How to add risk back into the game and avoid being BORED? Feedback needed.

I really like the idea of GM live events and things that affect the world, such as a GM controlled epic raid mob to take down, or a dragon that threatens the city, or for PvP server to enable people to raid cities and attack them. I was devastated to learn that I couldn't sneak into the city of opposing alignment and attack people unless they attacked me first. If I could only change one thing about PvP servers, it would be to enable players to attack eachother in the cities. For PvE servers, I have always thought some form of guilds warring could be fun. Instead of the two competing raid guilds smack-talking, they could challenge eachother. What if we had Guild Halls or an area a guild could set-up camp in so to speak..with towers and points to defend, and any guild could challenge them to take it over? That would just be waaayy too exciting. It would also add a new element to being in guild, and give raiding guilds something else to do besides run around grinding instances for gear so they can try to get server firsts. Something else I agree with is live events where outcomes can permanently affect the world around you...if you don't fight off the dragon coming to the city...he will start destroying parts of it....and then in turn it could be a live event to rebuild or redesign parts that were destroyed, sort of like the building of the towers and spires.

I personally have been playing eq2 since november 2004 and the things i believe should be brought back are the citizen ship quests and the class progression quests. back then it ment something if you do an AQ which where HARD. they should also add more things that can be done outside of combat suck as maybe an action house where people go in and bid on items like a real action or diffrent ways to gamble yes i know we have the pig races and the goblin but how many times can you sit there and press the same button OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! I have 2 70's and one of them is missing 3 masters and is raid fabled and is in the top 60's for zerker hp world wide... and right now i am reading this forum because i have done everything in the game and even though i want to play there is nothing to do except PP (which i'm sorry but you can only do so many times without hoping the zone gets deleted) the only fun thing except for the live events (which i love and think there should be a lot more of (that's the reasone we have guides in the game right?)) was the glitch with the gnomish stilts which kept me entertained for many many hours until SOE desicded to take it out. yes even simple things like trying to jump to places where no one else can get and having contests with you friends about who can get there or if it's possible at all is really fun.

SkuaII wrote:

I disagree.
If SoE made the following zones all scale to level (and code it in an automatic manner, so that any new level cap increase was automatically accounted for, and did not require new coding), I would be more than happy for a very long time in this game...
Shattered Stillness : Epic
Nektropos Castle
Nektropos Castle: Return
Nektropos Castle: Tribulation
Estate of Unrest
Poets Palace
Bastion of Flames
Deathfist Citadel
Meeting of the Minds
A deserted Mine
Spirits of the Lost
Echoes of Time
Commune of K'Dal
Icespire Summit
Icebound
The Clockwork Mencae Factory
The Court of Al'Afaz
The Vault of the Fallen
These zones, to me at least, are representitive of what this game can be. They are a mix of raid zones and heroic zones (exactly half of each actaully, although I did not do that on purpose), they are spread out over most of the game world, they have a good amount of lore involved with them for the most part, but most importantly, these are the areas in game I have had the most fun.

[p]There's a tonne of MMO's out there now and more coming all the time. It's almost saturation point, and people are starting to realise that in many ways they're all just the same. Which is one of the reasons that despite my occasional grumble about EQ2 I'm still here in this game. What EQ2 has though in it's system of constant Live Updates is the opportunity to grow and adapt.[/p][p]With that in mind, there's something else happening out there at the moment that's garnering a lot of real attention. And that's Second Life. It seems like what people are looking for now is a virtual place where they can simply be. Hang out. Live.[/p][p]While I'd never suggest they'd copy, if EQ could merge the concept of Second Life with the gameplay aspects of an MMO, they'd have something on their hands that would be truly unique. That would stand out in the crowds of the MMO world. [/p][p]In many ways, they have the bare bones of an environment like that already in place. With their ability to update, grow and change they could take all this great stuff that's being suggested on this thread and voila! Living cities, vibrant and dynamic character and guild interactivity, and surprising/unexpected pve environments. I think a lot of the time when people ask for a new Tier they simply want something that an MMO hasn't offered before. Could there then be character progression (parallel to adventure class progression) in other ways through the cities, which the devs have said time and again they want to remain the central focus, the place that characters always return to; [/p][p]Could characters get jobs? Gain promotions or be fired because they're always out adventuring? Could city status in that sense actually mean something? Surely there are players out there who would love to take one of those un-enterable or empty city buildings and start an actual functioning pub (or get a group of like minded players to form a collective to do so)? Other players could then meet there after adventures and show off their latest loot. What if auto-consumption of food and drink didn't happen in the cities? What if you had to go to a restaurant to eat? Think how integrated the crafting and adventuring communities could really become... Would it be possible to start a newspaper with actual news from the front-lines, the latest political scandal from within the guild ranks, juicy player gossip?[/p][p]"So-and-So Guild beats Woushi! claims their leader Whoseewhatsit. Did it really happen? The Inquirer finds out!" [/p][p]What if guilds could win and lose city contracts? Imagine if a guild could become a Far Seas Trading Company! How about sending bards out as Ambassadors between the cities? Assassins sent out to make an attempt on the life of Nathan Ironforge? Imagine being a wizard and actually working in the Mage Tower. Could a zerker become the Captain of Lucan's personal guards? Could we meet Lucan? What if a GM playing Antonia turned up to a player run restaurant? Imagine the excitement if a swashy stole her purse while she was there! [/p][p]This is just off-the-wall stuff, but added to the game dynamic we already have it could make something that people would just want to spend time in, whatever the game-style they like.[/p]

