Either make gray cons attackable or make red cons unattackable.

Borias@Venekor wrote:

Perfectly worded and very accurate if the mechanics of pvp were fixed to reflect true mitigations and resists. What you guys should see is miss/miss/miss/parry/miss/resisted/resisted/resisted but you don't...there is the problem.

[p]Bassman wrote: [/p]

[p]First, 6 lvl 65's will still kill a solo 70 regardless of what he does. You can come up with a million ways in which it matters that they can attack out of immunity -- and it's jut not true. They're going to kill you, regardless of where you are. When it comes to contested raids in a 4 level zone.. i agree that a 65 group can really screw things up and that miracle powers to evac the tank away from immunity are BROKEN. There has to be a reasonable solution to the raid mobs in a 4 level range w/o borking the rest of the pvp ruleset. The charm/evac thing is dumb. When you charm someone in pvp it should put you into pvp combat, and thus you shouldn't evac. This is an exploit, and needs to be fixed ----- NOT ADD 30 NEW RULES! Fix problems, don't engineer new ones. Systems design 101, honestly.[/p][p]Second, the 24's will continue to attack the 41's. They may not attack the 51's or the 61's like they do now, but the 41's will still get killed. At 41 they've got 1 tier of gear on the 24's, 1 more master 2, and if they fix the skill vs defense of grey vs red, a 41 will be CHALLENGING for a group of 24's.. not the cake walk nearly-soloable they are now.[/p][p]Bassman wrote: [/p]

[p]A good number of people HAVE said to remove the ability to attack reds. They want more immunity from pvp, for crying out loud. But you're asking for, FFA pvp, simply won't work in Eq2.[/p][p]Bassman wrote: [/p]

[p]You're talking about removing the level ranges from all zones. This isn't a flick of the switch. You think it will be 2 simple rules that will result from that? Have you ever developed a system before? I have. Changes of this type, ones that affect fundemental rules of the system are generally not "simple", and don't usually result in "not a lot of coding". [/p][p]Let's leave alone the fact that you're changing the basic foundation of the entire pvp system -- the forced honor system that prevents gankage and protects lower level players from high level ganks. Let's leave alone the fact that you're asking for a SoE sponsored system change that will, at it's most basic level, force people to level up and play the game the way you'd like them to. We can sugar coat it, but you're not asking for FFA pvp to fix the problem of greys attacking reds -- and you know it.[/p][p]Bassman wrote: [/p]

[p]Greys can't sit around and wait for a chance to grab free fame. If you choose to engage in combat with greys around waiting to nail you -- that's your fault. The contested mobs in small level range zones -- that's a different story, and from what I read the devs are in discussions with T7 raid guilds working on that issue right now. But if you pvp in a zone where folks are going to jump in and attack you? That's pvp. If you don't like moochers, don't hang out where they are (and are unattackable). But if some come along? As soon as they engage, they're open season for you.. just as if you'd tracked them down to kill them yourself. And yeah.. you should scout them to see if they're a threat or not, before ignoring them.[/p][p]Bassman wrote:[/p]

[p]The example wasn't a 70 stealing a named, but preventing someone from getting it themselves and saving it for a friend. And btw.. your answer to "give up and go cry in a corner" when someone beyond a reasonable level tries to prevent you from playing the game is pretty illuminating.[/p][p]Cuz that's absolute bullcrap. Letting someone higher level molest lower level players is R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D! It's a system that opens the game up to constant abuse, and will make a dwindling population evaporate. Keep pushing for it though. This isn't Sullen Zek.[/p][p]Bassman wrote:[/p]

