Step 2 – Assuming that the mob hits you the next step is Mitigation. The Damage is first reduced by your Crit Mit, then by your Mitigation. Assuming the hit did not crit then your Mitigation would reduce the hit from ~50-75%
Step 3 – Would be the Damage Reduction that is being talked about. Also things like Stoneskin’s would be here? I think at least.
If you look at an Avoidance Report in ACT on a normal raid tank from a normal raid mob, the Tank isn’t taking that much % of the mobs hits. If he were taking more then 20-40 (I think) then the healers would never be able to keep up.

*Next thing*

The only way (I can see) something as absurd as this could be introduced and balanced (as a buff that can be turned on/off) is probably as follows.

1. The pantalets would have to be much more. Like 5-10% Health taken ever sec, not 4% every 4 sec’s.
2. Absolutely all buffs from others that are designed to avoid attacks for you don’t work. Like Brawler avoid buff, Dirge stoneskin’s, your Wall of Force… ext.
3. IF Temp abilities had any effect on you and added to your Damage Reduction or helped you just not get hit. Then balance would be impossible to achieve.

These together would have to change the entire way a raid supports the Tank that it would NEVER happen is EQ2.

Failathion@Nagafen wrote:

@ Fail
Thats funny telling me to read when you do not read yourself. That Damage Reduce that I have on my 90 Zerk is just standing there not in combat no temp buffs going same with the Avoidance number. Read my post and you will see where the numbers come from. Changing this one ability to do what you are asking would create even more balance issues than we already have.
While your idea here has some merit it would require a complete and total revamp of everything to put things into balance. Yes I know how you feel about balance and that the game is not ment to be balanced, but it is even though you dont like it.

Edit to add
Failathion@Nagafen wrote:

Please take your own advice I even bolded and highlighted the portions you need to pay particular attention to.
@Silzen
Yup that is pretty much how it supposed to work however he is talking about making Juggy a reg buff so it would go straight into our mitigation numbers not like a stone skin or something that would proc.

Silzin wrote:

You are correct in most aspects, I believe stoneskins are applied before Mit though, thats why hits show so high in the 50-300k area. As for avoidance, in full defensive on HM mobs, i usually have around 60-70% avoidance depending on the mob. But even getting hit 30-40% of the time is rough. I dont see any tank standing with 0% avoidance even with damage reduction.

Hey Rhita what are your numbers self buff in raid gear? What tier raid gear also? Just wondering is all I know that Guards get more than Zerks but we are not all that far behind in the same gear althought that 5% or so differance is what really makes the diff.

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

All tanks get a 7-8% Avoidance buff, EXCEPT berserkers.