So it seems like as a healer if i do my job and heal even hitting top of the parse, I get half the tokens i can get if i went dps mode. For example if i sit and heal making sure the tank never dies and only a couple deaths of the dps'rs and we win i get 40-45 tokens. If i say screw it and go dps and ignore the angry scout group chat asking why I'm not healing and we win i get 75-80 tokens and if we lose I still get 40-50 tokens.
I guess they are mostly using damage and points scored to guage rewards. If they wanted to get fancy, they should also consider heals and amount of time you have CC'd other opponents.
I do agree this is a bit of an issue. But the same can be said for tanking. If I taunt it up and turtle down to tank I get fewer tokens than if I don't taunt, run offensive gear and kill mages instead.
"Taunting it up" could be counted as time spent CCing other players. They go take it further and weight different types of CC different values. So a taunt, for instance, wouldn't be as valued as a mez according to the reward algorithm.
Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote: Has said reward algorithm been published? Or has a reasonable model of how it works been sorted out by someone with a lot more time and strong mathematical analysis skills? I'd love to see what actions get what Havoc Marks. Short of seeing such a model, I'll just settle with the classic "if they have a red outline, kill them often" method. I'm not sure that being a healer gives fewer Marks, though ... some of my most rewarding (Mark-wise, as well as being fun) BGs were times when I was in close with my group's tank, healing away and using those combat arts and auto attacks that I could get off between heals. Charging into a mob of enemies and surviving the experience is both novel and exciting.
Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote: I don't disagree, but you get bonus marks for the various little 'tittle events' you get in a match. Hovering over that 3rd icon in the popup tells you what you earned. Kill streaks, death blows, things like that increase your token rewards. Healing your group thru 5 minutes of combat grants no additional tokens. I'm not sure how you fix this other than removing the bonuses that obviously favor dps classes and prioritizing kills over winning.
Roger that, and is a main reason for being curious about precisely how Marks are awarded for pre-trophy conditions. Even when focusing heavily on healing I usually manage to pick up 2-4 trophies, which certainly contributed to higher Mark payouts. Keeping a group (especially the tank plus yourself as healer) alive for a long time, especially when you can use at least one PBAE to get at least one hit on all enemies that get close, is a good way to build up a kill streak ... and often results in the ending of enemy kill streaks (there're two trophies right there). Not to mention the chance to get in a kill shot (another trophy). Oh, and if someone kills you and then you kill them back, you get a trophy "vengence killer" or something like that. Part of me--you know, the part that wants to be a healer and keep my group alive when they bother to stay close together--hopes for trophy revampage to recognize the efforts of healers more. But ... I'm not certain that it's really necessary (as I noted above, healers CAN land a number of trophies even when they are mostly just healing). Or maybe a weekly token reward quest to supplement the dailies; I kind of miss "questing" when I'm in "OMGBGs" mode--and two quests per day max is kind of, well, lame. I would like a weekly with a large mark payout for achieving significant quest objectives (with steps in each of the BGs) , or some other dailies for other interesting objectives ("capture all towers in Smugs in the same match without being killed", etc.
Perhaps awarding tokens based on heal amount in the match? Every x healing amount awards a token, for example.
Tumultuous@Nagafen wrote: I'd honestly consider bonuses for: The top x healers in zone (1, 2, or 4 depending on match type) The top x damage taken in zone (1, 2, or 4 depending on match type) And it would be cool if somehow the people with the most CC used also got a bonus, but I'm not sure that is currently tracked, but shouldn't be impossible to add.
I don't see how we're penalized. Everytime you heal or cast a buff in combat on a teammate that participates in killing an enemy player you get credit for that kill aswell (I'm pretty sure landing taunts counts as participation in a kill too). If anything it's easier for healers to get tokens based on kills. I'm a defiler and it's not too difficult to get at least 1 death blow per match. The Revenge and Streak Ender ones are a bit harder but I'm getting 70-80 tokens at times in ganak/smugs mostly in a healing mindset and doing damage when I can. I could be wrong but I don't think the actual amount of damage/healing you do really gains you anymore tokens. I'm thinking that it's based mainly on kills and collecting rewards.
Top-in-role sounds reasonable to me, too. It'll likely end up rewarding only folks with the most elite gear ... but I suspect there's enough variation in the games that folks who are only somewhat geared would be able to be top if they play very well or are pitted against less geared opponents ... or when the other members of their team deny the opposition the ability to do their jobs. Yeah, I think it could work.
Snoops@Antonia Bayle wrote: That's what I was thinking when I said I wasn't certain if something actually needs to be done. I guess it may boil down to "how many Marks do each class get when they play their best"? Do straight DPSers get many more Marks than the folks who have to work for a living? (So to speak.) 70-80 Marks is a good-to-great BG run for me, too; although I suspect that my average payout is closer to 50ish. How do other folks fare? I'm sure that elite players who have great gear and coordinated teams (instead of lame gear and at the mercy of the group builder) have the potential to make the 82 Marks I got in my very best match look pathetic.
I never see that many marks in Klak. I'd say I probably average 50ish there for a win and in shorter matches. I think it's the tendancy for the other two maps to run longer and have more people so you can actually get up to those 50 or 75 kills/kill streak medals and I'm betting those give some bigger bonuses. I don't have any other characters that I seroiously BG with though to compare, althought my buddy who's main happens to be a pally is reporting similair numbers. I haven't bothered to ask any dps classes as of now.
Snoops@Antonia Bayle wrote: See how often you get 'Death Dealer' on a healer. Also being the class that everyone beelines too, I find it harder to get the kill streaks that are worth more tokens. I run regular premades, and the dps classes will pull 80-90 marks regularly and the tank/healer 50-60. Its clear to me there is some favortism in the system the way it is setup just based upon our premade results over a few hundred matches. Sure we're all having fun, but our dps classes are getting the level 92 gear faster for sure.
I can get death dealer virtually every match casting my AEs and swinging 2 hander at people. Been doing some research and I'm getting comparable takens to the dps in my groups. Dps often gets a few more, like 5-15 but not the gaps others are reporting. I am mosty queing with 1-2 friends and the rest is pickup.
Snoops@Antonia Bayle wrote: In our guild groups, the dps classes are pulling on average 8-12 more marks than tanks and healers. Its not alot, but when you do 20 matches a day, it sure adds up.
I play a warrior, crusader, shaman, cleric, druid, predator, enchanter, sorcerer, summoner and rogue in BGs. I would consider my self a somewhat hardcore player. Through experience of almost every single class in game at 92 in battlegrounds since the update hit, I can tell you there is nothing wrong with token accumulation for healers. Also yes i've ran in premades, and as previously stated the t1 dps class often gets maybe, 4-6 tokens more at most. The only things we usually miss out on are revenge kills, and killing blow, however both are possible to get. This totals up to almost nothing reguardless.
Bobonice wrote: Think thats bad its worse for tanks ... my wizzy can get 60 + tokens on a loss and I have gotten bout 95 on a win max in my crap gear ... while my monk gets 20- 40 on a loss . My mystic gets about mid or same as my tank. It definately favors dps and not even completing the game requirements seem to enhance the marks number so now we have folks grabbing the flag and trying to fight to up the marks rather than winning fast and efficiently and getting back to another match. Bg's are not pvp right ? Its goal oriented... supposedly...
Running BGs with people in the same room, I can tell you that the healer gets 7-12 less tokens than the dps classes, and about the same as the tanks, unless the tanks are doing some heavy dps themselves. Then healers are defintiely on the short end of the token allottment. - Amybelle