[p]For those wanting corpseruns, reboot your computer everytime you die. If it's at later levels, go outside for an hour too before returning to computer. You like penalties? Why not create them yourselves? While you are at it, get someone to pull out the internet cable at random times for that little bit of EXTRA risk.[/p]

[p]Thinking about the death mechanic, and how to add risk back into the game, what would everyone think of an expansion on the way armour currently degrades with each death? [/p][p]We currently have 10 deaths before our armour falls off. Other than that, nothing much happens. So you can see where people are coming from when they ask for more risk. That's great for some people and provides a game dynamic where you can just get right into the action, but it leaves others with a feeling of superficiality.[/p][p]What if we retained the system of 10 deaths, but as each death occurred one/maybe two of your equipment slots became unusable - starting at say, 70%. That way you have a couple of deaths that are still risk free. For example, you hit 70% and your gloves fall off, and that slot becomes unequippable. At 60% you lose your bracers and an earring, etc. etc. It'd start to get really scary then, going into a tough zone. And it would become harder and harder the further you went in. The sense of achievement would also be huge if you made it through with just a bit of breastplate hanging off your body. The raiders could feel really proud of themselves if they still were able to take down the big bosses then.[/p][p]If you got down to 0% it could be made that you not only had to visit the repairer, but also the local priest guild. After all, it's the gods who have been providing all these free resurrections and if you abuse their good graces by continually getting killed, you're gonna have to work off some serious penance - such as a series of quests to earn status, or something similar to city writs.[/p][p]If you only visit the repairer (or use a repair kit) and not the priests, you get your 10 deaths back but the next time you reach 0% the penalty will be even more severe, something random - ranging from -10% to your defense capabilities, one of your abilities no longer functioning, a 10% increase in the number of times you get resisted, etc. etc. all the way through to a level loss if you continue to only visit the repairer and ignore the priests and your god.[/p][p]That combines the death system that some players want to keep, and adds risk for those who want to add that. What does eveyone think?[/p]