[p]Yes, i've read about sullen zek and all the super uber things the higher level guys did to police the system. Fantastic. [/p][p]Relying on the player base to provide a fair and enjoyable environment for your game is like an MMO tossing their subscription base up in the air and saying : "Hey, you guys catch it! We trust you!!" :roll:[/p][p]In my experience, when you call ANY pvper to come kill someone, there are only two things that will keep them from coming to help. 1) They're not able to kill them. 2) They're already on recent. The whole "help me" - "no, i can solo them, bite me" exchange is dumb, and it doesn't happen that way. But there just aren't a steady supply of 70s in the lower zones. You can't rely on someone to come along -- or even be able to make a difference if they do (i've seen 70's take on groups before.. and send them packing). Low level twinks? They're going to come to help kill someone if they're not on recent.. trust me.[/p][p]This whole paragraph has nothing even to do with the topic at hand. IMO, you have an agenda against level locking in general, and that's why you want FFA. It's not about the disparity between grey vs red fights for you, is it? It's not about attacking from immunity, is it? Honestly, i don't mean this as an attack, but I think you should be honest about your intentions, and i think that your intentons are about making people level up to end game because you dislike level locking.[/p][p]Bassman wrote:[/p]

I don't disregard the notion. I give examples why, i explain to you that it will most likely destroy both the existing and future player base. I apologize for my rudeness, but i'm hardly alone on that score.

It's an exploit and needs to be fixed. When you charm someone in pvp it should put you into pvp combat, and aggro his/her whole group. Period.

Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:

Agreed, and i'll add -- even when you see miss/miss ect... many of your secondary effects will STILL LAND on them (decrease to attack speed, ect.. many debuff carriers on attacks will land)

Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:

[p] This basically agree with my statement entirely:[/p][p]You took the option to engage a red, and unfortuneately you dieing because, while in combat, you couldnt get away fast enough from us.[/p][p]When you didnt engage, you made it away or evaced.[/p]

Exactly, in my case my pyreshield (M1 w/ aa points also since I am secondary conj for raiding, Doike is our #1 conj) should be burning the crap out of lower levels yet the damage is highly mitigated...almost as if they were equal level. Just the buffs and procs of some level 70s (especially those in raid fabled gear from EOF zones) should pretty much own the grays...hope I live long enough to see it dealt with.

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

[p]Yes and no. C'mon, you don't expect me to easily agree that I just agreed with a Freep while trying to argue, do ya? My only point was I was involved with something that wouldn't let us evac away, or get out of harms way in time to take advantage of our superior movement. Like I said, poor judgement on our part. Well, more on my part. My brother figured we'd get creamed, and you guys know how big brothers can be convincing, even to a 36 year old "kid". [/p]

Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:

Fact is, sometimes in PvP you will die. The irony in this is you attacked a red, couldn't win, then got attacked by grays and died. And of course you can't always run. Track, however, helps you get a head start.

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

[p]These are two statements are exactly what us red cons have a problem with.[/p][p]It should be the greys that are running from reds. The other statement isn't true either. We don't choose to fight them or not until after the grey's choose. Here is where the problem lies. If a grey is standing next to me in any zone, he should be scared for his life, not stand there, taunt me to no end and try to kill my god pets. [/p]

Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:

[p] I /rofl'd at that What toon was i on, btw? I don't remember the engagement to be honest.[/p][p]I pvp with my brother a lot, though he's taking a break these days, and i know some of those brother-brother discussions can be difficult after a revive [/p]

Greys shouldn't be running from reds, they should be safe from them, but in general -- they shouldn't be taking them down like a house of cards in pvp. That needs looking at.

[p]Boz, There is a big community in exile these days. It is entirely FFA pvp. It works just fine. In fact, if you look at the top pvp kills leaders they are probably in Exile. [/p][p]This server was merged with other servers recently because guess what... they were dying. There are so many reasons why people are upset with this game its not even funny these days. Level locking is just as dumb to me as you think letting reds gank greys is to you.[/p][p]When people level up, the game takes away the ability to openly killing people that are x levels below you due to the zone you are in. Because you level up, you don't get the chance to attack a group fighting mobs and try and take down as many as you can. One level difference and you can no longer take out that bot group farming in RoV and get the named for yourself. In fact, you have to wait until all 6 of them are whaling on you before you can even begin to fight which is complete BS. Why punish people for leveling and working harder?[/p][p]If this server was sullen zek ruleset, I'd probably have enjoyed it a lot more than i do these days. The Justin's of the servers would have definitly been put in their place.[/p][p]I tell ya what. Sony, do us all a favor please. Don't ever let reds kill greys.. let them continue to level lock. This way in the future nobody will want to level up because you let everyone else besides those at end game enjoy the benefits. In fact, lets all reroll alts and stay in T2. Yea thats it. We won't ever need to purchase another expansion from you guys again. No more extra money, no more need to expand the code because your budget doesn't permit it. Shoot. lets all just end this game right now before the new games come out.[/p][p] [/p]

