Guardian Class Issues/Solutions

Immune to strike through in defensive, mend, FD, Tusami, self cure, death save. Brawlers are doing just fine compared to a Guardian. I can't compare brawlers to a Crusader or Berserker though.

Toranx@Crushbone wrote:

The problem is if they bring the other tank defence down below guardian it would make then useless a Mtank in raids. Why you would use a tank who can't survive as easely ? This was kinda the problem back in the days guard where the ultimate defence tank and it is why they upped everyone else defence.

yzyh wrote:

I can tell you that they are not going to bring the guard up to the OP state the other 3 plate tanks are. That is evident by the tweeks they have posted the guard will be receiving and the adjustment to fighter heal crit. So one can only conclude that they will be adjusting the other 3 plate tanks down. How far, no one out side of the eq2 team can be sure of ATM. With them saying they will be releasing class descriptions and how they will be used in the game, I wouldn't expect no more then 2 class if that, that will be designed to preform MT(raid) role.

Toranx@Crushbone wrote:

Pallies competing for the MT spot seems really odd, since they also have the tools to be an awesome OT. Aeralik wanted to fundamentally change the class (remove amends, make them an "ST tank") in order to have them compete for the MT position.
Aside from Guardians, Brawlers (especially Monks) seem like the most natural choice to compete for an MT spot, since they usually aren't going to be able to tank swarms of adds.
EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking about some theoretical "Fighter Revamp 2.0"...not about how the game is currently.

Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Paladins have to change quite a bit to be well designed for that role. IE, Aeraliks design of making the ST focused. It's neat and tidy to suggest one of each archtype be MT/ST focused and one be OT/AOE focused, and if your going to do that its Guard/Pal/Monk on the MT side and Zerk/Sk/Bruiser on the other.
But none of that actually stood up and held water. The amount of fundamental design changes required simply didn't makes sense in an established title. If you were starting new, you might consider this design, but its too much change to get into this game.
I lean towards Toranx's stance that only a couple will be MT designated, but my own vision for the classes aligns with that.
With how the classes are currently designed, and looking at the minimal amount of change needed, I see something that looks vaguely like this:
MT - Contested between Guardian and Paladins. They're the most defensive natured when looking at core abilities. More needs to be done to segment them from the other tanks in handling ST spike damage (yes that might mean lowering others, it might mean raising them). I see the option between which of them you might take to be more governed by how you might build an MT group more than anything else (once they are balanced to each other). One should be more melee orriented, the other more spell orriented.
OT - Contested between SK and Zerker. Both classes can be tweaked to excel at this role, but not simultaneously compete for the MT slot due to thier survivability. Certain survivability abilities need to be addressed to affect this. And again, I can see group makeup determining which of the 2 you might want more.
Recovery Tank - Monk/Bruiser. I honestly see them in a roll of a recovery / rodeo clown fighter class. Giving them the best abilities to deal with agrodump / recovery. They should have more snaps where other fighters should have fewer and rely more on pure hate generation. Look at restoring drag, etc to their former levels of usefulness. I would say they should be the only fighter to get target locking abilities. Then add extremely powerful short term abilities like tsunami, but make them even a bit longer. They should have the ability to get immediate aggro and hold it reasonably well for 30s or so, then go thru a 'burn out' recovery peroid. Placed in this role, they are justified with being aloted the highest fighter dps potential.
When I look at 6 fighters, 24 man content, and designing a need to consistently bring 3 fighters full time, and encouraing one of each sub-type, that is the type of design I lean to at a high level.
I feel reasonable adjustments can be made to effect this high level design.
* Note: The above outlines raid roles for fighters. I feel in heroic content, they all are capable of getting the job done. I think groups will favor the OT classes for heroic burn content, reocvery tanks with thier dps levels would be the next choice, and the MT raid class remains the least desirable (but still capable) group tank choice. I know others will have problems with that statement, but I think its only fair to be top at one content type, to be lower in others.
** All should have the ability to generate raw hate needed to keep things pointed at them regardless of content.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Yeah, those roles make sense, but Pallies would need to be nerfed/changed so much so that they aren't simultaneously the best MT and the best OT class that it might be easier to give Guards an edge in survivability and have Pallies compete more for the OT spot. Paladins have a ton of blue AEs, so I'd imagine that focusing them on single-targets would not go over well with many of the current Paladins.

Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Forget about ST/AoE abilties when thinking about MT/OT. While it has impact, it isn't the most significant part of playing those slots.
Keep in mind, all that matters for MT is the ability to take very large relatively infrequent hits, where OT is about taking more frequent smaller hits. It's a simplification, but when you think about it, it holds true for most encounters. If ST tanks rely more on stoneskin type survivability abilities, these are very effective on ST raid bosses, but OT encounters can/should be designed to hit much more frequently. In this way stoneskins expire nearly immediately. Where OT classes should rely more heavily on reactive heals, aoe lifetaps, and have abilities designed around taking less damage the more mobs they engage, or perhaps react better to more frequent smaller hits. Imagine if Adrenaline was changed such that it only worked on hits less than 50% of the tanks HP. It becomes an awesome OT ability but far less useful as a MT.
The Paladin can infact retain most of their blue dps abilitiy and still be a MT contendor. What they need changed is ST hate generation ramped up, and perhaps more spike damage management; both at the cost of removing all hate components off of blues.
At a high level I would start with:
1) Change amends to a single target maintained taunt providing large hate on one target over time. As passive hate overtime, this should allow them to focus on defensive abilities / heals when required. They can not retain amends in its current form as it alone allows them to compete for either slot equally.
2) Change one or two of their current blues to abilities to assist with short term spike damage. Most likely changing them into stoneskins, but other possabilities exist.
3) Remove all threat and hate positions from thier current blue/green CA's.
4) Rework Holy Ground into a ST hate position over time, perhaps like the orriginal version for each hit on the mob game a hate position.
I'm sure there are many other ways to accomplish this, but if fighters were to be balanced to the three raid roles I laid out, this is the general direction I would go with Paladin.
I totaly get what your suggesting by leaving them more the same and having them also compete for OT slots. I just would prefer the MT slot be contested and not have 3 fighters competing for likely one OT slot. Paladin is simply of the 3 the one best suited to be adapted that way. And I really don't want to see the game with one defacto MT regardless of which class it is.
The most difficult part about what I suggest is its back tracking from this perverted notion that all tanks should have the tools to tank all content. That is a juvenile idea in a game with 6 fighter classes.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

I would luv to see this the concept and role for Fighters. Really in my mind SOE is not too far from acheiving a template like this other than a few abilities from some Fighters needing tweaks.
As was pointed out Paladins would definitely need some things changed. Changing Amends into a ST type threat ability and HG would go a long ways to bring Paladins in-line for that ST role. That would move them from being one of the best OT AND MT to being one of the lesser choices for OT and more of a choice for MT.
Honestly with Zerkers and SKs I don't see a lot that needs to be changed. Its hard to imagine what could be done with Adrenaline since it is such a powerful ability for OT or MT. Maybe as suggested, changing it to be 50% damage reduction if inc damage is less than 50% of Zerkers health. Or change it to be 50% damage reduction to physical damage (meaning less likely to want to be in on the big named mob doing the big AEs).
Brawlers are pretty close to being the recovery tank right now. Brawlers have far superior survivability for like 30-45 sec over any other tank, and they are abilities that are on a decent recast. What I don't like about Brawlers is the fact that mobs don't hit very hard physically allowing Brawlers to hit mitigation levels to easily become just as survivable as Plate tanks ALL the time. Either make mobs hit harder, or lower their mit.
It will be interesting to see what the "roles" coming out are. My prediction though is that they will make the roles extremely vague and it really won't change anything.

I feel in heroic content, they all are capable of getting the job done. I think groups will favor the OT classes for heroic burn content, reocvery tanks with thier dps levels would be the next choice, and the MT raid class remains the least desirable (but still capable) group tank choice. I know others will have problems with that statement, but I think its only fair to be top at one content type, to be lower in others.