[p] First, let me say I am a casual player that doesn't have the time or inclination to play for 20-30 hours at a time, so I don't know what thats like. I often play for up to 3-4 hours at a time. [/p][p]I for one say absolutely no changes to death penalties of any kind. I played EQ1, and as someone earlier said, I was afraid to explore beyond general zone lines until the mobs were too easy. I may only be able to play for 1-2 hours at most, and if I died, my entire night is spent trying to do corpse run so I don't lose equipment. theres fun times, spend most of what little time you have running naked through zones trying to find your corpse. Instead, I die and not get heavily penalized. So what. That gives me more reason to keep trying new areas and fighting harder mobs. I'm by no means an expert in playing. But I can proudly say I was able to solo an orange mob (no arrows) and live. In EQ1, I never tried that. I often camped blues because trying anything higher would result in another long corpse run and experience debt that I couldn't rebuild until the next time i played. No thx.[/p][p]I also don't agree with hell levels. Won't that just mean experience grind, which is a boring part of most MMOs?[/p][p] Lets see, what is boring to me?[/p][p]Camping names is one. I know this probably too easy for some people, but if I need to kill a specific name in a zone, I want that name to either be up when I enter zone or be first on respawn, rather than constantly killing placeholders on 20-minutes timers then waiting. Getting Lady Samiel in Sinking Sands was a nightmare. Thats not fun to me, I could be working on other quests/tradeskills. Another related thing is get rid of rare quest drops from rare mobs. I've had a couple of quests for drops from Gulthex mystics in Nek Forest. Getting mystics to respawn can be tough, and the drop rate i need is terrible. For 10 items, I killed about 30 mystics, which took a total of about 70 overall placeholder kills to do. I get bored having to kill stuff I don't need over and over waiting for something I do need.[/p][p]Frankly, tradeskills are boring. I know I'll get lynched for this, but when I played a trial of world of Warcraft, I loved their tradeskills. Have the materials, pick what you want, click combine. You have the item and maybe a skillup. Instead, in Eq2, I sit there and spam buttons over and over and over in order to get the item I want. I stare at the screen for hours trying to get my skill level up. Writs help a little for rewards, but still very monotonous. My armoring is at 68, so I have good armor from it, but it just get boring working on it. [/p][p] In EQ1, I loved being able to do all standard tradeskills with one character (using AAs). It gives that character a bigger variety of things to do without having to start over with money, exp, faction, etc. I know its sad but I dont' twink my alts, I make them do their own work, otherwise wouldn't that make the game too easy and boring for the alt who is overequipped? I may make armor for them if they get the materials, but they have to earn the ingredients first.[/p][p]One of the biggest reasons I've basically switched from EQ1 to EQ2 is quests. I have now completed a little over 1000 quests and 80+ collections. Its more fun in EQ2 because I'm accomplishing stuff each time I play. In EQ1, completing quests was tedious from spending hours/days camping hundreds of mobs for rare drops, while in EQ2 completing quests is usually easier. One suggestion is more variety to quests offered, especially in Tomes. I see alot of kill 10 of this mob, kill 20 of this mob, etc, while the ones I liked more do involve killing some but often have talking to someone else or finding a location, etc.[/p][p]Overall, I personally don't think EQ2 is terribly boring. When I'm on I can chat and laugh with my awesome guildies and work on quests. i've gotten enough experience from quests, I don't even need to go around killing random mobs just to exp grind. I like the reduced risk in this game. It gives me the opportunity to try more.[/p][p]Bolpad Lightbringer (Spirited Misfits) Everfrost Server[/p]

[p]I really think you ought to consider playing another game. [/p][p]I remember hell levels and thought they were awful. YOu notice they are no longer in the game. There was a reason they were taken out -- people hated them.[/p][p]FOr those of us who like Norrath the way it is in this game, we certainly don't want to return to things that made EQ1 a reall nightmare at times. As I said you need to go play another game.[/p][p]The risk in this game is fine just the way it is. [/p]

Hard Mode. Or, at the very least, some HARD group dungeons. Show me ONE other than MM Castle (which isn't THAT hard).

/agree on Hell levels..! Just let us hang out leveling for bloody ages in the shiney new zones. Throw in tonnes of different level raids throughout the tiers. It's not perfect but it will add some of the notoriety and respect to actually reaching cap. This is level 80 now.. I want it to be very hard to achieve. Maybe 70+ is the time that exp debt starts to hurt bad? Or starts to delevel you. People will burn through it I know but for the rest of us give us something to work for. I'm also hoping the mobs in kunark will be absolute killers.. edits = I is Cpt retardo

[p] Turn off XP - that will slow you down.[/p][p]The last thing we need is for Kunark to turn into a Raiding expansion -- remember the failure that was GoD in EQ1 that was a raiding expansion and a miserable flop. [/p]

Durellius, that's a great sig! :thumbup:

Old EQ experience through Kithicor woods, during the day it was fine and dandy and you can run through with no problems. But when darkness fell and night came around, you would be afraid to go past the first log cabin with the undead monsters that lurk about and that were much higher lvl than the mobs during the day. EQ2 needs to bring something like that back to the world to keep people on there toes and make them question if they are willing to risk running through a zone.

