im a tank class that cant tank ...? anyone else feel ripped off ?

LOL!
Thanks Kazz.
:smileyvery-happy:

Anytime bro, I wanted to say more earlier but I was @ work, so I will spout off @ the mouth now since it is what I am good @.

I do not know how many times I have heard people call monks practically useless except for pulling, and even then necros or pets can do better.

I agree on the pet pulling and hammer pulling, as the tsunami *fix* screwed me up I do not know about you guys, I have to throw up 4-5 buttons and when im drinking my best friend Ms. Corona that is just too much math.

Anyways, back to the monks = jack of all trades thing.

I have had people doubt my ranged prowess, my dps prowess, my tanking prowess (I suck mostly, but I still have a few tricks left in me from my halfling warrior on EQlive), my pulling prowess (mentioned above). In the end I proved every single person wrong that has doubted me and my class. I was told by a good friend I could not crack 500 dps on ranged, bam I hit like 580 for the fight after our convo. I am the lover of underdogs, and you know what monks have the meanest bite among all underdogs in eq2, which is why I continue to play kazzanova daily.

we all know that you just play to drink corona kazz

Ok. Sounds like you're a bigshot. I mean, I'm happy for ya. Sounds like you're doing well. A wee bit arrogant. But I'm not so sure that entitles you to just dismiss anyones opinions on somethin' like this. Free flow of ideas n' sich. Fresh perspectives? Stuff like dat? Always good, right? No?

Guess I see things a little different. No biggie. I can't really say any of the follow up posts to our little exchange have convinced me of much. Hell, I almost feel some of 'em have just reinforced what I was tryin' to say, but ahh well. I dunno. My opinion probably means little in the scheme of things.

Feels like you guys are Fighters that are Situational Tanks. Made more so by how wildly imbalanced things would be (your DPS, etc) if you guys could supplant the true Tanks (Guardians) roles as the main Tanks. Ah well. Reckon that's just how I see it. Boy, yunno it'd be awesome if somebody from SOE could step in here, but that's probably askin' alot.

Again, hats off to you fellers that've molded your Brawlers into that role. Can't be too terribly easy.

Later!

monk dps is less than some plate class (berkerk for exemple) so imbalance is already here if all you was saying was true ... well ... grass is always greener on the other side of the corona

Good lord Styrkarr,
It's obvious you were not around at the start of this game. EVERY fighter class was intended to be viable tanks -- all equally capable of tanking, although their styles would be different. That is how SOE stated it, and they have never changed those statements. They never said brawlers would be good in certain situations but in most cases you'll like the tin cans for the really hard stuff. I picked my monk because I wanted to be a tank with martial arts flair ... that's what SOE said I would be, and that's what they continued to say with every update. You acuse Gaige of failing to have perspective or being arrogant, but you are taking the exact same stance ... telling us what we should and should not be. Why the hell do you care? We are not asking for nerfs to guardians, we are simply asking for balance for our class. You are simply trolling, and obviously have no concept of the class.

As for wildly unbalanced DPS, a zerker *can* out dps a monk, and I have even seen Guardians and Pallys come close when they concentrate on damage. Give them the same procs and buffs as you might on a DPS monk in a raid, and you will not see much difference. Sure, a monk can out DPS a guardian solo, but that is not what we are talking about.

And as for SOE wieghing in ... this is an old arguement, and every time they have wieghed in, they have clearly stated that brawlers should be tanks. Not situational tanks, not tanks that need "special" help, not DPS off-tanks, but tanks. YOU are carrying the preconceptions of other MMO's as to what a tank should be. You even said that yourself several posts back. Unless you can tell me why we *shouldn't* be tanks ... and other than hand-waving, you haven't done that ... then you are just trolling.

WHAT!!!!!!

There is another reason to play besides Corona?

Hear, hear!
I don't feel ripped off in the slightest. I tank stuff just fine. I regularly group with a lvl 70 monk who's usually our main tank and he kicks butt on a regular basis. Sure, we need different tactics than plate tanks, but it's much more fun in my opinion.

Both warriors can outdamage brawlers regularly, especially while tanking, if they use the buckler double attack line.

Perfect statement.

I dont know. I have both a monk and a zerk. I usually play my monk for his awsome dps and ability to dodge alot of stuff because my zerk cant really do either. He does good dps but the monk is faster and less power consuming. Also ive never played a guard but ive seen them try to dps, and im having a hard time of picturing them out dpsing my monk lol.
But as far as tanking ur main hitting mobs like in roost and such its my zerk all the way. Im more than glad to trade the plate armor and mig for the quick dps, but plate always wins in the end game when u have spells and hard hitting nukes. Thats just the way it is. If they were more alike then id just trash my zerk cause he'd have no purpose.
Message Edited by holystones on 08-24-2006 11:50 AM

Zerk has area DPS, which can DPS 3-4-8 or whatever surrounds him. We are single target DPS, so I can assure you a zerker can finish 3 mobs faster than monk can do 2. On the power consuming side, ofcourse Area Attacks consumes more power. However, in the end of fight, Berzerker will have more power than a monk doing the same "encounter"

Plate or leather, neiter have ANYTHING to do with how much damage you take from a spell/nuke. Plate mitigates autoattack and combat art damage, that's all. You want to alleviate spell damage you need higher resists. Now if plate armor tends to come with higher resists than leather, that's a different (and unblanaced) matter to be addressed.
Message Edited by Quijonsith on 08-24-2006 08:55 PM

In fact they have some aoe are slashing damage for exemple so mitigation count ... and so plate > leather for that.