[p]Raike. I saw that and thought "Oh, crap, twinked to the nines and me half dead without SoW." The worst part was yelling to my brother "No, keep going, I'm meat!" and he still kept coming. He probably would have made it if he'd kept going, too ... gotta love the loyalty between blood.[/p][p] [/p][p]*edit* Oh, and I'm sure it wasn't memorable for your gang. We couldn't have been more than a speedbump for that one. But stuff like that is what makes PvP so damned addictive; the adrenaline hit and not knowing if you're going to make it. [/p]

[p]First of all, greys should only run from reds in Unlimited zones, unless of course you are asking for FFA PvP or for zone level restrictiosn to be taken away.[/p][p]Secondly, even if they grey decides to attack you, its still your choice whether or not to fight back, like my quoted statement says.[/p][p]Accordingly, i have crossed through all the parts of your post with are now redudant. [/p]

Bassman wrote:

Grats on getting to 70 and pvping exile. I see 1 out of every 100 people in my levels as an exile. Spare me the big community stuff.. you can't say that ffa is a working model when barely anyone does it because as a lower level player you're mincemeat.
Bassman wrote:

This server? which one? Naggy? The EU Servers were dying, and now vox is dying. Venekor and Naggy were fine, and are good now. Are there people that leave the game? Sure are.. and plenty come back too, as do new players. I can see how you'd wand to put and end to that though....?
I'm glad you've at least admitted that your agenda here is about level locking, not fixing the grey-vs-red mechanics. I get it that you don't like it, but it's not your game, it doesn't belong to you. You can't take your ball and go home. The rules are there to protect players, and the devs are changing the game to be more fair for level lockers. I'm in 100% agreement with them, and support their efforts.
Bassman wrote:

LOL, i've been that guy in RoV farming names and a group of six chasing me off. Attacking them first wouldn't make a difference.. So i got my lower level toon, got a few friends, and killed them. Then went back to my business with a bit more faction
fyi - i'm for returning the previous zone level limits to what they were to allow you to protect yourself in higher tiers from things like this. in rov if even one of them was within 10 levels, you should have been able to engage. In ant/cl? 8 was a fine level limit. In sinking sands? Unlimited works for me.. don't know why they changed these. The only level that's right is T1.. cuz those zones should have the 4 level protection. but beyond T1, IMO, the 4 level restriction should be removed, and the previous zone limits restored.
Bassman wrote:

"Let me kill greys and gank away because it's more enjoyable for me than fighting people my own level". Is that about an approximate translation?
Bassman wrote:

I'm officially done responding to you. You've exposed the fact that you're about killing greys becuase you don't like the way they play the game. You have no interest in the grey-ganks-red problem, and no real new solution or information to offer to the debate. Thanks for keeping things civil, but i don't think we need yet another "remove locking" thread discussion.

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

that's exaclty what he wants and is asking for

[p]Bozidar wrote:[/p]

[p]If you were on Naggy from the beginning you'd know just how many people have stopped playing this game. After the merger we are probably still at half the numbers we used to have.[/p][p]I admitted that I don't like level lockers, I didn't however say anything about not solving the grey vs red mechanics. I believe what I've been saying is that the mechanics are NOT broken as long as you allow the reds to attack as well. If you change the zone levels, and put the mitigations and spell resists back in, you are doing the same thing but you are also allow the reds to easily gank those who are green now. If you change the level cons and leave things as they are, it basically (in a smallers numbers of removing caps all together) is exactly what I'm referring to. I , however, am saying why not remove the caps all together except for T1 zones.[/p][p] Bozidar wrote:[/p]

