higher lvl=higher skills=uncontested=block pwns and raist, log in Message Edited by redict on 01-23-2007 01:29 PM
So basically now you're agreeing with me... Block is the avoidance check that matters in Epic fights... not Parry or Defense. Massive increases in Parry/Defense will have a minimal impact on the tanking abilities of a Paladin. The true issues are the lack of true defensive measures to deal with spike damage and the ability to keep the baseline of damage to a reasonable level. If you look through my old posts you can see a direct comparison between my Guardian and Paladin tanking Vilucidae. The incoming damage is significantly different even though both are equally geared. Now, if youre arguing the fact that a Paladin needs drastically better gear to do the same job as a Guardian, then I agree. However, the Devs will NEVER give equipment of that magnitude in order to balance Guardians and Paladins out. Asking for that is just foolish. In the end... believe it or not, Im arguing the same points Phov argues here... and I really dont know a Paladin who disagrees with Phov. W Message Edited by Anariale on 01-23-2007 04:30 PM
Armor should enhance what is already there, it shouldn't be trying to replace what isn't there now. My point is that even if we had great armor, we'd still have issues as tanks since everything we get is balanced against abilities that are not working as the devs seem to think they do. We are healing tanks, so they give us less HPs to compensate. Never taking into account that as a tank, you are getting hit and thus healing yourself is a joke. We have wards, so they give us less mitigation to compensate, but never take into account that the ward doesn't scale like mitigation does and thus isn't worth a [I cannot control my vocabulary] against epics (plus it gets interupted at the least convienant times) What good is the armor if you still have less HPs than the guard and have no answer to Stone Sphere and Tower of Stone? What good is the armor if you are dead on the initial pull because you have no way of handling the excessive damage of the pull? It'll look nice on your corpse I suppose... In the end, equipment can't fix the problems by itself. I'll admit that this armor (the more I look at it) isn't what I would want for it's effects, compared to some of the other classes (hell the wizards get some stupendious DPS addatives with theirs...) and the guardian armor (except for the chest piece which they think is a joke)... So I'll agree with everyone here that this armor isn't what we need. But even if it was what we thought it should be, it wouldn't fix us.
Iv always said block was key. Where i disagree with you, and with Phov if this is how he feels....is the fact our problems are at the core of our class. The MAIN reason guardians are better is their 'o [I cannot control my vocabulary]' abilitys in tanking. We infact do get one, its just overlooked cause it was constantly being broken then refixed then broken again, and thats DA. No one takes it anymore because its too unpredictable in its current state...or at least when i last used it. I do disagree where u say massive increase in Parry/Defense will have minimal impact on our tanking. I think the paladin nitch is avoidance and blocking.
if they gave us +block on our stuff/defensive stance, we might be ok, but it still doesn't solve the problem of how do you justify getting the gear when you need the gear to get it in the first place? Again, LH doesn't scale, while Tower of Stone does. LH gives a fixed amount of health back, pretty much regardless of if you are self buffed, group buffed or raid buffed. While ToS does scale to the damage being done.
Tower of stone doesnt scale? its just stone skin at the cost of damage % on ur tower shield. Like 2 or 3 triggers of it, i cant remember exactly. And im not saying youll need the gear to get started. On a heroic level with that equip, for the most part, guardians and pallys are the same. They have a few abilitys, but its not overpowered in the lower part of the game. [I cannot control my vocabulary] even early raiding...labs...Lyceum and so on, the difference between guards and pallys are still small. Pallys double FINE as the MT in these zones. But when you get up to MIS, Chel'drak, EH, FTH, DT, last few mobs in HoS and so on, the difference becomes more appearant. Why? Because now the guard is using his guardian gear, and the paladin is using his paladin gear. Notice how the difference is most appearant AFTER the gear upgrades?
IM sorry wyrd, i have a question for you, didnt you hit the easy button and roll a guard, and lose faith in the class that we all set out to know and love? ive been at work all day, and missed alot of this thread and have browsed though it there have been alot of valid points made, but some things are frankly bs, to which im not going to get into anymore...its pointless to sit and aurgue the same topics in every thread, bottom line is our class needs help, if people cant see that and continue to say its fine, then they need to experiance one day in the life of a tanking/raiding paladin then tehy will be sticking thier foot in thier mouth...end of story...
that was a typo, i meant to say 'Tower of stone does scale?" His post sais it does, but it doesnt. Its not that i should read posts before responding, its i should read what i type before clicking submit post
Paladins need help, not equipment tweaks. Modifying the hardest pair of leggins to get in game will do nothing to help paladins. As for your question, yes I rolled a Guardian, leveled to 70, raided and beat pretty much all KoS content before burning out. I came back in EoF on my Paladin and am playing again. I kinda handed the guardian to the guild so they could use it as needed, so when I came back, Im just playing the toon on the account. W
ToS does scale... ToS absorbs 3 hits, no matter how much damage. If the hit is for 5000 damage, it absorbs 5000 damage. If the hit is for 10,000,000,000,000 damage, it absorbs 10,000,000,000,000 damage. Thats called scaling. Compared to a Ward from a Paladin that heals for 1400 HP. If we get hit for 300 damage, the Ward rocks. If we get hit for 5000 damage, the Ward is meh. Thats an ability not scaling. W
our perception of scaling is different. When you say 'an ability scales' to me i take it as its attributes and effect adjusts based on the level, skill and difficaulty of the encounter. ToS does no scaling at all, it doesnt adjust, it doesnt change based on the target. Its 3 hits, no matter the damage, it will take 1 of those 3 absorbs even if its a hit from a grey, or from red, its still going to absorb that hit regardless and use 1 of the 3 effect triggers.
i never said we needed equipment tweeks i said the 4% cod proc is bs i said our class needs help, thanks for basicly repeating what i said,
........block: constant tos, tos:cast with recast, conclusion=more block,parry,defense closes the gap between guardians and us
To me, scaling is when the ability is effective regardles of the effective target. ToS scales with the mob Paladin Wards, Heals and LH do not. They are static amounts or ranges. So in effect, While ToS is crap at the lower enounter range (since it scales down to that point) it is beyond amazing at the upper range since it will absorb 3 hits no matter how hard they are. Our ward is what our ward it. Be it a grey, a solo, a heroic or a epic. It doesn't scale at all.
sorry i just dont see ToS as a scaling ability, its a flat 3 stoneskins and wow this thread has changed topics a lot....
and btw, we have this flat stoneskin with our blocking ability calculated up to the cooling down time of ToS on par log in raist!!! Message Edited by redict on 01-23-2007 02:25 PM
