I am not convinced it is. I am leaning toward *total* healing. Keep with me for a bit before tearing into this. A lot of the suggestions about fixing our burst healing "problem" focus on a shift in the DH components. I have even suggested such a shift may be helpful. I think I was wrong and much of this *burst healing* issue is purely psychological and is masking the real problem - our actual total Max_HPS over about a 1 minute (or greater) period. That is, I think people are just not comfortable with tanks being "in the red" and so that is a focus rather than the real problem - again - that Templars and to a lesser extent Inquisitors and Defilers simply have a significantly higher sustained Max_HPS. I fear that if we focus on, and are successful in getting changed, our short term Max_HPS (defined as being Max_HPS over a few seconds) and our sustained Max_HPS stays the same, we are going to have the same problems we have now. Let's start with a few facts. 1. A tank at 100% health is as effective as a tank at 1% health. 2. A tank at 1% health is more likely to become a dead tank than a tank at 100% health. So, the question is, are tanks dying with Wardens in the group and living with Templars in the same group because Warden healing is too slow or because Warden healing is too little? I strongly believe the latter is the problem because our sustained Max_HPS is considerable lower than a Templar's but our short term Max_HPS is much closer. I strongly feel the critical difference is the effectiveness of the Reactive (and in the case of the Defiler, the effectiveness of the Ward + Fast, Large heals) and not the small short term Max_HPS difference in our Direct Heals. Examine the following: Big Heal – after 4 seconds 60% of the heal has been applied. Small Heal – after 4 seconds 82% of the heal has been applied. The difference in those heal amounts between a Warden and a Templar Direct heal just cannot be what is causing our problems. Tanks have approximately 6Kish in an XP group (obviously varies based on classes buffing). We are talking about at most, on the direct heals, as a percent of the MTs HPs of less than 10%. That is not the difference between a tank in the Green and a tank in the Red. The problem, however, comes in that the difference between the Regen and the Reactive is *huge*. After 7 seconds an Adapt III T5 Reactive has healed 1200 and an Adapt III T5 Regen has healed 600. This compounds every 7 seconds of the fight. That is, as a % of the MT’s HPs, a Templar, for every 7 seconds of the fight, heals 10% more. After 28 seconds, the difference of 2400 HPs is 40% of a tanks total HPs. That *is* the difference between a tank in the Green and a tank in the Red. If tanks were dying on us in the first few seconds of a fight and living against the same encounters with Templar Healers, then burst healing would be the right focus. I do not experience that happening when I go after challenging content. What I describe above is more to the point. I am unable to deal with the incoming high HPS over about a 30 second period. I think 100% of the problem is the reactives (or the regens, depending on which side of the problem you want to approach it). I don’t think our direct heals are a problem at all. Message Edited by Aaeamdar on 09-26-2005 10:30 AM
You're saying the same thing in different words. Our direct heals are part of the problem with our lack of burst healing; they're not the entirety of it. Our *other* problem with burst healing, the problem we've had since day one of the game, is that our specialty heal is the only one that a) cannot be used up by the time it can be recast and b) cannot scale with incoming damage. This is an enormous penalty to our burst healing capability (especially when you note that this is only part of the story- the cleric/shaman *group* heals do the SAME thing, also on a single target!). With direct heals alone, we actually heal about 20% more in a given minute than a Templar. Add in *only* specialty heals (not group heals, just specialty single targets) and the Templar out-heals us by 30%. The difference is really quite disgusting.
I am not sure I am. I have seen many people suggesting (myself included in a few posts) that a solution is to change our direct heals not to heal more but to simply have an initial larger chunk. That is I have seen a suggestion that to fix Warden healing all we need to do is move from 4x+4.5x (small heal) and 6x+9x (big heal) to 6x+2.5x and 9x+6x respectively. I think that does not help at all. It would increase the amount we can heal over a 2-4 second period but would not change the total amount we can heal over about a 30 second period. I think the later (which is not a *burst* healing problem) is 100% of our issue. If our Regens had the same duration as Cleric Reactives have recast (e.g. 7 seconds, not 14 and ticking once a second not once every 2 seconds), then I think we would be fine (well, I still think there is a serious problem with the mechanics of Group reactives and Wards) without touching our direct heals. Alternatively, they could increase the TOTAL healing on our direct heals (with the same cast+recast). Alternatively, they could give us a third Dierct Heal on a different timer (like they did with Furies). I think most Wardens are focused on the RATE at which our direct heals heal and I am convinced that that issue is completely unimportant to our current problems. Compared to Templars, and to a lesser degree Inquisitors and Defilers, we do not heal enough. Its the amount we are healing over the long run, not the rate at which we heal over the short run, that is the problem. Message Edited by Aaeamdar on 09-26-2005 11:47 AM
Here's where I disagree and why, You said: If I really did have 30s in which to react to the high damage, then I can stack up two more group regens on top of the three single target regens I have. Lets say worst cast you had absolutely no regens up (unlikely), I think the total cast time to get all of that up would be about 14-15s. If I'm netting -hps on the tank for the first 10 of that It should be fine since the net will decrease as I keep casting. Unfortunately, I think the damge is coming in over the course of 4-8 seconds which would be enough time to drop one large direct and a good regen, but is not enough time to get all those regens stacked up. Additionally, it no longer happens at the start of the fight. Mobs are different now, they don't always excercise max dps at the start of the fight. I often find I'm doing great for the first 10-20 seconds, and then all of a sudden my tank is fast on his way to red. Anyway, just my thoughts on what you said. See my other post (10 minutes ago) for how I think this could be fixed.
