Ideas to improve the troubadour class

Change our group debuffs to either:

a) Have 2 versions, one that debuffs the whole group and cost power, the other that debuffs a single targer but doesn't cost any power.

b) Reduce the power cost substantialy, and have it cost more power for each additional mob affected by the debuffs.

the average trouby parses around 500 in raids... (not counting lyceum and hos trash).

the point is, that our buffs are almost worthless is groups..... seriously, groups are where troubadours have problems.....

for a solo trouby, just get the rright aa's... a decent roundshield and a good one hander, for raids... well, just upgrade your buffs, cast them and your basically done.

in groups troubys are unwanted, get a tank, 1-2 healers, fill up with dps and you can take on everything... (except stuff like nizara, but there you need a chanter not a bard).......

Not sure if anyone has been posting pvp stuff here, i dont wanna get owned if i do b ecause its dedicated to raids or whatever but... anyways -

Single biggest issue with troub pvp either solo/group/raid w/e - survivability. We are the only scouts besides dirges without a defensive stance- we have group buffs that aid but it would honestly be nice if our self buff had some defense/parry on it or something like that, Another idea would be to give troubs like a regenerating group ward for like say... 400/500 - wizards have really good wards from AA and ive been getting jealous lately :smileytongue: fighting them and barely breaking through to their hp before the wards pop up again - RoR is bad in pvp unless its a 1v1 and you have time to set up buffs - it pulls you into combat and frankly sucks for the most part. Our Alins serene should have a higher % chance of dropping target in pvp - or maybe put a detaunt on mighty bellow? something like that. Honestly i would be happy with some more avoidance or a regenerating physical ward - how are we supposed to buff a group if we drop so fast? i die in group pvp alot because... people target me first or second if we have no enchanter because of Crowd controls etc - i die way faster than any other scout - even dirge stone skin makes a sizable difference - i dont think anyone of influence reads these threads or if they did they dont give a crap about troub pvp but... just my opinions

our self int/agi buff actually has been a short time defense buff prior lu13. added like 10 defense and 18 parry. in addition to the defense from swan song and opus it made us near invulnerable against mobs up to level 50 (solo, heroic and epic).

with lu13 they not only changed the way how +defense works (rendered useless), they also took away our only self buff for defense.
Message Edited by thorvang on 12-09-2006 05:48 PM

Okay, parsing as a trouby isn't that hard. My guild is a scout heavy guild, but despite that fact, I am parsing 800-1k consistently, and it's not that hard. In zones like Lyceum, I could definately parse over 1k on a zonewide. Here's whatcha do...with my group setup...

Warlock
Conjuror
Necro
Assassin
Fury
Me <<<<<

Kk. First off, you get fire seed, malignant grasp(warlock proc), and assassin apply poison...yay 3 procs...

Now your assassin is gonna jack your Agitate, your conjuror and warlock from lack of int buffs are gonna jack your Vim.

You're gonna run Haste, Dehate, Mana, STR/STA, 45% proc buff...

You're gonna POM most ae encounters, and if you have 30 second PoM, then your gonna PoM even on single targets and parse 800ish... You're also gonna get an acrylia band of strength for DPS mod..

Get low-delay weapons for more procs...I'm using Windrazor and Dirk of Negativety, but I'd replace my Windrazor with a Vampiric Axe of Balance anyday.. I guess you can use a GDOH, I might if I had one, but sometimes that sucks with only 50% haste... So, I recommend lower delay, but that's just me. Proc gear is cool for troubs, too. I see a lot of troubs sporting Fingerbone Manacles, Bone-clasped Girdle, Mystical Orb of the Invoker, and stuff...so that might help too..

DPS mod adornments help alot..lowering the cast time of Eli's helps..lowering the cast time of all your shrills definately helps... Look at it this way..If you can get Eli's down to 1.4 second cast time...You have 2 weapons that have 2.0 and 1.9 delay along with 50% haste which brings those down to a/b 1.2ish or 1.3ish delay..Your dps ring procs a lot...You spam all your ca's eli's, steal essence, shrill, dancing blade, noble blade, sandra's... You throw 3 or 4 jcaps an encounter, and you will still parse in the 900's...on single target mobs.

I'm serious...this is exactly what I do, with an effing Windrazor and Dirk... I could get like another mage in my group like a wizard with gift...if we had a wizard...but you gotta work with what ya have.. Also spam things like Lores and ur snare...they will make ur proc buff go off sometimes..

That's what I do...