[p]Well here is one thing, the Rust Eaters in In the outer edges of Freeport begin expanding outward across the globe and they get a new attack Degrade Armor and evey time they manage to get it off 10% damage to your armor, they wont be difficult to kill, but they can ruin your day especially if the Boss keeps Scores of them in the room just before himself.[/p][p]Kind of like that worm in the raid zone in Zekk I swear I died only a couple of times But I was Nekid and in alt clothing when we took it down.[/p][p]Kithicor still exists, but it is an island soutwest of the Enchanted Lands, but no ship can get easily, the winds die and you can only drift. People start dying as they get close as their life force is sucked out of them and if the manage to land alive, the trees air and plants are all dead, and once night falls they are all Undead as well as the battle remnents. [/p]

Casual player or not, risk vs reward is a central part of having fun in an MMO. In EQ2, there is no sense of agitation and uneasiness, much less fear, when you are near death or roaming near powerful mobs. I also play EvE online, where you can lose 10 hours of work if you go PvPing in nice equipment. You might think that would totally suck, but it really gets your heart pumping, keeps your friends close, and you get good at running . Now, EQ2 is a casual game, so there needs to be a compromise. I think the best approach would be to keep corpse-runs and time-sinks out of EQ2. but add straight exp loss on death. (to reiterate, no repetitive time sinks like corpse runs). If you think that's too harsh, you will adapt. As risk increases, you might find yourself not running headlong into those dark orange mobs, or you might even lose nerve and run for it when you hit 30% health... An added bonus is that good equipment is worth more, because it is harder to get, which makes getting it give a real sense of accomplishment, a feeling sorely lacking from EQ2 atm. This added sense of accomplishment really makes guilds come closer together, and memorable experiences can be much easier to come by when you're "fighting for dear life" rather than just saying "oops an add, we're probably going to die." Believe it or not, meaningful death penalties seemingly lessen the grind. A "boring" quest which once seemed like a grind might actually be engaging and challenging. The engaging part is important, if you are more engaged, you take in more of the game, and might find that the grind was a byproduct of taking the shortest path from A to B. Brad MQuaid (big guy for early EQ1) discusses this in detail, and it really does make sense to have some fear of death when you think about it. (yes yes, his game Vanguard SOH wasn't so good, but that's because he's a bad team leader, and didn't focus, not because he didn't understand mmos.) Anyway, the point of this was to urge all types of players to not go "eww" as soon as they see any type of death penalty. Try to look at the flip side, and remember, no pain, no gain.

First off all, you have to fix some thinks, to make the game harder and more interesting
First of all, make all spells function in the way, they are described. In example the dispel of the mage have no effect on any creature.
2nd Don't script the bosses so that it is useful to use all abillities

And now to make the game more interesting, cycle the abillities of the named bosses. In example on the first time you zone in a zone, the boss drains mana, in the second time he fears ,etc. The cycle of abilities should be randomly. So everytime you enter a zone, it is a new zone for the players. Sure the mobs in the zone are the same, by name, but the abillities differ.

I have an idea, have someone you kill come back after you again and again either undead or even resurrected (What only PC's have access to Clerics and Rez tents?) he levels with you and sometimes you have to fight together most of the time he and possibly others you killed will team up to get you. even in your own HOUSE!

JohnDoe058 wrote:

High death count may also mean that you are unskilled or too stupid to properly evaluate what you can do. It depends also on when you started
on your class and if you raid or not.



And death does not really mean anything in a group or a raid. What should be accounted for are wipes.
I remember my priest dying 4 times in the same fight but we won.


Death penalty should never be applied per player but to the group entity.
A raid/group member killed in an encounter should not be penalized as long as the encounter ends well.

In such a case i would agree for a stronger death penalty.

When a wizzard dies in one of my group it can be his fault ( he agroed)
but may be the tank did also a bad job, it can also be my fault -- was i slow on healing him ? -- it can be lag ....

Note also that death penalty cnot be made too big simply because in many cases death is due to
network or computer failure.

It is a very odd phenomenum in MMO's that runs contrary to most other endeavors. As players became more skilled, the games became dumber and dumber. Instead of the playerbase as whole craving greater challenges in their gaming as the genre matures, we have seen quite the opposite. I cannot really account for this. It doesn't exist in sports and it doesn't exist in any other type of gaming that I am aware of. Why aren't there more MMO players who would like something a bit more challenging next time around? It seems each new game is more simplistic than the last.
Developers are never going to make the move on their own unless they see a demand for a more challenging game. For development houses it is far safer to design their games for the lowest common denominator. Hopefully, for them, even totally clueless people will buy it and play it. Only thing that will ever change this is if players begin to shun the genre as a whole and I do not forsee that happening.
There has to be risk in these games. Without risk they become boring as hell. Games need the old Wide Worls of Sports thing, "the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat". If you cannot fail, you cannot really win either.
I want to be afraid of a zone. I want to have a real risk going there. However, I also want a compelling reason to go there anyway.

Qandor wrote:

Here's a hint: How many sports can you excel in whilst sitting in an armchair?