After giving it a few weeks of intensive play to "re-learn" the following is my experience. Group healing as a solo healer is very very dificult, I get wipes often. I asume that a group is ment to be capable of taking group mobs... well it seems like some of my fears have been realised. When playing the solo healer (lvl 50) in a group (49-52) against heroic mobs white to orange i often experience what i come to call the "flurry healing of inevidable doom". I OFTEN am required to run at full burn for the duration of a fight whenever we fight challenging mobs. The problem is, full burn for a warden is sad... to know that your casting every heal you have, groups and all, all at adpt3 and still the tanks health bar is slowly droping... going... going... gone. Its inevitable, i simply cannot take a group into a chalenging encounter as a solo healer with any chance of success. I feel like a back up healer now, i truly do. If we did not need to heal at full burn.. ie, blue cons... then there is no problem. As soon as the encounter requires you to run at full burn for more than 4 heals your group is going to die. Simple as that. I have memorised the position on a tanks health bar, the point of no return... once they drop to about 55% if your running full burn you can not keep him up... p.s. why the hell does HG stun now that it heals crap all... as in you cant cast any other spells with HG on... how pointless is that spell. I can heal twice as much by droping a Hot and chaining DH's over the same time, and get several nukes in to boot. Does anyone actualy use HG anymore??? Theres lots i like in the game now.. even thou i now heal like mr bean in a nurses uniform, but they still have a lot of things they borked that badly need fixing (/cough tradeskills /cough)
Still not having any trouble solo healing against blue to yellow heroics. Oranges give me some trouble but I "usually" manage okay. My guess is Code is grouping with a not so good tank, but without seeing first hand thats just speculation. I still want to see the difference between us and the Templars shored up however. The Templars reactives either need to be nerfed by 30% (THIS is NOT the option I'd like to see) Or Regens need to be given a boost by 30% in healing power (This IS the option I'd like to see) Our Direct heals are fine, its our Regens that are holding us back. Fix the regen issue and spike damage problems will go away too. 30% more power to our Regens and we'll be on even footing with the Templars again. Besides that, Happy Warden here, but the difference between the Templars and us needs to be corrected. Still not thrilled with our buffs but I can deal. Message Edited by Ravenmist on 09-27-2005 07:20 AM
The numbers actually work out to needing more like a 50% boost to HoTs to match the reactive sustained healing capability.
I agree that regens don't compare to wards and reactives. It was this way back in release when groups would not want Druids healing because when a Cleric or a Shaman was there the tank stayed at 100% HP most of the time. It's a matter of perception and it's difficult to change, to make it worse the regens are really less powerfull. The timer decrease on the regen was a huge mistake. I prefer a regen that ticks slower and lasts longer because I use up less time casting it and it's easy to keep it up at all times on the main tank. I think another problem is that heric mobs hit like mad trucks now on lower level tanks. What I mean is that if you mob you are fighting is higher level than your tank you will likely have to dump your heals on his non stop and for ^^^ heorics, it might not suffice. (at least that's what I experience with my zerk friend)
If nothing else, the recent combat changes have highlighted the core problems with using regens as a sole means of healing. I agree with you to an extent in that druid specialty heals in general are problematic and always will be just because of the nature of how they address the type of damage sustained in combat. On the other hand though, I'm not convinced that these issues will be solved solely by increasing the max HPS that regens heal for or shortening the timers. I, for one, would hate to see improved directs taken out of the equation altogether. To me it does boil down to a direct heal issue because, if you think about it, Reactives are nothing but large direct heals to begin with. They respond immediately to damage taken whereas regens, by their very nature, will always have a delayed response and I doubt that any amount of ramping up would ever make regens in any way comparable to the other specialty heals, particularly in situations where someone is taking a lot of damage in a short amount of time. In my opinion, anything that has to take time to work, whether it’s four seconds, eight seconds or whatever, will never address the problem of burst damage as effectively as immediate health restoration which is something that Wardens in their current incarnation simply can’t do. This is why, I believe, people are saying Wardens need to be able to overcome this inherent flaw in druid specialty heals by having directs on different timers that are either devoid of the backloaded HoT portion or that have that portion significantly lowered. I feel Wardens need to be able to be proactive and gain some ground on damage as it’s being taken since regens do not seem to be designed to work that way. The example you’ve given is that of a tank taking damage. In a perfect world, the tank should be the focus of the healer’s attention. But, of course, since mistakes and adds happen, I don’t think that any adjustment to how regens work, whether by allowing them to pool like reactives and wards, or altering them so they tick faster and for more would be as effective on a non-tank taking damage as a decent direct heal.