Strumma Tune
70 Troubadour

That's a pretty standard group (if not a little weak). It's NOT a group built for a troub. The fact that you're getting some melee proc songs is due to being grouped with mostly casters. Apply poison is standard from an assassin. Really though, neither the necro or conj need to be in your group for dehate.
Aren't you the one who advocates having like a bazillion casters in your group? How is this different than what you run with?

it's different because assasin is in mt group for aggro transfer.

with 4 casters + one druid + trouby (me) i never even bother with any sort of melee buffs....... (i.e. no haste, no str /sta and also no self buff).

those 4 casters are most of the time 2 wizzy's, 1 necro and 1 conjurer. in another group we usually have rangers, swashy all those "useless" fighters and another bard......
there the bard is aggro dump and good for haste....

You're pretty clueless dude...

Maybe our guilds are just super different, but our rangers and swashies usually are close to the top of the parse and do a crapload of DPS. Our warlock, necro, and conjurors do awesome amounts of dps, too, as well as our assassins. No class is useless, and it's always been my idea as well as my guilds, that everyone adds dps no matter who you are...

Including tier 3 dps..

If you have dirges parsing in the 800s and troubs in the 900s-1ks...then that adds dps... Our fury parses like almost 1k in lyceum as well as getting very high on the heal parse...Our chanters also throw up some pretty sick numbers...

Our warlock, conjuror, and necro are going balls to the wall every zone and grab lots of aggro...they get my proc and my dehate...our assassin parses very well and also gets haste and dehate...and also get agitate...

Point is...Troubs can parse the highest if they get people in their groups that they make parse the highest...the more mages the merrier, the least scouts the better, but an assassin doesn't hurt too much...except for that fact that fury can hit u with agitate without an assassin...

Strumma Tune

really, just stop it, i cant have str buff up, i cant have int self buff up and i cant have haste up, due to group setup which im not responsible for......

Gimme a Wizard, a Warlock, a Necro, a Conjuror and a Fury and go worry about the other 3 groups and their dps. I use, although admittedly do not maximize, all 4 of the proc buffs that the group provides. All of these classes get the maximum out of 45% Aria Proc, Alin's and PotM for 30seconds every 1.5min. Our Necros almost always need Alin's or a Pally to avoid peeling everytime they use LB and Tide in the same encounter (ie the burn on the MIS named). My group almost always out performs every other group and I parse quite well even when using Jester's on the Brigs, MT, Coercer or MT group healers ever 30secs.

The first part of your statement I'm totally in line with. My group almost always outparses everyone else, but then, the raid leader tends to put the folks who do the most damage and tend to pull the most aggro with me anyway...
The second part confuses me. Is there a way to use the parse so that you, as the troub, get credit for the extra damage everyone is doing? Or do you mean that even when you cast jester's on those classes instead of on yourself, you still do fine??
-----
And to all the folks talking about troubs parsing 900-1K consistently... how are you parsing and on what???

I meant that I am still doing high end dps despite having to switch targets, cast and re-target.
What everyone needs to realize that DPS is affected by soooo many things beyond type of the mob/zone. Composition of the raid, spell quality of every player, length of encounter, quality of player at every single position. Ultimately, the higher the DPS of the raid, the more likely the troub is to reach the DPS numbers that many covet. If you raid sits at 15k or below, you'll almost never hit 1k. 20kish and you're odds improve with the appropriate weapons, proc gear and masters.

Even though every concern I have with my class is already addressed here, I thought I'd throw out a few concerns at least to keep this topic alive.

My biggest gripe (as a raiding troub) is that we are nothing more than a buffbot that could go afk and auto-follow. Granted, we have PoM, Bria's and Jester's but that's about it. Re-use time of PoM is great but since Jester's is a single target and a long re-use I typically just slap it on the MT on incoming. The rest of the time our DPS is mediocre at best even going down the DPS lines which I tried. So what is it exactly that makes Troub's appealing to raids? Slap us in a caster group and you see some higher DPS and fewer magi pulling aggro... that's about it. I hate comparing our class to others but compared to the Dirge, Troub's really got the raw end of the deal.

Here is a comparison of the Dirge vs Troubadour in a raid environment...
Dirges can revive an entire group in-combat - Troubadour can Charm!!! (no wait, that's only heroics... DOH! maybe grant us a group FD instead)
Dirges can transfer health to other other players in-combat - Troubadour's can grab a soda from the fridge while the raid fights! (why in the world we don't get a transfer power song is beyond me)
Dirges can fear mobs (assuming non-epic) - Troubadours can mez (non-epic) Woot something we can match the dirges with... too bad there aren't many heroic mobs during raid encounters.

