I've been looking more closely at the higher-level spells we get and, well, I was shocked to see that my next mez was at level 40! (I'm not counting the nukes that have a chance to mez since that's not going to work for CC for obvious reasons.) So at higher levels, is our job going to be that of CC or that of a buffer/debuffer with CC in certain situations? As we all found out pre-Entrance, CC with 1 mez with an 8s recast timer really isn't an effective way to play CC.
I think one of the key things that many other illusionists (and myself!) forget is that there's more to CC than just mez. Stifles, Stuns and Roots all need to be added into the mix. With these, you can effectively lock down a group of 4 in under 10 seconds. Root one non-caster, stifle another, mez an add, stun the one the tank is fighting, and then perhaps toss in another mez on the one you stifled (as stifles wear off quickly sometimes). So, yes. your next mez is WAY down there, but you get a lot of really cool tools before then. And also we do more than just CC! Crowd control in this game seems 'nice, but not required.' I've seen many groups do just fine without an enchanter at all. We add a lot to our groups, even if they're AoE group. We have AoE DDs, stuns, stifles, etc, in addition to some wonderful buffs. Yahoo!
Well, I have a few problems with the other forms of CC, though. Stifles, you're right, are really awesome. This can be an effective CC against healers and casters. Stuns have their purposes but are hardly CC. I think stuns most effeciently used when the main tank is low on HPs and the healer needs help keeping the tank alive or when a non-tank gets early agro then I stun it so the tank can get agro without the healer having to heal much. As for roots, they are very difficult to be able to use as they were intended simply because of how long it takes to cast them. In dungeons, they are practically impossible to use. Out in the open fields where you have a lot of room to move around (scarecrows are a great example), then roots are useful. As for our DDs, Dots, and any other forms of damage, they are pretty trivial compared to any DPS class (although every little bit does help). As for our debuffs and power drains, again, every little bit helps. But the current state of these abilities (mid-20's) leaves a whole lot to be desired. Lastly, our buffs: power regen and haste. I'm not going down the road of how annoying and frustrating these are - you can read that everywhere else. But they are significant benefits. Currently (mid-20's), our main purpose is CC and buffs. CC seems to be the most important of those roles. However, once Fascinate starts becoming obsolete (and if you're not aware, it becomes totally obsolete as in it won't even let you attempt to cast it on mobs), then you're back to the problem we were in throughout all of the teens - 1 mez spell with an 8-second recast timer. Oh, and we have our AE mez but that is hardly useful for regular usage. So at higher levels, are our CC options mostly limited to a single single-target mez spell with a long (8-second) recast timer and stifles? Or is there something I'm missing?
I find our mez abilities to be balanced just fine and plenty powerful enough. I do not like the idea of having NO mez, which you will face in your thirties as entrance is too low to be used on the mobs you are fighting. But the 8 second recast time has never bothered me. I can lock down 4 mobs without much of a problem, using my stuns as a time buffer between recasts.
I too have been happy with our class. I have had moments where I question how much we bring to a group, but the fact that every group I see forming tries to get one into their group, we must still be very useful. Don't underestimate our AE DD. Our level 28 AE DD does close to the same as sorcerers do.
I'm only a level 20 Illusionist (level 64 enchanter in EQ1 before having enough), but I too am becoming disappointed with this class. In my opinion, the dev team put way too much effort into "fixing the problems" of how EQ1 worked, and in the process made enchanters marginally useful, and playing a marginally useful class isn't very fun. In EQ1 I felt powerful as an enchanter, in EQ2 I feel like just another random class. For example, I could do great things soloing in EQ1 because of my crowd control spells. In EQ2 mez is only slightly useful for soloing because of artificial game mechanics like you can't get credit for an encounter unless you kill all the monsters in the encounter. So, I can't mez one, kill the other and run away, I have to kill both to get any credit at all. In EQ1 I could either mez and hold one forever, or I could charm one and have them kill each other. That was power, that was fun. Also, I really hate not being able to buff people that aren't in my group. This was one of the best ways for support classes like enchanters to make friends, which helps break the ice and establish a rapport with other players. I always gave clarity for free to anybody who asked, here I'm unable to assist anybody who isn't specifically in my group. In a long play session I might hear twenty "group seeking healer", ten "group seeking tank" and maybe five "group seeking other", but on my server I can't recall ever hearing "group seeking enchanter", not even once. To me that is a huge red flag about the desirability of this class.