So true.
And a tons of them are unavoidable so plate > leather + whatever avoidance you can get (ie. Tsunami).

It's sad when a class with 2K more mitigation (zerker) than me (a monk with 96% fabled t7 gear) can come close and sometimes out DPS me, especially when they have better aoe taunts, more taunts, better taunts than I do. I love the monk. I really do. I'm happy to play. But, as far as the topic of the original poster is concerned: yes I do feel a bit cheated and ripped off. Noone says we CAN'T tank at all...the thing is there is A LOT we cannot tank. I tank just fine when needed but there are situations (and I have more HP than most brawlers coz I took the wisdom line) where I get 1 or 2 shotted (with avoidance around 70-80% depending on group). It is also sad that they reduced our % chance to crit damage (INT AA) while other classes (Assassins) get all kinds of mass % crit damage AAs. Hmmm I realize we are not "supposed" to be a DPS class so why should we have a good % crit? But, taking that away...reducing the stuns / stiffles we had before, etc. has really made the monk class much less of a class compared to bruiser. I know...flame away...I really don't care. But it is true...we have group FD, can heal others (awesome), but I'd love to have something that the D&D (table-top) monks have...like diamond skin (mit buff) that hardens the body vs. physical damage. But this is EQ2; I know. I didn't know anything about EQ1 or 2 before I started a year ago...I just played D&D and that's why I rolled the monk. I'm happy but this class just needs a tiny bit of love...it's nearly there. I just keep thinking of an unfinished product when I look at the class. The thing that irks me about SOE is the constant changes that break things. Oh and as far as SOE saying we're tanks because they gave us a taunt or two...ummm swashies get a taunt don't they? They can DPS like mad...better mitigation (lower HP for the most part)... anyway...sorry about the rant. I'm still playing my monk but...I don't feel the same way today about the monk class than I did in March of this year, that's for sure.

Here is a little parse of a "heroic" mob:

My Level is L69, Avodiance was 71.1% (against L69 so-called-any-tier mob) in group...
Mob Level is L65, a quest mob however "a vultak scroll-bearer"


Type: Hit: Swing
crushing 62 104

So 104 "auto-attacks", he landed "62" attack. So 104-62 = 42 (that includes Tsunami also used in fight, stuns, stiffles etc.)

42/104 = 40% of avoidance against a heroic mob that is 4 levels below me.

25 swings are "deflected" (deflection)
6 swings are "riposted" (parry) (and that is possibly only from Tsunami)
11 swings are "missed" (base)

Only debuff he used is "Mangle" which is "Damage" + "C/P/S reducer". So where is our "base avoidance (which is around 40%") ? a Car ran over it?

Yes, I know this mob can be considered named ofcourse, however, that's the table how can our avoidance turn into useless [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] no matter what tier is.
Message Edited by selch on 08-29-2006 12:26 PM

I wrote this earlier in thread

Here is how good we are at tanking atm.

Tanked one of the dragons in PoS the other day (Syamiak) while a Pally took the other 1(Barakah).

We are both dressed pretty much in full fabled/Claymore items. Ignoring temporary miti buffs etc, Im at about 73% avoid and around 4.2k Mit, while he is at about 49% avoid and 5.5k Mit. we were both in similar grps. (yes i know avoid is kinda low but had no dirges)

easy fight anyways with green mobs but boy was i suprised when i check the parser.

Ignoring AE effects etc i got hit 13 times and took 33k of auto attack damage highest hit was about 4.5k. Deflected/Parry the rest or else the mob missed me.
Pally got hit a grand total of 1 time for a whopping 230 damage, all the other attacks he parry/blocked or mob missed.

Was this just an unusual run of the dice? are the 2 dragons that much different in ability to hit a toon and i just picked the tougher of the 2? or are we actually as crap as that parse points to? Yes i did do almost twice the dps of the pally but the healers actually had to heal me compared to the occasional cure which is all that was required for him.

Dont get me wrong i love my monk and i know we have skills that other classes would love FD being a prime example, but surely seen as SOE does class all fighters as tanks there should be a little less difference in tanking ability between avoidance and mitigation tanks. Groups i have no problem with, but it would be nice to be at least 3rd choice of tank at T7 rather than oh dear we have got no plate tank lets not bother raiding today.

We did the same raid again tonight in an effort to get those last few % for Guild level 50, and i actually feel a lot better now.
This time our MT Guard (who is pretty well top geared if you dont count contested drops) took Syamaik and our Zerker who is relatively new to guild and not as well geared as him took Barakah.
This time the Guard took over 50k total damage from Syamaik and was hit 34 times for a max of around 2.5k
The zerker took 15k damage and was hit 12 times with top hit just under 2k.

So my effort the previous week on the same mob as our fully kitted guard doesnt look as bad after all. seems One mob is a lot less powerful than the other anyways (and of course i had the tougher one) and there is a fair degree of luck as too how often you get hit even as a warrior.

I still beleive that we dont scale as well at tanking on yellow/orange content though purely because of the increased spike dps we take. But tbh thats fine with me i dont expect to be MT on many mobs at T7 anyways, and if we were on a par with warriors at tanking top content then we would have to lose some other stuff to compensate i imagine. People have posted that we CAN tank top stuff already, but im guessing that for the most part (excluding a few like Gorenaire) that warriors must be the more efficient option.
Message Edited by Illustrious on 08-29-2006 02:34 PM