I'll second your quote. I do NOT want Templars nerfed. I will be completely disgusted if that's the avenue SOE takes. I think they are doing what healers should be able to do. My preference would be a boost in our DH's, as oppose to our Regens though. I think the regens are ok where they are, I just need to be able to react quick to sudden drops in health (at least, that would work for me).
Actually, what I really want is our regens to actually become responsive to incoming damage. Consider the following. Regen has 1200 points of healing available, lasts for 20 seconds. Every second, the target's health is checked. If the target is damaged, 20% of the damage is healed and that amount is removed from the amount of healing remaining in the spell; when the amount remaining is used up, the spell ends. Suddenly we have a spell with the "flavor" of a druid- regenerating damage- and *with* the advantage of scaling with incoming damage. We, too, could burn 1200 pts of healing over the course of 6 seconds if the tank is damaged- just like a shaman or a cleric. Burst healing would become *much* easier with such scaling. This is the route that I really wish the developers would take, but somehow I doubt it will happen.
Just remember. We are not comparing ourselves to templars only, but rather all the other priests are better then us at healing and I would like to see some middle ground where we can all lie
To both the Group and Single Target HoTs. There are alternatives, however. If you want to balance Group heals with Group heals and Specialties with Specialties, then you need to bump up the HoTs or bump down the Reactives. The Furries got their solution (and I have made no attempt to determine if it was adequate for them) by adding a third direct heal on it's own timer. That could be done for Wardens as well. It would also be fine to just bump up Direct Heals to compensate for waeker Specialty Heals (as was done pre-LU13). Direct Heals would no longer be in balance with each other, but total heal is what matters. Further, though a bit of a pain perhaps, the HoTs could all be changed to 7 second, 1 tick per second duration, and otherwise be left alone. The one place I strongly feel a Shamen/Cleric Nerf is needed in preference to a Druid buff is on the group heals. This shared pool mechanic is going to cause more and more balance issues going forward. It is going to be the CH of EQ2 that over time, as all heals improve, pushes Druids further and further from being able to heal on par with the other priests. For group specialty heals to come in balance (if taken in isolation) Group HoTs need almost a 300% boost in Healing output and unlike the single target HoTs this needs to come with no corresponding increase in power. That, however, would make the Group HoT way too powerful in the rare situation when healing on the entire group is actually desired. It's an impossible situation and the only good fix is to make Group Wards and Reactives place a small Ward/Reactive on each group member in the same way the Group HoTs place a small HoT on each group member. In the long run, I believe the shared pool mechanic is the greatest long term threat to healing balance.
I really like that mechanic. If applied to group regens it would also allow a shared pool like Wards and Reactives. It maintains all the flavour of a regen but shares all the characteristics of a Reactive/Ward that make those spells imballanced as compared to regens as they work today.
I have also been tinkering around with an altered version of the lvl 52 fury heal. What if the Wardens HoT's healed 2x as much when the target is below 50% health. This idea would make us closely compared to Fury's and yet different just like all our other spells. I would also compensate for the clerics and Shamans special group heals.
If I were designing an entire preist system, I would agree with this. My main concern, however, is that no preist be radically more powerful than we are. As things stand Templars are at the top. So my concern is that Wardens are brought into balance with Temaplars. I'll leave it to the other prisets to ensure they put forth their arguements as to why they also should be brought in line with the Templar and when they do, I'll support that. I don't think its our responsibility, however, to do that work.
Ok so let me get this straight, you want the regens to tick slower, lowering our HP/s, but you acknowledge that the mobs hit harder, and that the current, faster ticking regen + direct heals probably cannot keep up leaving us with HP/s that is not high enough. Which side of the fence are you on again? A slower ticking regen is good for solo mobs. A faster ticking regen is better for heroic mobs, but just as good for solo mobs. You just wait a bit longer to cast it, letting your heal drop into the yellow. Since it ticks faster it will recover health, rather than maintain it. The same power was used, the same amount of health was healed, just in a shorter period of time. Where is the bad? Message Edited by Spagma on 09-27-2005 01:46 PM
Though they are up there im not quite sure they are the top. Mystics are doing very well also. Heck they have a HOT better than anything we ever. That ward regenerates also. Might be the best heal ingame. Message Edited by Fingolfin2 on 09-27-2005 11:21 AM
Spagma, I am just saying that I find the old regens that lasted 20-30 seconds a lot more usefull that what Druids have now. When chaincasting heals on a tank that is dying it's though to keep putting regen every 12-13 seconds or so (just before the last tick). The best thing would probably to have different flavors of regens, a fast ticking one and a slow one with bigger ticks. Message Edited by RedDragon44 on 09-27-200511:59 AM Message Edited by RedDragon44 on 09-27-2005 12:00 PM