""As for roots, they are very difficult to be able to use as they were intended simply because of how long it takes to cast them. In dungeons, they are practically impossible to use. Out in the open fields where you have a lot of room to move around (scarecrows are a great example), then roots are useful."" i m only lvl 20 illusionist, so still new to this, but isnt 'binding light', the 2nd root we get, a 1 sec cast? which i find pretty fast so why you saying root takes too long to cast? they supposed to be instant or am i missing someting? Message Edited by PinkElephant on 12-06-2004 04:09 AM
Generally speaking, indoors, which is are strong suit, you don't usually have enough time to target and root a mob between the time it's pulled and hitting your group. I also rarely mez anything larger than a 3 mob pull, if larger it's almost always AE'ed, so again, root seems pointless for the groups I've been in. I have used it when I see an add about to come to the group and I know that he has a link mob with him. Then I'll root, mez the other, than mez the rooted one. Binding light unfortunately has a short duration compared to arcane bindings and at level 32, arcane bindings no longer works, and binding light rarely works due to level of mobs we fight. If you can make it work, go for it, it just doesn't seem to work for me often. The uses are few and far between in my experience.
batarang quote "in EQ2 I feel like just another random class." Its the whole point. We r all the same, we r all equal, its the skill that makes us different. Y would they have one class that was much better..... They wouldn't, get over it. Try using skill and not a class to get grps/friends And btw its not EQ1.
your complaints are about game mechanics and do not relate to our class. you dont like the encounter system, or the group forced buffing, but that has nothing to do with illusionists specifically. i guess your next complaint about our class is shared exp debt? tanks and healers are essential, crowd control in 50% of the game is not essential. this is good design imho. groups should not be held up because they cant find an illusionist or coercer. THere are MANY different classes that can fill the tank or healer role, so its ok that those roles are so essential. besides, if you want to be useful, LFG in places that require CC. You cannot expect groups to love you to death in THundering STeppes or Antonica. Go to the bottom of Varsoons or Stormhold and you will have your butt kissed so much it'll make your head big (pun intended). Assuming you are good at your class, of course. People tell me good enchanters are hard to find. Message Edited by Echo3111 on 12-06-2004 06:11 PM
Don't use stifle against casters/healers only. The melee mobs do pretty crazy damage with skills too. Also, I use stun(read:daunting gaze, stupefy is more an "OH ****!" stun) more as an extra stifle to close the gap between stifles than an actual stun.
The point of this thread seems to have been missed. The problem is not long recast time on mez, not the fact that we have several CC abilities, not the usefulness of stifles...it is the point that we have NO mez AT ALL for many levels in the 30s. NO MEZZES AT ALL. Mezzes ARE our class, or at least the most important aspect of it. How can SoE take away mezzes from us while still allowing a wizard to nuke, a warrior to taunt, and a rogue to use daggers? I can't imagine trying to find groups without being able to mez. Nor would I invite an illusionist into a group that is unable to mez. This needs to be fixed.
I'm worried about this too. However I did notice a spell we get around 36 that might be our salvation, or at least something that will get us through it. It's a root/stifle combo. Get your tank to work with you and it could be very powerful.
I disagree! Yes, I am upset that we don't have a mez in the 30's, but we as a class offer SO MUCH MORE and need to help break the 'illusion' that we're only in a group for one spell. Let's just look at the spells between 30 and 39, as we get a mez at 40. 30 - Group Illusion: Human 30 - Nightmare (DoT, -arcane resist, +chance mental DD whenm mob attacked) 31 - Tormenting Visions (Mental DoT, +chance briefly decrease melee dmg) 32 - Ephemeral Apparition (TargetBuff: Invis +power regen non combat, -movement speed) 32 - Construct of Order (Illusionary pet attacks target) 33 - Cerebral Tempest (Mental DD, interrupt, +chance stifle) 33 - Lock Mind (Root +stifle) 34 - Celerity (TargetBuff: Haste) 35 - Illusion: Barbarian 35 - Illusion: Dwarf 35 - Mental Bulwark (GroupBuff: +power, +arcane mitigation, +slight spell avoidance) 35 - Intensity (TargetBuff: +chance additional attack when attacking) 36 - Scintillating Aura (TargetBuff: +intelligence, +wisodom, +arcane mitigation, +power regen) 37 - Phantasmal Grandeur (AoE Mez, costs power periodically, caster cannot move) 37 - Seal of Comprehension (GroupBuff: +intelligence, +wisdom, +mental mitigation, +chance power heal when attacked by mob) 38 - Illusory Shroud (Group invis) 39 - Fleeting Sentiment (ShortGroupBuff: +wisdom, +intelligence, +arcane mitigation) 39 - Aneurysm (Mental DD, +chance to mez) So, to break it up: DoTs: 2 Buffs: 7! (Invis with power regen, Haste, power/arcane/resist buff, additional attack, int/wis/arcane/power regen buff, int/wis/mental/power heal, group invis, wis/int/arcane buff) DD: 2 Chance stifle: 1 Chance mez: 1 AoE mez: 1 (kind of broken, but still) Root/Stifle:1 It looks like we have a LOT to offer a group ASIDE from our mezzes. I agree that the 30's are missing in crowd control in general, and I'd like to see that changed, but I think one of our most important jobs is the simple link between illusionists and crowd control. While we do offer the most options per class of crowd control, we also do really nice damage in the form of DDs and DoTs, as well as some wonderful buffs. We're an asset to any group, whether or not they are fighting enemies that need CC.