This is the only problem I have with your view Atan.
2 Tanks best at OT.
2 Tanks best at MT.
2 Tanks bets at Recovery/DPS.
Why do the MT tanks have to be lower in group settings? Because they're the best MT's.... Why can't the OT's be the least desirable group tanks because, they're the best OT's.
You've gone in a very good direction then slapped on the Archaic clause that has always effected Guardians for no apparent reason. Some instances/group setups should prefer different tank types but outright restricting them is stupid when you're talking about balancing them well in a raid setting.
The MT classes would need the stoneskins/blocks to absorb the bigger damage as you stated, same goes for the OT classes needing the Heals/Health siphons to absorb the smaller sustained damage. Outright damage reduction is something that should be avoided unless it has conditions attached as you gave an example for the Zerker, without the conditions it encroaches on the other tanks turf.
I do believe though that both tank types while specialising in their area should have 1 ability that crosses over, this would help with the heroic balancing and mean at a push they can fill the other role.
EG.
Guardian - Last man standing/tower of stone/block to handle those big nasty spikes. Stone Sphere (proposed changed version) to handle lots of smaller inc damage for short durations.
Zerker - Adrenalin/Heal procs to handle lots of smaller inc hits and gut roar/wall of force to handle the odd large spike from a single mob.
These 2 classes are almost balanced as you've stated with the exception of Adrenalin reducing ALL damage by 50% and the large descrepancies in DPS/Hate.
The heals however are harder to balance than the % reductions and the stoneskin abilities, as is currently being shown in the heal crit nerf. Make them useful in 1 area and you overpower them in another, bring them down and you make them useless in 1 area and useful in another. The only way I can see these abilities working correctly would be to have them segmented like the Inquisitor "Verdict" spell where the buff will heal them for different amounts based on the mob level (heroic/solo/epic) or it's arrows (vvv, vv, v, - , ^, ^^, ^^^, x2, x4)
% HP won't work since you'll get large heals off solo and balanced heals off raid mobs, and % hit amounts wouldn't really work since you'd get large heals of epics which would encroach on the MT classes abilities. So the amounts need to be set but they need to differ for content types.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Sure haivng a single defacto MT class would be bad but expecting all 6 to be equally viable is not only unlrealistic but its applying rules and standards to one archetype that are not applied to any others.
Take healers.......4 of the 6 are considered "defacto" MT healers.....your MT group will always have a cleric and/or shaman. Not too mention that almost always its Templar and/or Defiler. Nobody really questions that....yet tell a SK or Monk they were not meant to MT raids and .............

key skill need fixing in tank classes are there stance how much hate can do in there stance
when useing shield and 1handed weapon only doing 6k dps not going hold hate when player going full out dps no matter wot you do this go for zerk to only classes like sk pally geting away with this becasue right now dps = hate
i my self dont find it funnny when seeing sk useing shield and 1 handed weapon doing more dps then zerk in dps stance dw so fix there dam stance
we need toall fix in hate system for all tank not just guard if any tank cant hold hate with out haveing build there toon on dpsing it wrong
i dont mind loseing dps when useing shield when mting on my zerk wot i dont like how bad hate is
and dont ask be only mt raid tank lol that toall wrong fix hate system for all then look at both stance wot class need give up do there nice dps if not doing mt or oting
and about instance run when useing guard why cant guard have some aoe hate not same as aoe dps is it as long all tank can hold hate it dont matter wot tank you use

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Honestly, its the nature of the beast.
Considering OT abilities are going to be about soaking large amounts of small hits, ae agro, and ae dps focused. They are naturally going to be the best choice for a heroic turn in burn run. They'll simply be able to pull more and kill faster due to thier ae nature and inerhent survivability vs small hits.
I don't see a way of them not being preffered given the tools they should be given to fill that role, unless there are some 'nizara' type instances out there that have mobs that hit too hard to be aoe burned.
Soul_Dreamer wrote:

I like this idea, and it makes sense for each to have a single ability that crosses over. So long as it is only a single ability, and not too over powered to that end, it makes sense to be there.
Adrenalin with the under 50% health restriction fixes the ability, and as you said aligning gut roar or wall of force as a tool for spike damage from a single mob (stoneskin proc or % chance to stoneskin for x seconds) is reasonable as the one cross over ability.
SK's though, I'm not sure the 3 tick CH of bloodletter doesn't start to let them cross over that line. I would consider changing bloodletter to keep the death save but only heal 20% per mob currently engaged. Fighting ae adds it remains a complete heal. Fighting a single target mob it scales back significantly. Currently it applies to both equally.
Anyway, I don't want to spend too much time hashing out the tiny detail parts, not unless Sony was seriously considering this layout for fighters.
I want to believe its a workable sollution for all of us, and to be honest, every other model I've read or come up with myself had too many holes in it.

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

This sollution is the only way I can accept fighters getting the full effect of crit and cb on heals. It amazes me so many of us feel pasionately that we should be able to heal as much as we currently do.
Ultimately, I don't think soe will go the below route. This is what will happen, and any of you can throw it in my face later if I'm wrong =)
1) This heal crit nerf will go in, and data will be reviewed post nerf in particular to paladin healing.
2) If the data indicates it was too severe, we'll see the former heal crit aa changed back to something that enables just their heals to crit and possibly allow some caped % of CB applied.
I'll be shocked if anything is done about it till it goes live and people post hard data.