While Troub's and the Dirge's have very similar songs in some aspects, there are others that separate the two. Unfortunately, unless I'm suffering from the grass is greener syndrom, it really seems that dirges are more useful on a raid. I chose Troubadour for the Charm and the Mez songs only... I knew it was a sacrifice because the Dirge revive would be really nice to have. Had I known our charm/mez would be nerfed all to heck I would have chosen a Dirge from the start. At this point I'm so disgusted with the class I hardly ever play other than to PL some alts but I have that small glimmer of hope that maybe one day the dev's will make us the must have type of class the bards were back in EQ1. Yes I know this is an entirely different game but we are still a jack-of-all-trades and master of none but I'd like to be at least Adept at something rather than sub-apprentice.

What can the dev's do? For starters, implement instruments into the game and give the bard's different stances... some sort of melee stance or entertainer stance. One stance for DPS and combat skills while the other is more geared for improving songs, their range in an AE effect surrounding the entire raid. Grant us a transfer power song since I hardly ever run out of power with FT items since we are mostly grouped with healers or casters. Take away the conc slot for our solo ability song. Make Jester's cap active on an entire group with a longer re-use timer. For the love of God... give us back our speedy feet... nobody should run faster than a bard (wait, that involves an instrument doh!). Make the Troubadour AA line worth something... as of now, PoM, Bria's and Aria's is about the only thing worth something... wow, there's a shocker.

I know Troub's have felt the nerf stick more than once and continue to get no love. I'm holding in there with the possibility that maybe one day we will have some sort of class defining role that will make us something more than a buffbot. Even though I don't really miss the carpal tunnel days of playing a Bard in EQ1, at least you could really tell a good bard from a bad one... here, your skills as a player is a moot point in a raiding environment. If you disagree with that statement as a Troub, you are full of it.

-Dev

I use sta/str loads in caster groups only for the extra HP, also helps a troub with HP and u actually hit harder with the str. int only raises u to a certain point than it just adds little damage after say 700 INT?

hell we don't even get a FIX stick..
Troubador - Enhance: Aria of Exaltation
(oh and warning..unfiltered swearing in that post by me, the first time it was a joke to PROVE that a dev/mod does not look into our issues..notice that my first post with f*ck is still the same? Since 11-29-200602:48 AM no mod/dev has gone into that post despite the follow up posts by us. I am now trying to see how long it takes before my most recent tirade gets editted or once again proved to be ignored)
anyways, we submitted a pretty big AA bug for TWO of our spells as it also affected bria.. want to guess which class again didn't get a fix in a live update? oh thats right Uthe dev's favorite ignored child

im really close to the last straw here
Message Edited by VericSauvari on 12-20-200602:04 PM
Message Edited by VericSauvari on 12-20-2006 02:04 PM

Though I am a huge fan of reading the forums, i myself have rarely posted,

I've been playin off an on for awhile now since the game came out.

I love playin a Troub, hell i've made 3 of, though i deleted my high lvled pve char because i stopped playing it.

but the one thing that has made me the most mad throughout the past 2 years is that after nerfing the troub, they just stopped doing anything with it. I am almost positive they forgot we existed. Please show us love.

-Hippo

I parse high 1000s each fight almost fully fabled missing one piece that is a major upgrade which is nightchord hat (only fabled i dont have). its all about the proc gear though and buffs u have on u. I can parse easy into the 1600 depends on encounter. but constantly in the 1000 plus range. just depends what u cast and what procs every spell i have 1 to 2 procs going off so its not hard to get up their u just need to look into what gear u want to use. plus adorements

i assume your in a proc group essentially?

-edit- oh..and extdps or dps?
Message Edited by VericSauvari on 12-20-2006 04:47 PM

I have thought of betraying my troubador and bringing them back a dirge; but I live for the days that troubadors won't suck. I understand that they can't have the DPS of an assassin/swashi/etc because we have to sacrifice something for our buffs (don't let me get into those, I'll rant and rave!). It is my opinion that if you are geared correctly and casting your correct buffs for a raid you aren't going to be doing any major DPS as a troub... perhaps I'm wrong.
For example, I went on a raid once where I (my Warlock), and every other DPS in the raid were out DPS'd by the MAIN TANK. Someone wasn't doing their job, hence the volleyball aggro that killed the whole raid.
I've conceded to the fact that my troubador gets out DPS'd by... well, everyone. I wish SOE would fix my troub.