You just further illuminated the problem here, Sarasha. So we get some DoTs and DDs during those levels. Our damage is too far below the damage of DPS classes to make our damage capabilities attractive to any group. Chance stifles can be somewhat useful, but chance mez is pretty much worthless. Again, these spells do not contribute anything worth having. AoE mezzes we know are apparently working as intended but are fairly useless besides in certain exceptional situations. That leaves buffs. Buffs are our most important ability besides CC. Breeze, haste, and int/wis/regen buffs can help a group immensely. However, these do not alone make Illusionists more desirable than any other class in almost any situation. So while we are here getting WORSE at CC as we level, but getting somewhat better with a new buff after a new buff, wizards are getting better at nuking, rouges better at doing damage, and warriors better at tanking. Essentially our role in the 30s is defined as "buff bi-tch," even moreso than we are right now. The ultimate question here is: would you want an illusionist in your group (pretending you're not one yourself) with our spell lineup in the 30s? When I objectively answer that question, my answer is a resounding "no." There is simply nothing that an Illusionist brings to the table during those levels worthy enough of filling up a group slot. I really think it's going to be funny when I get into my first group after Entrance is obsolete and having the leader say "you're supposed to mez adds! you got us killed!" "Sorry, I can't...Illusionists don't have mez.........want me to leave?" I've worked my mezzing strategies down to a science, and I think I'm great at it, and therefore am great at playing my class. If SoE takes mezzes away from us, then Illusionsts will simply become bots, recasting haste and breeze on each group members every 3 minutes while maintaining several other int/wis/power regen buffs and throwing some pathetic damage at mobs. I will not play the game without mez. Right now I wish I had chosen a wizard or a warlock, but since I made my decision and am enjoying it at the moment, I am going to stick with it. If, however, I get to 30 and find myself to be a wholefully inadequate class that spends hours LFG, then I will simply quit. It is that simple. PLEASE TELL ME THIS WAS A MISTAKE, SOE. PLEASE TELL ME YOU JUST FORGOT TO PUT IN THE MEZ. Message Edited by Mavin on 12-07-2004 06:49 PM
Just to clarify here. We aren't bad through all our 30's. We are in great shape up to around 37-38 when the groups we are in might start venturing into harder areas. It's the last couple levels of our 30's were the problems will be, not all of our 30's.
Mez is NOT the end all be all of the illusionist CC. If you find that you are lacking mez for a couple levels, go kill some single target encounters with groups and go wild with stun and stifle. Double up arrow mobs are essentially 4 regular ones all bundled together into one big happy basket of pain, and silence on it is like mezzing 3 of them. If you need time between silences, stun. If that is totally unCClike, please correct me. If you can't live without mez for a few levels while doing this, you better be ready to wait; SOE probably isn't going to change it too quickly. If you really have to take on multiple things that the mez won't work on, use root and move around a bit. If the group can handle assist with mez, they should be able to move a few steps for root except maybe in dungeons. It is not the ordeal you are making it out to be in the large number of cases. P.S. I would ALWAYS want an illusionist in any group taking double up mobs that are yellow con or higher, looking at it objectively. And even with multi-monster encounters without mez, illusionists are still very useful with root and stun/silence or AE.
According to spell lists there is supposed to be a mez upgrade at 38.8 - Capture Mind. Is that not being granted or is the problem occuring in the levels before it is received? Also, I don't think there's any lack of design here at all - before they seperated the 10+ mage spells into seperate classes, every skill that was upgraded was upgraded 14 levels after the intial skill was granted. (They scrambled around the levels some when they created the new spells, but the scrambling largely stops by 28-29ish). So, first mez at 10, second at 24 (this was moved to 22 in the scramble), third at 38. Presumably if they up the level cap, there will be one at 52. The mez at 40 is presumably the start of a new spell line, and probably on a different timer. Other examples of the +14 effect - Alacrity at 20, Celerity at 34, Legerity at 48. Constuct of Order at 32, upgrade at 46, etc. - It's all over the place. Note that each spell stops getting more effective after 10 levels. That means that in the 4 levels between the time the previous spell caps and you are granted a replacement, any one skill becomes more difficult to use - clerics have weak reactives in the mid 20s, Conjurers have weak tanking pets from 20-24, etc. Having Adept scrolls will carry you through the gap a lot better, btw.