Bruener wrote:

Bruener you keep saying brawlers have the same damage mitigation as plates and your a lier, show me the parses on the hard hitting mobs not the easy mode crap scouts and priests can tank. I have the numbers and you continually lie about this. Plates go 4-5k above a brawlers mitt IF THEY PUT ON THERE MAX TANK GEAR which they dont because unlike brawlers who give up all dps and change stances they dont have to to tank. And it makes a huge difference on average Inc hit and max hit over 20% difference. Going over the Mitt curve makes a huge difference plate tanks can do it Brawlers cant.
So make your points with out lying all the time, I'm getting tired of seeing you post the same lie over and over, Because plates tank in offensive with no tank gear on and equip a shield and run 12-14k mit and get there uncontested avoidance is the only reason they seem to take more damage.
ACT doesnt lie I see the numbers, you however do lie

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

I did not say that there. What I said is that Brawlers can hit mitigation levels that make them just as survivable as Plate tanks. Yes their mitigation is a little lower, but since mobs hit like sissy's this xpac it moer than enough to survive any physical hits...yes harder hits are coming from AEs now. Meanwhile much better uncontested avoidance more than closes the gap for damage they take. So either mobs need to hit harder to make the mitigation difference meaningful or Brawler mitigation should not be able to reach the levels they do. Our Bruiser can MT any mob in this game and take less damage than me easily because not only does he have more than enough mit to cover the difference but his avoidance is way higher due to higher uncontested avoidance and immunity to strike-thru. That combined with the abilities they do have on a pretty short reuse makes them an extreme force to reckon with for ALL the time tanking instead of just recovery tanking. Oh, and before somebody starts on the DPS loss...he can close the gap on his DPS loss quite a bit simply with his +skillz adornments.
This is all in the theory that Brawlers should be Recovery style tanks. Now if SOE decides to make them equal MT and OT choices and not Recovery tanks than some of those reuse timers need to be extended.
Edit: Oh, and lets not forget the additional damage reduction that Brawlers have as well, which correct me if I am wrong but is for ALL damage types.

Bruener wrote:

First of all Monks get ZERO% damage reduction, your little gap is 4-5k mit if the plate tank actually goes defensive in both gear and aa selections which they dont and im sure you didnt either because you know you dont need to. Your little gap is 20-22% on hardmode mobs in inc melee damage.
You dont need a recovery tank when the other tanks never die and have craploads of deathsaves and there own save abilities, save abilities have been handed to every class now they are hardly brawler exclusive
The dps loss from gear swapping alone is huge and no amount of plus to skills can replace that, hit rates drop 15-20% or more going full defensive and I have the adorns in every slot.
You clearly say lower there mit, in your statement when our mit simply isnt even close when it counts, maybe to truly make brawlers a recovery tank which btw is a bs position and shouldnt even be slotted in the game as any tank can grab agro if another tank dies leather should be the only class with 100% limitied duration damage prevents and deathsaves to truely make that recovery name really have meaning.
Any tank can grab a mob pop there crap and live 30 seconds with deathsave triggers and damage reduction abilities running in this game today. Not every tank can MT, OT , Have great ST agro, great AE agro, DPS in either a tank role or DPS role, and out TPS almost every tank but some can currently.
There is blatantly obvious advantages to certain classes in both herioc and raid instances, mitt is the least of these problems but the reality is mitt does make a big difference at the highest level. Thats the only place it matters as the herioc content is getting soloed and boxed and run through by groups with no tank.
On the mobs that count the progression hardmodes the contested the difference per hit is huge and noticable. The avoidance if a plate ever actually took the shield AA and shield block gear is almost the same. Uncontested avoidance mainly comes from gear choices and AA, the plate tanks never take shield block AA because again they dont need it. Brawlers have to load up on block gear and or AA to tank effectively.
I can't Imagine that you dont know and understand this, so your reasons for continually repeating the same BS are beyond my reasoning.

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

Your right, and if you read my post carefully, I implied all other tanks would lose most snapping abilities and get more raw aggro generation instead. Deathsaves generated from fighters are probably too prevelant. Placing more of those deathsaves as buffs from the recovery tank instead of self buffs of other fighters makes sense. Remember the Recovery Tank role is as much or more about dealing with agro wipes as it is dealing with a tank dieing.
If we had the 3 tank role scenario I put forward, yes it means removing some things from others to make each of the set roles more defined to that role.
Every tank can't have stoneskins, multiple death saves, and 5+ snaps if we're going to have 3 relatively clear tanking roles.

Bruener wrote:

Seriously, what you dont like about brawlers right now is that they have the same survivability as plate tanks all the time? Thats the point! We are all tanks! Brawlers where broken and now we have some survivability equal to other tanks yet still brok imho as we have less dps and aggro then the plates. And no one is biting that brawlers have to much mitigation hell scouts can obtain our mitigation.
And Sorry we tried that whole tanks have a role deal and brawlers got shafted, NO THANKS! There is no reason to segregate any tanks from any tanking role, it doesnt work!
And as far as MT/ST roles throw that out the window also all the content is multi mob encounters.
If you are so threatened by brawlers Im perfectly fine with making us T1 DPS, sorry quick oh crap snap aggro stunts are done by swashies and brigands already.
Lastly if guards are broke fine make them equal to the rest of the tanks, there is no reason they should have any special ability/role over any other tank. And any guard complaining they cant get a group in instances ROFL!!! Try being a brawler!!!