[p]I can go into RoV and kill off a group of orange bots while solo. If they attack me I need to finish off the guy I'm trying to gank or I'm done period. If they attack me first I don't even see if I can get away, it usually means insta evac. How in the world can you say to me that them attacking me first is the same outcome if I am able to attack them first? The difference in these examples is night and day. Believe me when I say that being able to get the jump on anyone is a HUGE advantage at any tier.[/p][p]If they return the levels to the way they were, then thats fine with me as well. It isn't a total FFA situation, but it gives the lower tiers what they want and the upper tiers what they want. The only problem is still the spires are located in some of the zones that will still be considered lower levels. This also doesn't give us solutions to trying to take down avatars in some of these lower level restricted areas either.[/p][p]Bozidar wrote:[/p]

[p]You must be a bad translator, so let me explain it to you since you can't read between the lines. Justingrell used to use god abilities, warp away, charm mobs and send them to attack you until you had 10 or more on you. He did everything he could to exploit the system and still does today. With his level 45 he used to even attack and successfully kill some level 70s that didn't know of him or the traps he'd set for people to fall into. This is the type of guy that as a level 70 I shouldn't have to put up with period. If he comes near me I should be able to grief him repeatedly because I leveled to 70 and I deserve the right to kill anyone I want to. No where in this or previous statements did I say I go out of my way to find and grief anyone because it was more enjoyable than fighting people my own level. In fact, removing level caps would only ENSURE people not my level would stay out of my way.[/p][p]Bozidar wrote: [/p]

[p]Again, when someone starts to make sense to you, you pull a "I'm done with you, you suck because" card. My only interest in discussing this with anyone on the boards, let alone a level locking punk like you is because I want to make sure the Devs consider removing level caps as a viable solution and don't discard it because level lockers like you don't want your crap pushed in. Level lockers should be considered Reds in their own right compared to most of the newbs at those levels anyway. [/p][p]Why doesn't Sony make it so that anyone with over 10 more AAs than you in a 10 level cap zone can't attack each other unless the person with less AAs attacks first and then we'll see how you like it when 6 of em are standing around you and have the first attack *grin*.[/p]

[p]Just to make it clear:[/p][p]You don't think that the disparity of what damage a grey or group of greys can do to a red con ridiculously above their level is a broken mechanic? Did you even read this thread?[/p][p]It's far far too easy for greys to take out a red these days, even those very very much higher level in them. The mechanics around this are broken. I'm not talking about oranges 7 levels higher, i'm talking about guys 30 levels higher, 40 levels higher.[/p][p]I don't think you suck, I just don't think you're interested in having a debate about this topic. You think that because you leveled to 70 you have the right to kill whoever you're higher level than. I'm not interperting that, you said it yourself. So you want FFA.[/p][p]Attacking first isn't going to change the fact that it's broken, it just means that way more greys that are not prepared to fight reds are going to die horrible deaths.[/p]

Here's my two cents for what it's worth.
FFA will just open up a field of ganking like you wouldn't believe. Greys will run around with a lvl 70 babysitter non stop just to make sure the group of greys never lose vs. color'd cons. Reds will kill anything and anyone just cuz they are bored. Reds will make the lives so miserable for xping noobs that they'll just move on to another game.
Making red's non attackable won't really fix it either but it would probably be the easiest way to fix the problem.
SOE already uses curves for everything in the game based on con color or lvl (not sure which though). IMHO if they just made the red con's curve steep as heck so that the greys have a 1/100 chance of nailing anything from melee to casted stuff, they'd think twice about attacking a red. That same group of greys travel to an 8 lvl differential zone and now that same red is either yellow or orange con to them. Now the curves aren't so steep and they have a very good chance of killing the dude.
All they need to do is tweak there formulas a bit on there diminishing returns curves, or whatever they call it and the problem should be fixed for the most part.
P.S. The red cons should have a damage bonus of some sort too vs. greys above and beyond what they already have......

I just wanted to put this out there, since no one else has mentioned it. When the pvp servers first opened, players were treated the same as mobs as far as level range differences. Gray players had the same penalties to hit a red player as they did to hit a red mob. It wasn't uncommon to see a higher level player utterly destroy multiple groups of lower level players, even greens. The development team purposefully removed (or greatly decreased) those penalties to make pvp more fair. A lot of people here are saying that groups of grays killing a red is a broken mechanic, forgetting that this particular mechanic was purposefully broken. Maybe what has happened though, is that so many other things have changed since the beginning that it is a mechanic that needs to be looked at again.