Not alot of data yet as we got our first hardmode Construct kill, but in dual tanking it with the pally heres a quick overview. In about 350 slash attacks on the pally the highest hit on him was 20,800, on the monk now I only grabbed the memwipes and only had 46 attacks on me the highest slash hit on me at about 13,500 mit was 29,200.
The average hits were pally 11,200 monk 17,000 roughly 35-39% harder hits on the leather tank with the much lower mit as we both went full defensive. So to put it to rest on the endgame game real hard hitters there is a huge difference much larger and in favor of mitt tanks than the avoidance gap. Altho the numbers may be off some due to only 1 kill and a small sample, I'm sure there wont be huge changes in those numbers once I get more pulls and a few thousand attacks to compare.
Now yes on the much easier content we are equal in the tanking ability, we still suffer in the ability to dps while tanking and agro generation on the lesser mobs as we have to go defensive stance.
I don't dissagree with whats being posted here for the most part, but I totally dissagree with anyone who says leather tanks have comparable mitt its absolutely not true when it counts. And on the easy mode mobs so what leather tanks should be just as capable as any other tank class thats why there called easymode.

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

Very well said . In addition to all this yeah I am constantly having scouts clowning by pulling mobs before me and tanking them then turning me and telling me I pull to slow pull faster it improves their parse and they can catch aggro so watching aggro is not an issue they are wearing metal and can tank anyway though massive dps we know they have now . Even watch sorcerers which i have one btw tank Halls . Either its do I try and survive or do I increase dps to hold aggro . goodness I have seen an sk aoe ability that nukes encounter for more damage than any of my CA's on single target as well as hits and ticks for more hate then Peel does , and peel was supposed to be a big deal SK's get that ability in the 20's I beieve ...sec , ok Grave Sacrament VI at lvl 88 so yeah they get this around 20ish wtf ?? How can we compete with this lol ... this has a huuuuge nuke tied to it also without need to dump aa into it it is immense and the reuse is 3 min meaning the potential is 1.5 minuites . We are monks/bruisers so far behind the curve we can just get by in a group where the players are not well geared and not soing a diff zone . We should also have aggro locking abilities but imo we are the only tank class without , no amends no hold the line or zerker equivalent which pwns the guardians so how do we compete ?
Point being these plate classes have so much survivability and aggro abilitites they have been afforded a very enjoyable gaming experience in their AA selection damage increase ? aoe damade increase ... sick mode survivability . i forget the name of the guy bu tjust the other day was fighting in ant WF a zerker who has a raid on him for 15 min no less maybe more . Watched some of our side just give up and call home couldnt kill him he was solo and we had more than a x2 on him to say the least . Brawlers cannot compete with this . Guardian sphere could get u close though .. very close and the more mobs on you the greater the effect regardless of how hard they hit you . heck even with tsunami on we can still get killed/ hit . 100% avoidance does not mean you avoid 100% of the time ... at all , why that is idk just the mechanics . But i dont even play my monk anymore really cause he has tanked most of the easiest zones and those I have tanked for know I am good and can hold my own dps wise , wont out dps plate tanks and survive as well or hold aggro as well but can get by . However for palace and vigilant I stopped even asking and they may be right w/e I rolled a pally he's lvl 23 they may be nerfing them but they will still be able to do their job and some . Heck at lvl 59 in BG's i noticed Pallies out healing my mystic by quite a bit and my mystic sometimes beats wardens on heal parse or total output w/e .
But yeah I digress AA selection is where I feel brawlers get the shaft instead of just giving us 1 or 2 aa abilities we need to get over the hump and survive it takes our entire choice selection to barely get by . Notice that the heal nerf doesnt have monks screaming foul ? meditative healing has never crit . I would be highly upset if it did and the nerf came in but it doesn,t . Prevents a 1 shot but get 2 shotted quite easy and the way mobs flurry now , well heck everyone flurries now that they can all adorn it its an easy 1 shot in wffect making that ability almost useless just gives the healer a chance to pop something on us when otherwise we'd be dead .

Maybe it's just me but the thread seems to have deviated pretty far from Guardian Class Issues/Solutions. The entire last page or so has been a fight between plate wearers vs. brawlers.
Any chance we can get back on topic?